What are these 88 rounds of 40x46mm ammo?

[melm]

It seems it is not for LAV III TUA usage as there's no grenader launcher mounted(Smoke grenade shall be 76mm x8).  And TUA is a TOW platform, not IFV, I don't think these are for INF's extra ammo. Besides, crews don't have grenade launchers for their rifles. I am wondering what they are and what they are for.

Edited January 7, 2019 by melm

[Thomm]

This seems to be spare ammo for under-barrel grenade launchers.

I suspect that soldiers in the vicinity of the vehicle can access this supply even without entering the vehicle.

Best regards,
Thomm

[Howler]

Referencing the USMC manual, the M32 uses a 6 round revolver-type swing out cylinder while the M203 has a single shot feed system.

I'm hoping someone will be able to better explain how the ammo sharing would work with this vehicle. I've not noticed any sharing during play but that's more likely lack of opportunity as I would normally not have ATGM vehicle close to troops needing that ammo...

The supply dump feature works nicely with the M240G and SMAW from the MTVR/AAVC but otherwise it's hazy for me and I send a team to acquire the small arms/LAW as needed.

[Ch53dVet]

In SF1 and SF2 the NATO Module Pdf files lists the LAV III as such:

"The LAV III is the latest version in the LAV vehicle series and forms the transport basis

of Canadian Mech Infantry units. Developed in Canada, its main armament is a M242

25mm chain gun with TIS. The secondary armament is a C6 7.62mm machine gun.

The LAV III carries a dedicated crew of 2 and up to 8 dismounts.

Also included in the module is the LAV III TUA (Tow-Under-Armor) with turret-mounted

TOW missile launchers for anti-tank purposes."

(It doesn't specify any changes to crew and/or whether the SF1 version of the TUA carries troops. I'll try to check back later after I fire up my older version of SF1 and take a look at sandbox models of the LAV family)

However, in the SF1 manual there isn't a picture and specifications screen of a LAV III TUA, as there is in the SF2 manual. I wonder, if they just lumped it in with the LAV III specification screen which carries troops and extra ammo. I'll bet when they introduced the TUA model in the game they edited in the new weapon system and it's specific ammo, taking out the original main gun and ammo, leaving in, by design, or, forgetting to remove, the original ammo supply from the troop carrying variant, unless, troops in proximity to the vehicle can replenish their ammo like they can when next to supply vehicles or buddies that are carrying but can't use the special ammo.

[MikeyD]

As to ammo sharing, I recall in one of the WWII titles I had run my bazooka man out of ammo but was surprised when he kept firing. It turned out he was 'borrowing' from someone the next action square over.

LAV TUA is in the NATO manual, page 19.

[Ch53dVet]

I went in to the sandbox and set up a small test with the LAV III troop transport & the LAV III TUA anti-tank platform in both Sf1 and SF2, RE: ammo sharing with ground troops next to non-troop carrying vehicles that contain surplus ammo in its inventory that it doesn't have a need for like the LAV III TUA.

1) The LAV III & LAV III TUA is the same vehicle model in both SF1 & SF2 the TUA is a non-troop carrying variant of the LAV III, the only difference between the two models is the TUA's upper roof and gun platform is welded on top of a LAV III troop carrying chassis, the interior shows a rear area with seats for carrying troops and their surplus ammo.

2) In SF1 exterior troops next to the TUA can't utilize the surplus ammo, when they're out of ammo that's it, they're out. The surplus ammo is, totally, un-obtainable and useless to any, exterior, adjacent, troops, even, the crewmen can't load up with the ammo should they wish to load up and bail out of the vehicle and try to buddy share it with the ground troops.

3) In SF2 exterior troops next to the TUA can in fact replenish their ammo from it. However..., they won't resupply themselves unless the following requirements are met

         (1) they must be in a hex, next to, or, adjacent to, the vehicle.

         (2) They must be in an active fire-fight.

