fdevassy Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I remember some PCgamer "grognards" complaining CM is just eye candy. I wanted to know what your take on this comment is? From reading many of the posts hear im of the impression that this is in fact a very good wargame experience and that the 3d element helps to add another dimension to it. Anyway i wantd to know if the rest of the wargaming community holds a grudge against CM because supposedly better graphics = "selling out" or less of a good wargame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I think you would find 90% of wargamers appreciate CMs accuracy over candy factor. Think of a name in wargaming and I bet they like CM. eg. Wild Bill Wilder.. and so on. This is a great game. If you like wargames, you'll love this, 100% guaranteed. And PC Gamer Groganards? Hehe, you're kidding right? PeterNZ [This message has been edited by PeterNZer (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailz Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fdevassy: I remember some PCgamer "grognards" complaining CM is just eye candy. I wanted to know what your take on this comment is? From reading many of the posts hear im of the impression that this is in fact a very good wargame experience and that the 3d element helps to add another dimension to it. Anyway i wantd to know if the rest of the wargaming community holds a grudge against CM because supposedly better graphics = "selling out" or less of a good wargame. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not to be offensive, but could you please have some better references than "I remember some PCgamer..." My take on the comment would be your looking to start some sort of flamefest based on hearsay. Who complained about the eye candy? Certainly if you're looking for someone to support the 'grudge' theory, you're in the wrong forum. What parts of the 'community' are accusing CM of being a sellout? Doesn't make a lot of sense given the popular reviews on Usenet and in the paper-rags. Keep your powder dry... Tailz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I've found critics, fdevassey, especially amateur ones, to not always be as accurate as they should be on reports. Anyone who tells you this game is just "eye candy," has really not taken the time to play it. No wargame has a 100% following. Different strokes as they say. I will say this. If you like small unit, tactical combat, with great sound, spectacular 3D graphics (I like "eye candy") and an AI that will challenge you, plus a wide selection of well over 100 scenarios and operations, you can't do better than Combat Mission. There are dozens of wargames on which I have wasted hard-earned money. CM does not fit into that category. It is a good investment. The game is different, very different. The system of play is different from what you have seen before. It takes some practice and experience to get acquainted with the nuances of the game. It is worth it, believe me. Big Time Software has sold their stock out completely twice. That should say something in itself. And thanks, Kiwi ! I'll have my wife read your post. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 um... This is just crazy I think I'm a pretty good judge of Eye Candy and CMBO v1.o as it was released did not have any great grapahics or and earth shattering Eye Candy So what the hell are they talking about. Its a GREAT game, most people complained that it did not look so hot, NOW we hear someone suggest its not a good game because it has too mauch Eye Candy? Who are "they" where is this published? The game has some little tiny nit picking things we debate and disagree about here, but it is the VERY BEST small unit WWII combat tactics video game every to hit the market, and now we hear, "Oh we can dismiss CM because it looks too Good and has too much eye candy" What utter nonsese! Have you played the game? What? are all the cool NEW mods making some think this game is JUST (?) eye candy and no substance? There is historical and accuracy and detail right down to the mm of armour in the specific location it was found on all the AFV's modeled. I just don't understand this complaint? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: um... This is just crazy I think I'm a pretty good judge of Eye Candy and CMBO v1.o as it was released did not have any great grapahics or and earth shattering Eye Candy So what the hell are they talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For a wargame its graphichs are shattering, compared to NATO symbols we used to be stuck with my FPS friends who have seen CM at my home arn't impressed one constanly say's ' aww look at the cardboard tanks & stickmen' . I try to explain to him, how much of a step forward CM is, but as he has had no intrest in wargames since his first encounter with NATO symbols years ago it's pointless. I can still remeber trying to get someone to listen to me to make a game with SP's graphichs & HPS realism many moons ago, and being blown off by producers that 'flash' wasn't important to wargamers & haveing designers like the idea but couldn't do it etc because of the above. So when CM came out I finaly got my wish . Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Folks, calm down. I don't think the original post was meant to start a flamewar, nor should people be forbidden to have their own opinions. If someone doesn't like CM, for whatever reason, that's completely within their rights. They don't know what they're missing, but hey, different strokes. