SPOTTING ISSUES

[akd]

8 hours ago, scrappie said:

Hi Erwin

I tested out the scenario you suggested and can confirm what akd is saying is correct.  Under the scenario conditions the FO & HQ units will never spot the unit that the scout team spotted because they don’t have access to the thermal sights.  If you go into the scenario editor and change the conditions to clear you will find that the HQ (for example) will spot the tank in question fairly quickly (even without C2 sharing).

You can also just set the scenario time forward 30 minutes - 1 hr and the LOS for units without thermals will change.

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

This thread illustrates the reason tankers use thermals instead of the day channel in a lot of situations.

[grungar]

time for a huge patch to the tac ai is in order no? 

[Sulman]

On 8/31/2020 at 2:11 PM, Sgt Joch said:

re: the game. I find the best use of AFV/dismounts is to work as a team, with AFVs close to the infantry, that way AFVs are always just there if the infantry spots an enemy unit. Yes, you run the risk of losing more AFVs that way, but I think the advantages outweigh the risks.

I think you're right, and it's pretty close to Russian doctrine as per this:

The source is in the plate title.

The APC is an integral part of the platoon/squad, and usually is deployed behind, prefererably in cover but it is a significant part of the platoon's combat power.

If you play this way you do risk them, but when it works it works very well.  In a company formation you'd typically have an attached MBT up front leading, but I've not really tried this out in CMBS. That's obviously the ticket post-scouting.

 

[Erwin]

Worth looking at this thread as well:  

 

[Sulman]

24 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Worth looking at this thread as well:  

 

What a great find. Made me think of the Britain of my childhood when we made great documentaries and the threat of a war of annihilation was frightening and real.

[akd]

On 11/3/2020 at 1:55 PM, grungar said:

time for a huge patch to the tac ai is in order no? 

Not sure what you are expecting to get patched here?  I am looking into the equipment of the Fire Support Team to determine if they should have a thermal optic in addition to their laser target designator, but that's not a bug per se.  Everything else seems to be working as expected.

[Erwin]

51 minutes ago, akd said:

I am looking into the equipment of the Fire Support Team to determine if they should have a thermal optic

Ok, that's good.  It seems odd that the scout team with a rifle mounted thermal optic should be almost as good as a Jav launcher and so, so much better than whatever else an FO and others are using.

Perhaps the rifle-mounted thermal device is too good in CMSF?  It's hard to believe it can spot an enemy at almost 3,000 meters (perhaps even longer since that was the max map size) in hazy visual conditions when it may be 110-120+ degrees hot within one and a half minutes.  Perhaps the rifle-mounted thermal optic's effective range should be shorter, or more degraded in hot conditions?

[akd]

Here are the thermal optics discussed:

http://www.nitevis.com/ANPAS-13E.htm

[Sulman]

I've observed something in CM2 that seems difficult to solve (Steel Beasts also suffers) which is what I term a 'spotting notch'; namely in certain situations units that appear to be in plain sight  in the 3d world cannot be seen, with big gameplay implications.

Commonly it is because of some terrain feature partially obscuring the unit (like a shrub or hedge) causing it to  be ignored by the spotting algorithm. Another example from a recent game was a BMP which was 1/3rd obscured by a brick wall  - it was effectively invisible to all units, despite most of it being visible in the 3d world.

Blind RUS/UKR armour is well-known, their spotting really is all over the place.

 

 

[Erwin]

Definitely some LOS issues.  Am playing a mission in El Derjine campaign where my tanks can see infantry on the ground underneath a BMP.  But, they cannot see (or shoot at) the BMP.    

[Erwin]

BTW:  Good sight for rating thermals:  https://www.marineapproved.com/best-thermal-scopes/

One can find tons of info comparing Thermal vs Night Vision and its performance in normal temperatures.  Thermals do seem to be very good even in dust and humid condition/fog.  But, so far can't find any info on whether thermal optics are degraded in very hot weather - like 120 degrees.  

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Erwin

[akd]

The scenario we've been discussing actually starts cool, but thermals are generally less efficient in daytime desert conditions.  That doesn't necessarily mean worse than day optics / NVGs and it depends on multiple factors.

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Definitely some LOS issues.  Am playing a mission in El Derjine campaign where my tanks can see infantry on the ground underneath a BMP.  But, they cannot see (or shoot at) the BMP.    