         (3) They must use up, "ALMOST", all the ammo they have on them, 40mm grenades 0, Rifle ammo must be down to 199 rounds

4) When all the requirements are met the troops will resupply themselves with 200 rifle rounds and 2 40mm grenades when they use that up they grab another 200 rds. & 2 grenades

5) When the fire-fight is over they will no longer resupply themselves with ammo and are stuck with what little ammo they have left.

It would be great if we could use the "Acquire Ammo" button when outside of non-accessible vehicles containing surplus ammo.

[Howler]

4 hours ago, Ch53dVet said:

3) In SF2 exterior troops next to the TUA can in fact replenish their ammo from it. However..., they won't resupply themselves unless the following requirements are met

         (1) they must be in a hex, next to, or, adjacent to, the vehicle.

         (2) They must be in an active fire-fight.

         (3) They must use up, "ALMOST", all the ammo they have on them, 40mm grenades 0, Rifle ammo must be down to 199 rounds 

Good job! Would it work like this for any vehicle carrying extra ammo? If so, we may now have specifics triggers for the ammo sharing section of the 4.00 manual...

[A Canadian Cat]

19 hours ago, Ch53dVet said:

3) In SF2 exterior troops next to the TUA can in fact replenish their ammo from it. However..., they won't resupply themselves unless the following requirements are met

What was your organization like for this test? Was the LAV III TUA part of the platoon you were using to acquire ammo? My understanding was that ammo sharing happens automatically with in a platoon. I know that is the case for infantry the question is are vehicles part of this restriction too or not.

 

15 hours ago, Howler said:

Would it work like this for any vehicle carrying extra ammo?

Yes, good question.

One additional thing that might be fun to try - dismount the crew and have a small team enter the vehicle. It might be possible. If it is can they acquire ammo that way?

 

19 hours ago, Ch53dVet said:

It would be great if we could use the "Acquire Ammo" button when outside of non-accessible vehicles containing surplus ammo.

Yes, it would be. I doubt that this is something that will happen on its own. Acquiring ammo is way faster than it should be even with the move, mount, acquire shenanigans we currently have to do. If a larger reworking of acquiring ammo were under taken being able to do so from hear the vehicle would be a good addition.

[Erwin]

If the ammo is green color like the ammo reserved for the vehicle one can never acquire that.  IIRC some vehicles allow an inf unit to embark instead of the crew and acquire "white" ammo.  But, other vehicles do not.  So no consistency.

[Ch53dVet]

19 hours ago, Howler said:

Good job! Would it work like this for any vehicle carrying extra ammo? If so, we may now have specifics triggers for the ammo sharing section of the 4.00 manual...

I went back and loaded in some vehicles from all the NATO forces, then using a single Canadian Infantry squad, with all their ammo expended, I placed them next to the vehicles and issued them a target area command and they took ammo from every Nation's vehicle's w/o a hiccup, also, I was wrong, earlier, when I wrote troops w/o ammo will only take it from a vehicle when actively engaging the enemy, when next to an ammo source they will, eventually, take the minimum amount of ammo they are programmed to take, approx. 40 rounds (5.56mm) per man in squad and 1 40 mm grenade per grenade launcher in the squad.

Next, I went one step further and setup a sandbox environment with 1 rifle squad from every NATO country the game uses.

I was shocked to find out that rifle squads of a different country will not share ammo with each other. Now, here's a real kick in the buttocks, The U.S. Marines will not share ammo with the U.S. Army, and, the U.S. Army will not share ammo with the U.S. Marines, you'd think that two fighting forces of the same country would share ammo in a fire-fight. If we can re-supply ammo from other NATO vehicles then we should be able to share it with our NATO buddies and, vise a versa. I'm hoping this will be changed in the future.

[Ch53dVet]

6 hours ago, IanL said:

What was your organization like for this test? Was the LAV III TUA part of the platoon you were using to acquire ammo? My understanding was that ammo sharing happens automatically with in a platoon. I know that is the case for infantry the question is are vehicles part of this restriction too or not.

