General Topics Related To CMBS

[Sgt Joch]

 

See above.  I brought up the GRU example because it was 100% relevant to the discussion.  More relevant than any other example given in this thread so far.  I do not think that because a couple of people reading this Forum are in denial that we should avoid making direct comparisons between CMBS and what is going on in Ukraine when appropriate.  Or do you think we should dumb down the discussion because a couple of people can't handle the truth?

Steve

Actually Steve, I was responding to IanL.

Arguments about who is right and who is wrong, who is telling the truth and who is lying were interesting the first few times, but at this point have become mind numbingly repetitive. This dirty little undeclared war will keep going until it has run its course and I personally have zero interest in discussing it here.

But its your forum and you can set whatever rules you please.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Sgt Joch

[Kinophile]

Steve, I didn't argue with you just because you kept providing sources from Ukraine, Or 5th columnist news to me, Or even US and British. You sound really convinced, So I won't argue with you on things like that just because it is not pleasant for me, And it will make no difference arguing. I won't argue on this one either, Call it what you want, But I am simply filled up, Same stories, Same propaganda, Same lies. It isn't healthy for me being a Russian citizen who has relatives who are directly effected by the war, Who have people in Crimea, Yet you as the American citizen you are certainly know about what went on in Crimea. Also I haven't provided any links solely because I know no one will change their minds. That is why I think we should keep the topic on track, Instead of fueling me by bringing up incidents in Ukraine. This is a good game, And fun topics to talk about, Why always fuel it into hate? 

Sshh,  Adults talking. 

The game is set in the Ukraine,  there will always be references to events there. 

Edited September 17, 2015 by kinophile

[A Canadian Cat]

Actually Steve, I was responding to IanL.

Arguments about who is right and who is wrong, who is telling the truth and who is lying were interesting the first few times, but at this point have become mind numbingly repetitive.

And you are not wrong.  I will try to do better at ignoring stuff like that.  I find it hard...

[Sgt Joch]

And you are not wrong.  I will try to do better at ignoring stuff like that.  I find it hard...

and I will try not to post off the cuff response. A bad habit of mine.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Sgt Joch

[Sublime]

a bad habit i share

[Battlefront.com]

Actually Steve, I was responding to IanL.

Sorry, not easy to tell since you didn't quote anybody.

Arguments about who is right and who is wrong, who is telling the truth and who is lying were interesting the first few times, but at this point have become mind numbingly repetitive. This dirty little undeclared war will keep going until it has run its course and I personally have zero interest in discussing it here.

But its your forum and you can set whatever rules you please.

I agree that it is repetitive.  I agree it is annoying.  But it is society's job to challenge things which are harmful.  Disinformation and ignorance are very harmful, do you not agree?   So it is our collective job to not let such things take root and have equal standing with reality.

A long standing example of this is Steiner14, a neo-Nazi who doesn't believe in the Holocaust (by contrast he believes the Allies deliberately starved millions of Germans to death post war), that Germany lost the war because it was defeated militarily, that his username was taken from a mediocre general that was hated by his men, etc. etc. etc.  When he didn't try pushing his alternate universe nonsense there was no need to dig into them.  We were all happier when that was the case.  But when he did, it was the duty of the Forum to challenge them or my duty to ban him.  I err on the side of inclusion than exclusion.  Eventually I had to ban him.  Then ban him again, and again, and about a dozen more times.

The alternative is for me to unilaterally decide what thoughts/facts/beliefs are appropriate for this Forum and ban anybody who strays over the line AND anybody that tries to defend them or criticize me for making that decision.  In other words, I would be both the Thought Police.  That doesn't sound like a Forum I'd like to participate in, does it sound like one you would?

Steve

Edited September 17, 2015 by Battlefront.com

[VladimirTarasov]

Sshh,  Adults talking. 

What is that suppose to mean, I am an adult, And I earned my adulthood in the army.

 

Steve,

Please without escalating matters more, I'm just going to talk about why I think that my soldiers keep being a sissy we army boys are trained not to be  Although you are right of course there will be different types of reactions on the battlefield, It is plain and simple, Run to cover shoot back or hit the deck and shoot back. Sure it is very hard to code such things into games, (Game AI) And I understand if it is really a great hassle. I tried my fair run at game designing and I stopped right away the second I saw the amount of coding. 

