Mit Karacho!

[chuckdyke]

Just now, George MC said:

although shared spotting info will give a spotting advantage  

That could have happened when I play against the AI most of the time, they get the first shot if I lead with armor. It is usually a combination of ATG and armor. I am happy to accept the fact the AI-Trigger doesn't spot but generates a tactical response which makes spotting first a probability. 

[Codreanu]

11 hours ago, George MC said:

Thanks for your comments. Glad you enjoyed it

We’re your Panthers buttoned up? The gunners sight in the Panther has a very narrow field of view - like looking down a straw. Great magnification but troublesome for finding targets (narrow forks of view). 
 

The weather conditions in this mission also place the Panthers at a disadvantage as their ability to engage at range is nullified. 
 

Operating the Panthers unbuttoned and in close contact with the grenadiers (dismounted in close terrain) helps with IDing enemy positions. 
 

Thanks again fir your comments. 
 

Cheery!

I did have them buttoned up but there was some infantry in the area and wanted to play it safe, plus some of my nearby infantry already cut down the tank commanders of both of the SU-76s so I figured that would have evened the playing field a little. I think trying to hit the SU-76s with "target area" HE was a bad idea too, instead of stunning them like I hoped it would, the muzzle flash just made it easier for them to see me. Do you know if all tanks have the same spotting ability if they're buttoned up or not and how open topped vehicles like the SU-76 play into that? Even with their commanders dead I guess the rest of the crew would still have much better visibility but I don't know if that's modeled.

 

As for the weather I completely forgot to check it, does poor weather increase the difficulty of spotting closer in targets as well even if it's within the maximum sight distance? That would also make sense logically but I don't know if that's modeled either.

[George MC]

1 hour ago, Codreanu said:

I did have them buttoned up but there was some infantry in the area and wanted to play it safe, plus some of my nearby infantry already cut down the tank commanders of both of the SU-76s so I figured that would have evened the playing field a little. I think trying to hit the SU-76s with "target area" HE was a bad idea too, instead of stunning them like I hoped it would, the muzzle flash just made it easier for them to see me. Do you know if all tanks have the same spotting ability if they're buttoned up or not and how open topped vehicles like the SU-76 play into that? Even with their commanders dead I guess the rest of the crew would still have much better visibility but I don't know if that's modeled.

 

As for the weather I completely forgot to check it, does poor weather increase the difficulty of spotting closer in targets as well even if it's within the maximum sight distance? That would also make sense logically but I don't know if that's modeled either.

Yeah Panthers (if not most tanks) will take longer to spot if the TC is buttoned up. Though as you mention having the TC capped by infantry small arms equally recues spotting ability!

The gun sight in the Panther gives a field of vision at 2.5x mag of just under 500m at 1000m (IIRC). Though the drill for Panthers was the TC spotted the targets and talked the gunner onto acquiring them. Though again I'm sure most tanks would sue that method especially given the sights used at the time and the primacy of the MK1 eyeball (with binos) in spotting. FYI Soviet doctrine was generally for attacking tanks to be closed up but from personal accounts I've read many Soviet TCs would still stick their head up to see what was going on.

I think you are right that area firing would indicate your position and it was this the SU crew most likely spotted and engaged on.

I'm not sure how good SUs are at spotting. In truth in playing the game they seem (personal impression NOT proven!) they seem on a par with tanks i.e. if TC unbuttoned then spot quicker, if TC buttoned then yup takes varying time depending on variety of factors e.g. experience, suppression, what potential target is doing, as in things moving and firing are always easier to pick up than something sitting quietly observing.

IIRC in Mit Karacho there is light fog and its not long after dawn so poor light conditions. The LOS/LOF tool indicates the maximum distance you can area fire to but spotting to that range is very variable and more likely for practical purposes to be very much less (although does depend on what activity the target is engaging in, if been spotted by friendlies and that contact shared etc). In short spotting is a complex process and has some degree of variability.

There is lots of advice on this forum about players take and approach to managing this. Mine? I use my tanks in pairs, if close terrain then keep them close in pairs and ideally team up with dismounts who can scout ahead and spot targets and then share that info.

So in short all of the above is modelled - though how much and how accurately is the stuff of forum debate. Note the game uses a 'spotting cycle' which can sometimes cause some weirdness.

But 'seeing' things is filled with weirdness. Just today a guy about ran out in front of my car (doing 20mph) even although he seemed to be looking right at me, and I spotted him from 50m and thought "hhm he's going to chance running" and covered the brakes. As I drew level with him he made to run but his missus grabbed him - he looked surprised and was obvious he'd not clocked the large white car meters from him. Spotting cycle must have been against him  

[chuckdyke]

I read somewhere, an AFV is best to be unbuttoned to share C2 with infantry who should be 32mtrs (4tiles) or less from the AFV. That's what I go by and sure enough by the end of a turn you see the contact icon with the AFV. Have a veteran crew's vehicle unbuttoned from a tactical advantage point to do spotting. He will soon share his intel. 

[Erwin]

Am sure this has been asked b4, but am curious if a passenger on a tank helps with spotting.  One doesn't want to have a whole squad exposed like this, but what about a single guy or a two man team?  (Kinda like it make a big improvement to have a single extra guy in a BMP.)