I used 1 rifle squad per nation and purchased a single LAV III TUA, I placed each squad along side of it and when they ran out of ammo they all used the surplus ammo stored inside the TUA, the crews ammo wasn't touched 5.56mm or 9.mm, also the surplus ammo in the TUA could not be used by the TUA as it's not equipped with 5.56mm machineguns or has 40mm grenade launchers.

The only problems with exiting the crew to see if you can place your troops inside and grab the ammo is:

1) certain vehicles with a crew only capacity, like the TUA, don't offer the crew the "Acquire" button before they bail out.

2) you'd need a team to be 4 or less to enter the crew compartment, the TUA has a crew of 4 which is good because the minimum split for a normal squad is 4, less than 4 if you have an odd numbered squad, but, then again, the TUA crew can't use the Acquire button so I'd doubt if your team could Acquire the ammo if they could access the crew compartment.

The funny thing I learned while doing these test's was that allied troops of a different nation, laying, side by side, each other, will not share ammo with them, especially, the U.S. Marines and the U.S. Army. How ridiculous is that?

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, Ch53dVet said:

I was shocked to find out that rifle squads of a different country will not share ammo with each other. Now, here's a real kick in the buttocks, The U.S. Marines will not share ammo with the U.S. Army, and, the U.S. Army will not share ammo with the U.S. Marines, you'd think that two fighting forces of the same country would share ammo in a fire-fight. 

That's service rivalry for you - seems pretty realistic to me 

[Ch53dVet]

20 hours ago, Combatintman said:

That's service rivalry for you - seems pretty realistic to me 

Yeah, but, rivalry's between the armed forces, usually, entail competition, chest thumping, mascot stealing, mischievous pranks and the, occasional, pugilistic, bar-room, clashes that, mostly, occur during peacetime or in places far away from any conflict area.

In a fire-fight, atheist's and rivalries in foxholes, don't exist.   

[Erwin]

Apparently there are atheists in foxholes, so maybe...

https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/stop-saying-no-atheists-foxholes

"Currently, over seven percent of U.S. military personnel in combat zones are officially listed as Atheists. Several armed services have stopped requiring incoming soldiers to pledge to God in their allegiance speech. Even the army doesn’t truly believe there are no Atheists in foxholes."

Read more at World Religion News: "We Should Stop Saying There Are No Atheists In Foxholes" https://www.worldreligionnews.com/?p=50207

[MikeyD]

Acquireable in LAV III TUA is obviously a (small) goof but I'm glad to read that it still has some utility. In the other titles during Beta stage we had to hunt down and strip 'acquireables' out of gun platforms that were based on infantry carriers. No, you can't load infantry into Stummel or M16 or M3 GMC to grab acquireables. So out the acquireables go.

Quote

I was shocked to find out that rifle squads of a different country will not share ammo with each other.

I once read a story about a US 57mm AT gun crew in France who traded their AP rounds for 6 pounder HE with a passing British AT unit. The Brits were low on AP and the Americans fielded no HE at all. Soon after the unit was called on to take out a sniper in a church bell tower. A single HE round into the tower collapsed it completely, much to the horror of the gun crew. Trading warfighting ammo with foreign forces is a *treasonable* offense and they would have been in BIG trouble if higher-ups started asking where they got HE ammo for their gun from.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Apparently there are atheists in foxholes, so maybe...

https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/stop-saying-no-atheists-foxholes

"Currently, over seven percent of U.S. military personnel in combat zones are officially listed as Atheists. Several armed services have stopped requiring incoming soldiers to pledge to God in their allegiance speech. Even the army doesn’t truly believe there are no Atheists in foxholes."

Read more at World Religion News: "We Should Stop Saying There Are No Atheists In Foxholes" https://www.worldreligionnews.com/?p=50207

Dude, stay on topic, for goodness sakes.

