Tanks and guns accuracy

[Sven]

I recently started playing Combat Mission again after not having played the game since old CM and several years ago.

I enjoy the game, but it seems to me that guns and tanks are extremely accurate when they shoot. They rarely miss their first shot. Is that really realistic?

[womble]

Depends on you combat ranges, which guns you've seen in action and the soft factors of the crews. Common engagement ranges in Normandy are at point-blank for many tank guns, so you'd expect a good proportion of first round hits.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I enjoy the game, but it seems to me that guns and tanks are extremely accurate when they shoot. They rarely miss their first shot. Is that really realistic?

As noted, this is situation dependent. Against a hull down or even partially hull down target at 1000 meters any gun or tank in the game will miss the first shot more often than not. But a fully exposed motionless tank at 500 meters will indeed be hit on the first shot most of the time and yes, that is realistic. Cannon accuracy in the older CMx1 games was too low by far and was the subject of significant forum controversy back in the day. Actually, even the new improved CMx2 accuracy is on the conservative side of reality with the exception of vehicle firing while moving (a deliberate fudge, and a small one at that).

[JoMac]

I also played CMx1 and then started playing CMx2, and it's Night & Day as far as Gun Accuracy is concerned...In CMx2 I generally play on Small-Med Maps, and find that I can hit Targets 9 out of 10 times.

Altho, the CMx2 Gun Accuracy may be more realistic then CMx1 I still think it's alittle to much, and often wonder if BF has directly modeled the CMSF Gun Accuracy for WWII (Modern Optics, Laser, etc ).  

Joe

Edited October 21, 2015 by JoMc67

[Vanir Ausf B]

directly modeled the CMSF Gun Accuracy for WWII.

I never played CMSF but I have played a lot of Black Sea and the differences are massive at longer ranges and when firing on the move. But for stationary units under 1 km there isn't as much difference. I'd have to look up the numbers to be sure, but I recall Rexford giving a Sherman tank about an 80% first shot hit rate at 500 meters. That's combat accuracy not firing range. So yes, if you are playing on smallish maps first shot hits will be the norm unless one or both tanks are moving or the target is hull down.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Bulletpoint]

A bit silly though that AP rounds seem to get stuck in bocage.

[c3k]

A bit silly though that AP rounds seem to get stuck in bocage.

Nah. They hit a rock and deflect downwards. Look under the map next time.

(I get what you mean. Some bocage can be over 6' thick. That's rock, roots, and packed dirt. I'd have to do a bit of looking to see what kind of kinetic energy would be left over after hitting something like that with a 3" diameter projectile.)

[RockinHarry]

A bit silly though that AP rounds seem to get stuck in bocage.

Is it the foliage where you see the rounds getting stuck, or the berm beneath it? The ground terrain mesh, of which the berm underneath bocage is part of, is always impenetrable. Anything else, should rather deflect a shot and not stop, particularly AP rounds, if they´re of the "solid" type (no HE component/fuzes).

[womble]

It certainly seems odd, and a persistent weakness of the engine, that light obstructions like foliage have any effect whatsoever on AP rounds, even APHE ones. The solid shot just wouldn't notice the leaves and twigs, even substantial branches, and the bursting charge fuse has to undergo a serious deceleration to fire, which leaves and twigs won't supply. If the bocage foliage is thin enough for a target tank to be seen through, it doesn't seem like it should have any chance whatever of stopping an AP round.

HEAT, of course, is a different matter entirely.

[Bulletpoint]

Nah. They hit a rock and deflect downwards. Look under the map next time.

(I get what you mean. Some bocage can be over 6' thick. That's rock, roots, and packed dirt. I'd have to do a bit of looking to see what kind of kinetic energy would be left over after hitting something like that with a 3" diameter projectile.)

Not talking about the rocks and dirt, I'm talking about the planty stuff above it. I know branches can be thick, but we're dealing with ammunition that goes through thick plates of hardened steel here..

[MikeyD]

I suspect crew experience/suppression etc. has more of an influence on gun accuracy than we may expect.  When the first round lands short of goes over the top that's usually because somebody had mis-estimated the range. An elite tank commander with + command abilities might be less prone to make that mistake. A green/fatigued/rattled tank commander might be more prone. Posters here have often commented how they always select veteran-or-above units to play with. That means you're self-selecting for accurate tank gunnery.

[Sven]

Well, I'm still playing scenarios and I find them all extremely accurate.

[JoMac]

I always use 'Green' Troops and find they almost always hit...I do, however, come across the Tree/Hedge Foliage Invisible Force Field against rounds that everyone talks about. . 

[Sven]

You mean that rounds hit trees and such instead?

[RockinHarry]

With regard to invisible hedge/bocage force fields, I recommend to closely watch and test if the tank in question really fires off AP rounds (and not HE or HEAT) and a tanks particular ammo data, which can be researched from the net. I think that BFC realistically modelled each individual guns AP ammo type, which at times is solid projectiles (AP, APC APCBC, Tungsten), of which some also have some HE component. Maybe it then can be narrowed down, if the force field problem just applies to a particular gun and its ammo, or all guns in the game.

Tank gun accuracy. I also muttered about this in the past, figuring that not just initial accuracy appears to be somewhat off, but also reaction times. A tank spots an enemy, rotates turret and fires of the shot, all in incredible speed. Yet it largely depends all on engagement ranges, with ranges below, say ...500m, tank combat is deadly among all opponents, more or less. Regular and veteran+ crews contribute to performance, as is good leaders (+1, + 2), beside general attributes of a tank and its gun. All the high performance guns and optical systems of the 1944 era tanks, were at that time layed out to engage and hit at ranges of 1000m and beyond and here differences between tanks/guns become much more noticable.

I also noticed that among other units in the game, tank engagement actions and their related animations are oftenly not quite in sync. Sometimes a tank gun fires off a shot, while it looks that the turret is still turning. Or the tank just stops from movement, with the hull whipping, yet the gun decoupled from the tanks whipping animation sequence, fires off an accurate shot. I mean to say, that while it sometimes looks odd with regard to some animations, the game still handles the internal calculations accurately. It could also be if there´s heavy action taking place in short time frame, that the game starts to lag and some animations are simply skipped.

[Paulus]

Re bocage forcefield, I can remember on more than 1 occasion AP going through bocage and hedges. 

Isn't it possible for an AP round to start wobling after hitting a tree or branch or something?

[JoMac]

I don't disagree with that assesement in regards to Gun Accuracy up to 1000 meters, etc. However, I'm just wondering if BF calculates Snap-Shots in game, which would give that 50/50 chance of hit even at short ranges...Ofcourse, then what would constitute a Snap-Shot versus a Timed Accurate Shot.

It just seems that a Gun will almost hit with 100% accuracy (unless the Force-Field effect is between shooter and target ), or it will not fire at all (target in sight for 10 secs and disappears).

Edited October 23, 2015 by JoMc67

[Bulletpoint]

Re bocage forcefield, I can remember on more than 1 occasion AP going through bocage and hedges. 

They definitely often go straight through, but far from always. Maybe around 50/50 in my experience.

[eniced73]

Been discussed since 2011.  Even bushes stop AP rounds every so often.  Area fire a building though and watch what happens when you run out of HE. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by eniced73

[Paulus]

  Area fire a building though and watch what happens when you run out of HE. 

Yeah interesting, a 75mm Pak 40 can easily punch through a 2-story house ánd the front of a M4 Sherman at 200 meters.

Also found out; a deployed AT Gun can move while being deployed.

[MikeyD]

If your strategy involves the enemy missing you when he fires that's a rather weak strategy to pursue.