[chuckdyke]

25 minutes ago, Erwin said:

am curious if a passenger on a tank helps with spotting. 

Depends on who he is. The tank commander has the map and the binoculars. Your passenger needs to be a squad leader at least. A veteran with morale on OK. The BMP needs to be unbuttoned? 

[Erwin]

On 6/20/2021 at 7:24 AM, chuckdyke said:

The BMP needs to be unbuttoned?

I can't recall what optics a BMP has - maybe it depends on the version.  But, IIRC spotting for a BMP is improved both buttoned and unbuttoned if it carries at least one extra chap.  There are old threads explaining how to ensure that 3rd guy is seated in the commanders seat as that seems to make a difference as well.

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 5/17/2021 at 6:51 AM, George MC said:

This mission is based on the one in the von Schroif campaign BUT the map has been extensively reworked, the Soviet AI plan has had a total overhaul, slightly different objectives scoring, different OOBs. So whilst it appears similar it is very, very different.

Good to know, actually I am still at Schroif Campaign mission 3, but I have finished reading the campaign briefing PDF File so I remember the conversation between Oberstleutant Voss and Hauptmann Hans von Schroif.  

Glad to know those are two different missions.

 

I have finished my PBEM game . I was playing German side, a minor defeat but I still consider a big win for me because

1,  most important , I have fun. This is a fantastic scenario . I play this scenario blind and I believe my opponent also play it blind 

2, I saved the trapped KG, they lost 1 Pz IIL, 1 Sdkfz 251 and couple infantrymen but in the end , they still have good combat effectiveness.  

 

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 6/19/2021 at 2:43 PM, Codreanu said:

 I think trying to hit the SU-76s with "target area" HE was a bad idea too, instead of stunning them like I hoped it would, the muzzle flash just made it easier for them to see me.

Yes, as George MC  mentioned below the weather is tricky in this scenario.  The effective spotting distance is less than 300m for AFV, but the muzzle flash will expose the shooter's position, make the shooter a light bulb in a dark room.  

You can still area fire but it is better to let the shooter hide in a good cover position, let couple more AFV to overwatch the same direction.  

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Chibot Mk IX

[George MC]

On 8/9/2021 at 9:42 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

Good to know, actually I am still at Schroif Campaign mission 3, but I have finished reading the campaign briefing PDF File so I remember the conversation between Oberstleutant Voss and Hauptmann Hans von Schroif.  

Glad to know those are two different missions.

 

I have finished my PBEM game . I was playing German side, a minor defeat but I still consider a big win for me because

1,  most important , I have fun. This is a fantastic scenario . I play this scenario blind and I believe my opponent also play it blind 

2, I saved the trapped KG, they lost 1 Pz IIL, 1 Sdkfz 251 and couple infantrymen but in the end , they still have good combat effectiveness.  

 

Thanks for the update. I think you did well there - especially to save the trapped unit. Great effort!

As equally important is you enjoyed it - that's the key thing

The von Schroif version is very different - so be interesting to see how that pans out.

Thanks for the update and useful to hear how it plays out. Thank you.

Cheery!

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

On 5/5/2021 at 10:20 AM, George MC said:

Thank you!

Excellent  When this was being playtested it was fascinating to see the different ways players resolved (or attempted to resolve) these dilemmas. Ways I'd never envisaged! Be interesting to see what your approach is. Awra best!

Annnnnnnd we finally finished our PBEM match, I won with a Soviet Major Victory.

******************************** SPOILERS ********************************

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was a lot of Panthers! Luckily I managed to use the reinforcing company of tanks to counterattack and get behind his forces and cut off any retreat on the right flank and they bagged two Hetzers and a Panther for their efforts. My opponent had pushed 5 of his Panthers and the two Hetzers down that route.

I had positioned SMG platoons in the woods where it narrows near the village and they stopped the infantry he pushed down the centre, the rest of the infantry surrounded the village and closed in with support from the tanks and destroyed the trapped forces and after he ran out of manpower my opponent called for a ceasefire. I know the commissars would have had me shot for not killing every last one of them but I agreed.

I lost 3 T34s, 3 SUs, 2 T-70s, all the BRs (bit too aggressive in my scouting) and one of the halftracks. He lost 5 Panthers, 2 Pz IIs, 16 Hannomags of various types and 2 Hetzers. I'll grab a screenshot when I get a sec later.

I was sending two platoons of T34s round the left flank with a platoon of Tankodesantniki onboard to complete the envelopment (he was defending that flank with one Panther and a Hannomag it turns out) when we ceased fire.

Great scenario and great fun, it was touch and go until my reinforcements arrived but once they did they really tipped the scales. If my opponent had been much more aggressive and just charged "mit karacho" down one of the AoAs there wouldn't have been too much I could have done about it as the tanks started on the other side of the map, luckily he was quite cautious.

[George MC]

6 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

Annnnnnnd we finally finished our PBEM match, I won with a Soviet Major Victory.