[Vet 0369]

8 hours ago, Ch53dVet said:

Yeah, but, rivalry's between the armed forces, usually, entail competition, chest thumping, mascot stealing, mischievous pranks and the, occasional, pugilistic, bar-room, clashes that, mostly, occur during peacetime or in places far away from any conflict area.

In a fire-fight, atheist's and rivalries in foxholes, don't exist.   

Aw, come on, the Army has always shared their equipment with the Marines. On Guadalcanal, the Marines landed with M1903 bolt action rifles. Shortly after the Army landed with the M1 semiautomatic rifles, most of the Marines had M1 semiautomic rifles. When the Marines withdrew from the Chosin Reservoir, they had Army vehicles and Artillery. Now granted, for the most part, the Army didn't know they had shared their weapons and vehicles with the Marines, but we found them to be very generous.

[Vet 0369]

8 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Acquireable in LAV III TUA is obviously a (small) goof but I'm glad to read that it still has some utility. In the other titles during Beta stage we had to hunt down and strip 'acquireables' out of gun platforms that were based on infantry carriers. No, you can't load infantry into Stummel or M16 or M3 GMC to grab acquireables. So out the acquireables go.

I once read a story about a US 57mm AT gun crew in France who traded their AP rounds for 6 pounder HE with a passing British AT unit. The Brits were low on AP and the Americans fielded no HE at all. Soon after the unit was called on to take out a sniper in a church bell tower. A single HE round into the tower collapsed it completely, much to the horror of the gun crew. Trading warfighting ammo with foreign forces is a *treasonable* offense and they would have been in BIG trouble if higher-ups started asking where they got HE ammo for their gun from.

I for one have never heard of that. I don't remember it being part of the U.S. Uniform Code of Justice (UCMJ) and since a "treasonable" offense, it would be a capital crime, so it would have to be in the UCMJ. If could have been the "Rocky Road" which was the Rmy Handbook that preceded the UCMJ though. I can honestly say that if I was in a mixed unit of soldiers or Marines of different nationalities, I would be sharing ammo or weapons with them.

[Erwin]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Dude, stay on topic, for goodness sakes.

When folks say things that are off topic and one responds maybe you should address your concerns to the first poster:  "In a fire-fight, atheist's and rivalries in foxholes, don't exist."

If you want to be a good and respected hall monitor maybe address the hundreds of posts that seem to be off-topic made all over these forums.  

[Ch53dVet]

12 hours ago, Erwin said:

When folks say things that are off topic and one responds maybe you should address your concerns to the first poster:  "In a fire-fight, atheist's and rivalries in foxholes, don't exist."

First off:

I was responding, in kind, to a "rib tickle" reply from "Combatintman" regarding the end results of a sandbox test, I had posted earlier. I was startled to find that all troops of various nations can pilfer ammo (by osmosis when they are low on ammo) when next to any nations vehicles, outside of their own nationality, as long as that vehicle contains a surplus ammo supply that is not used by that vehicles weapon system, regardless, of vehicle type. However, when placing troops of a different (allied) nation next to one another they didn't share 1 round when the adjacent squad ran out, especially, when the two squad's were from the same country yet in different Armed Forces.

My last sentence to "Combatintman" was a comedic attempt at signing off by modifying a WWII phrases subject matter of atheists and foxholes by adding "rivalry's" into a paraphrase.

It's rather disingenuous when you try to make my last sentence, a humorous attempt at signing off, as a bigoted form of religious contention and therefor the primary subject matter of all my posts here.

In after thought, I should have written;

" I've often heard the WWII phrase about sharing a foxhole with an atheist in the midst of a raging a battle, if that be the truth, or not, then, either way,  I'm sure you could safely add service rivalry's into the mix."

Edited January 12, 2019 by Ch53dVet

[Combatintman]

Agreed, it was my joke that sent this thread off track. Apologies to all concerned.