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmorse Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 fdevassy: Welcome to about the coolest place on earth. Unsure what experience you have with the game. if you are wondering about whether CM is fluff or steel go to http://www.battlefront.com/products/worldwar/cm/cm_rev.html and read the reviews of MAJOR reviewers. If you haven't got the demo go to http://www.battlefront.com/cmdemo.html right now and play it. See for yourself. Also read the Manifesto and about BTS at http://www.battlefront.com/about/index.html to learn where this game is coming from and why it is as it is. Based on my experience with "grognard" types is once they delve into CM they are hooked. We are talking serious reality modelling here. Actually, the graphics have been criticized as not enough eye candy. As noted above, with the plethora of mods out there (see CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net/ . If that doesn't convince you , hang around this forum. You will find sinners and saints, personality disordered and obssevive. You want grognard, see the Long 88 thread. You want insanity, go to the Peng challange thread....it's all here, and a great bunch of people as well. Finally, BTS, Steve, Charles and now our resident Mad one, Madmatt CARE what we think. and the CARE about getting it right. Overthe last 9 months I've been around I have seen them incorporate suggestions, make modifications etc that came out of people voicing their thoughts, research and feelings. NO OTHER company that I have seen does that, both in development AND after the game is done. So dive in, have fun, it is a game ya know, but as has been said in other places, kiss your spouse/significant other good bye, make sure the dog has lots of food, prepay the mortgage and utilities and load up on chips,pretzels and drink of choice, because it WILL take you over, as will the CM borg. Cheers JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Didn't PCGamer give CM a high rating in it's review? ------------------ Webmaster http://www.trailblazersww2.org http://www.vmfa251.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frenchy: Didn't PCGamer give CM a high rating in it's review? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it got an EC award, the highest a game can get. But later they wrote something like an CM killed wargameing aricle IIRC, that has set a few ppl off . Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Well, if you pop back over here, fdevassy, I would appreciate if you could reference a bit better where this "CM=fluff" discussion is going on. Is it in a magazine? On a web or usenet forum? Can you provide a link? OK, so I'm morbidly curious here...... PS: My own perception of the "computer historical wargamer" community, over the months, is that the majority of it supports CM, grognards or otherwise. And CM didn't "kill" wargaming or the "NATO-icon" games, it just took tactical wargaming to a higher level. Funny thing is that Steel Beasts has also sold out recently, and there's a sim/wargame that still uses the NATO icons in map-mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossdaddy Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I bought CM because of an excellent review I read in PCGamer months ago. They were falling all over themselves about how great it is. (And I think it is, too.) ------------------ When angry, count four; when very angry, swear. --Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 The aforementioned article by Bruce Geryk, who praised CM to the skies in his GameSpot (iirc) and Computer Gaming World magazine reviews, is called "Combat Mission Kills Wargaming." It appears in the December issue of Computer Gaming World, pp. 174-5, not in PC Gamer. It doesn't trash CM at all. Read it, and you'll see why. ------------------ Hope you got your things together, Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR [This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 We all know why! You have to have some intelligence to appreciate and enjoy the brilliance that is CMBO. I'm surprised that some of the frequent "grognard" writers to PCGAMER have the nonce to put a sentence together! Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 As of The November issues of both PCGamer and CGW go, I have not seen one tiny complaint about Combat Mission in the reviews or letters sections. I Have all the issues for the last two years or so laying around so I know this for a fact. If anything at all was said that was derogatory towards CM it has to be in the December issues of each. Everything on CM in these mags has been very positive to date. Mord [This message has been edited by Mord (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Samhain: The aforementioned article by Bruce Geryk, who praised CM to the skies in his GameSpot (iirc) and Computer Gaming World magazine reviews, is called "Combat Mission Kills Wargaming." It appears in the December issue of Computer Gaming World, pp. 174-5, not in PC Gamer. It doesn't trash CM at all. Read it, and you'll see why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> AHA thats the one . Who said the article trashed CM? the Bru - Ha that followed the article concerned the praise CM got & wargamers who didn't agree, with the praise etc, it's still going on the userenet Nwsgrps last time I looked. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmac@work Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 fdevassy, you're kidding... right? What "grognards", exactly, are you referring to? You mentioned PCgamer, and folks, please don't bash the mag because of fdevassy's mis-post. "The General" is indeed, a first class grognard... Are you referring to the same magazine that you referenced in your first post about giving CM a glowing review, that you also said influenced your choice in trying CM? So which is it? Did they influence you to buy it, or that it sucks? Funny, I subscribe to PCGamer, CGW, and PCGames and ALL of those mags pissed all over themselves in excitement about how great this game is. Check the homepage of this forum for rewiew rewards if you have any doubts... I bought this game based on those reviews. I don't buy any game without a review from these magazines, because there is SO MUCH digital trash out there. This, my much maligned friend, is NOT one of those games. You have it, play it, form YOUR OWN opinion. If you don't like it, I'm sure someone out there will buy it from you. Different strokes for different folks, but please don't introduce any personal observations and represent them as from a national magazine. I believe you'll find a much savvier base of forum poster here.... Good luck! --Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 I don't normally turn to PC Gamer for reviews of more serious games, but Mr. Trotter's review was among the first I read and helped turn me onto CM, for which I'm exceedingly grateful I've been playing computer games for twenty years, and this is certainly one of the best I've ever experienced. (John, my comment about the article not trashing CM was in response to an eariler post in this thread.) ------------------ Hope you got your things together, Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR [This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfamily33 Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 quote: "I remember some PCgamer "grognards" complaining CM is just eye candy. I wanted to know what your take on this comment is?" "NUTS"! - General McAuliffe, 1944 Bastogne,Ardennes region in Belgium. ------------------ Ohhh mann, I only ride 'em don't know what makes them work. Woof, Woof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadget Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 Trotter's review in PCLamer (June?) also convinced me to d/l the CM demo, and I ordered it the next day. Also, in the Nov issue, reviewing a Medieval wargame (appropriately titled "Medieval") he quotes the developer as saying "Games like Combat Mission are the tip of the iceberg for the future of wargaming ..." Why are some idjits knockin' CM? Got me! They should go back to cardboard counters and dice (maybe I could sell my old AH and SSI games to 'em!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdevassy Posted November 8, 2000 Author Share Posted November 8, 2000 Sorry guys didn't want to start a flame fest here. I am a newbie and wanted just to see your take. For those of you who are accusing me of trying to start a flame fest that was not my intention. I misquoted here. They were talking about click fest and so forth like Close combat(PCGAMER August 2000 page 135.) which I mistook for Combat Mission sorry. But i know that people were complaining about the graphics in PC Gamer which issue i do not recall but in 2000 i know it is. Anyway he was complaining that TOAW was eye candy. and CM has defintely better graphics so that's what i meant. Anyway then again trotter beat that guys argument down explaining that TOAW does not have something that people would characterize as eye candy Whatever i just wanted to ask what you thought. And certainly this kind of angry responses that im trying to cause a flame fest is bad so i'm sorry i won't do it again. That was certainly not my goal you may choose not to believe me. [This message has been edited by fdevassy (edited 11-08-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdevassy Posted November 8, 2000 Author Share Posted November 8, 2000 Hey Frenchy youre right PC GAMER magazine said this is an awesome game. I said some people writing in were critizing it. I personally like the graphics cause to me it brings much more depth i can see things from so many angles and it feels more real to me. Once again please everyone calm down this was not meant to cause a flamefest. In fact go ahead and remove this message if you feel its that offensive. God i didn't think people would think i was trying to start a fight. I like the CM "commnity" cause i found people here so helpful and respectful. And i have said that other "communities" could take a lesson from you guys. So don't think i want to start fights i like things peaceful just like it is althought i still like to play wargames even though war is not peaceful(obviously). So please those i offended im sorry and please calm down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGSF Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fdevassy: So please those i offended im sorry and please calm down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wouldn't sweat it fdevassy. Folks get a little passionate about CM, for obvious reasons. I don't think any offence was taken from what I read above. :^) OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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