 

Good effort. Its defo a scenario that favours the bold! In playtesting bold and aggressive approaches (by either player tends to work well) although not sure how it'll play out if both go for the all out 'balls to the wall' approach. Probably be 'sparky'!

SPOILERS (Highlight to see)

Yeah if the German player moves very aggressively they can bottle up the Soviet player trying to cross the river. This tends not to end well for the Soviet player. The German player does face some dilemmas (to stay out and fight it out; evacuate Stransky; or evacuate Stransky and stay put). though but that's the point of the mission. I'm not sure in H2H the points balance out and it is 'balanced' (If players are looking for balanced there are always QBs) but if it provides an exciting and fun filled mission then success. Hope and trust your oppo enjoyed it? 

I was aiming for desperate and slightly hopeless with the German player doing their best. As i said it can work out for the Germans unless the Soviet player is equally wily.

Look forward to a screenshot as and when you have the time.

Many thanks for the update and AAR - much appreciated and equally pleased to hear you enjoyed it.

Cheery!

[Erwin]

29 minutes ago, George MC said:

Its defo a scenario that favours the bold! In playtesting bold and aggressive approaches (by either player tends to work well)

That seems to be an interesting departure for your designs.  I very much appreciate the 2 to 2.5 hours time limits that your scenarios feature as it gives one time to think and try out different things. 

I spend a lot of that time sending units to skulk around to spot enemy positions (usually ATG's or ATGM's) so they can be neutralized b4 making an assault.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Thanks @George MC, it was guid fun for me and the map is exquisite, my oppo hasn't expressed an opinion but we're about to start another scenario so he can't have been too miffed. I did just go and read the German briefing and it certainly is a tough one for them, lots of decisions to make. I may try it as the Germans one day once the Soviet OOB has faded from memory, although I haven't yet played your von Stroif campaign so I'll maybe wait until I get around to that (it's next on my list after To Berlin).

 

I managed to grab some screenshots. Nothing too spoilery in them but if you really don't want to know anything at all then avert thy eyes.

The aftermath

Escape was impossible

German wrecks

At the jumping off point, waiting for the smokescreen just before the ceasefire

MMM

[Chibot Mk IX]

21 hours ago, George MC said:

I'm not sure in H2H the points balance out and it is 'balanced' (If players are looking for balanced there are always QBs) but if it provides an exciting and fun filled mission then success. Hope and trust your oppo enjoyed it? 

Regarding if this scenario is balanced, I would say if both players play this blind then it is moderate pro-Soviets.  German side has too many things to worry about, too much uncertainty to bear with. But if both sides know the map/setup zone well, then it is a balanced or even slightly pro-axis.

[George MC]

12 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

Thanks @George MC, it was guid fun for me and the map is exquisite, my oppo hasn't expressed an opinion but we're about to start another scenario so he can't have been too miffed. I did just go and read the German briefing and it certainly is a tough one for them, lots of decisions to make. I may try it as the Germans one day once the Soviet OOB has faded from memory, although I haven't yet played your von Stroif campaign so I'll maybe wait until I get around to that (it's next on my list after To Berlin).

 

I managed to grab some screenshots. Nothing too spoilery in them but if you really don't want to know anything at all then avert thy eyes.

 

MMM

Great screens thank you. Yeah Germans have a tough one, but as I said if they play their cards right they can bottle up the Soviets. The poor vis can help with a bold approach.

Different set of challenges playing as the Germans so worth checking out when memory fades (oh there are multiple Soviet AI plans just to keep you on your toes...).

Thanks for posting your feedback and supporting screenshots. useful info thank you.

Good luck with von Schroif when you come to play it.

Cheery!

[George MC]

2 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Regarding if this scenario is balanced, I would say if both players play this blind then it is moderate pro-Soviets.  German side has too many things to worry about, too much uncertainty to bear with. But if both sides know the map/setup zone well, then it is a balanced or even slightly pro-axis.

Useful info thanks - as I said was never playtested H2H and I must admit when designing was not convinced it would play well h2H given nature of the mission and the points scoring - seems I was incorrect in that assumption

[George MC]

23 hours ago, Erwin said:

That seems to be an interesting departure for your designs.  I very much appreciate the 2 to 2.5 hours time limits that your scenarios feature as it gives one time to think and try out different things. 

I spend a lot of that time sending units to skulk around to spot enemy positions (usually ATG's or ATGM's) so they can be neutralized b4 making an assault.

Errrm, not really I think. Just different challenge. Still enough time on the clock to approach this cautiously but in doing so one player or the other will lose the advantage especially if the other plays aggressively (and the AI plans for both sides use this info and the AI does prosecute its attack aggressively). The clue is in the name with this one

[Commanderski]

Just finished Mit Karacho, played as the Germans against the Soviet AI. What a game!!!  Quite exciting at times too. Will definitely play it again.

 

[George MC]

On 11/16/2021 at 1:59 AM, Commanderski said:

Just finished Mit Karacho, played as the Germans against the Soviet AI. What a game!!!  Quite exciting at times too. Will definitely play it again.

 

Ah excellent - good result. Pleased to hear you enjoyed it. Its a tough one to do well in as the Germans.

Cheery!