I'll repeat that individual anecdotes are almost entirely worthless for discussion of spotting in CM.  There are abstractions and spotting cycles for individual units that can lead to oddities like above, but they are unlikely to persist for long or be consistently repeatable.

[Haiduk]

On 11/5/2020 at 5:56 PM, Erwin said:

Ok, that's good.  It seems odd that the scout team with a rifle mounted thermal optic should be almost as good as a Jav launcher and so, so much better than whatever else an FO and others are using.

Perhaps the rifle-mounted thermal device is too good in CMSF?  It's hard to believe it can spot an enemy at almost 3,000 meters (perhaps even longer since that was the max map size) in hazy visual conditions when it may be 110-120+ degrees hot within one and a half minutes.  Perhaps the rifle-mounted thermal optic's effective range should be shorter, or more degraded in hot conditions?

I read Russian forum and some people, former Russian volunteers, who were DNR fighters told their rifle thermal sights were significantly degrading when they tried to spot infantry on the background of summer forest. Detection range was shortening to 150-200 m and thermal image was too hard to recognize. Though they told about civil models of Russian or Belarusian thermal sights, which they could buy.   

Edited November 7, 2020 by Haiduk

[akd]

Quote

Thermal imagers have been established as the primary tool used in military and security activities that involve surveillance, targeting and tracking, and night-time operations. Unlike image intensification (I2) devices, which depend on ambient light levels, thermal imagers exploit the fact that all objects with a temperature above 0 K emit thermal radiation by creating a pseudo-image of the scene based on this thermal emission. The two thermal imaging windows are the mid-wave IR (MidIR), 3–5 μm, and the long-wave IR (LWIR), 8–14 μm, both chosen for the relatively low amounts of absorption from atmospheric species, such as carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O).

Contrast between the objects within a thermal image is determined by their effective temperatures, which are a function of their true temperature and emissivity, a characteristic that describes how efficiently an object radiates absorbed energy as compared to a blackbody. If there is no thermal contrast between a target and its background, it cannot be seen in a thermal image. The diurnal cycles of the thermal properties of both manmade and natural objects tend to bring about periods of low contrast within thermal images, often referred to as thermal crossovers or inversion periods (1). These inversion periods tend to occur during periods of rapidly changing temperatures, such as sunrise and sunset, but may occur at any time throughout the day, depending both on temperature differences between objects and their backgrounds, and on environmental factors, such as solar loading. Thermal polarimetric imaging is a technology that enhances conventional thermal imaging by extending its operational ability into these periods of thermal inversion.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a522286.pdf

I doubt this is modeled in CM given its complexity.  Thermal optics are likely just a flat bonus to vision.

[chuckdyke]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:07 AM, akd said:

None of those other units have thermal weapon sights.  They all have NVGs.

Read my post above again regarding information sharing.

 

It has a thermal weapon sight for the M249.

Yes, it has a much more powerful thermal imager than the weapon sights carried in the rifle squad.

The squad as a whole will be better because it is observing with 3x thermal sights instead of just one.

I think your conceptual problem here is that the thermal weapon sights are tied to the individual weapons and are not shown in the special equipment panel, whereas NVGs (light intensification, not thermal) are shown.  That's why I said the issue was obscure, because it is not readily apparent and takes careful testing to understand.  Possibly we could address this via a mod by denoting the thermal capability on the weapon icon itself?

 

You need to look at the right direction, I find a cover arc useful. Squad A spots a T55 in a static position, the nearby Javelin team as usual doesn't. By giving the Javelin team a cover arc and let him probe in the right direction on the 'Hunt Command' solves usual the problem. Had a sniper spotted a bunker but the air controller team hiding 25 mtrs away doesn't. I fail to understand when 2 experts with state-of-the-art PDA's can't pass on information. Certainly the PDA has a topographic map with the required reference points. 

[akd]

Target arcs only affect spotting in so much as they affect facing.  They are fire control orders.  A face command has the same effect on spotting.

[George MC]

Relevant podcast as two guys (serving Brit Army) discuss challenges of training and fighting at night. Some good insight into limitations of NV kit. 
https://wavellroom.com/podcast/night-fighting-tea-toast-and-tactics-with-ash/

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by George MC