For different situations I understand cowarding, For example if a grenade launcher explodes in front of me I will cover my head while on the floor. But if I see bullets flying at me my first instinct is to get to the nearest cover, Or even shoot back to try to get the drop on him. Of course then there is the combat fatigue, I read on some US psychological studies for the military, And they said the best a soldier is, Is during the 15-30 day mark periods of being deployed to action. After that they become fatigued, Which I won't argue against, But I think there should be another option for something like that, I never tried setting the morale to fanatic or extreme maybe that is a solution? Would be nice having US fanatics vs RU fanatics fighting it out in game  But seriously, Some of my troops just make me want to get into the game and yell at them for forgetting whenever comrade sergeant was beating him and kicking him around and worse of all making him peel potatoes during his army service. 

[sburke]

I have to agree with Vladimir Tarasov on this one. I mean honestly why does every thread in this forum have to turn political?

Curious that this is not the first time you have come to the defense of the pro Russian position once an argument begins asking why it has to be political but you don't make the complaint when the pro Russian position starts the politics.

• Steve used a well cited well known recent example of how soldiers react in combat, the subject of the discussion
• He actually complimented the GRU troops on their response as being the correct one. 
• The reaction from the pro Russian position was to complain about the GRU example citing it as western propaganda.
• Steve made a laughing stock of that with actual information
• the pro Russian poster complained about why it has to be turned political and then you backed him up.

I am sorry if our Russian friends on this forum are so overly sensitive that anything that even smells of criticizing Russia has to immediately be responded to but you can't have it both ways.  If you don't want it to become political, don't make it political.

By the way Vladimir, I did mean to pm you about beer recommendations, but real life stuff has kept me pre occupied... and I am sorely low on my beer intake lately....which reminds me, I have some in the fridge....

[Sgt Joch]

Curious that this is not the first time you have come to the defense of the pro Russian position once an argument begins asking why it has to be political but you don't make the complaint when the pro Russian position starts the politics.

Curious that your avatar has a doodyhead.

[VladimirTarasov]

Sburke looking forward to your PM 

[sburke]

Curious that your avatar has a doodyhead.

yes isn't it.  I wasn't trying to be subtle.  Perhaps you aren't getting the full image of the avatar.

the reason for the doodyhead is later however.  That was a wonderful addition from panzermike, artist extraordinaire.  He can get you one if you'd like.

[Kinophile]

 

• Steve used a well cited well known recent example of how soldiers react in combat, the subject of the discussion
• He actually complimented the GRU troops on their response as being the correct one. 
• The reaction from the pro Russian position was to complain about the GRU example citing it as western propaganda.
• Steve made a laughing stock of that with actual information
• the pro Russian poster complained about why it has to be turned political and then you backed him up.

I am sorry if our Russian friends on this forum are so overly sensitive that anything that even smells of criticizing Russia has to immediately be responded to but you can't have it both ways

This. 

I couldn't  articulate it any better myself. 

[Battlefront.com]

Please without escalating matters more, I'm just going to talk about why I think that my soldiers keep being a sissy we army boys are trained not to be 

 

 Fair enough.  I think the other discussion has been settled very solidly.

Although you are right of course there will be different types of reactions on the battlefield, It is plain and simple, Run to cover shoot back or hit the deck and shoot back. Sure it is very hard to code such things into games, (Game AI) And I understand if it is really a great hassle. I tried my fair run at game designing and I stopped right away the second I saw the amount of coding. 

For different situations I understand cowarding, For example if a grenade launcher explodes in front of me I will cover my head while on the floor. But if I see bullets flying at me my first instinct is to get to the nearest cover, Or even shoot back to try to get the drop on him. Of course then there is the combat fatigue, I read on some US psychological studies for the military, And they said the best a soldier is, Is during the 15-30 day mark periods of being deployed to action. After that they become fatigued, Which I won't argue against, But I think there should be another option for something like that, I never tried setting the morale to fanatic or extreme maybe that is a solution? Would be nice having US fanatics vs RU fanatics fighting it out in game  But seriously, Some of my troops just make me want to get into the game and yell at them for forgetting whenever comrade sergeant was beating him and kicking him around and worse of all making him peel potatoes during his army service. 

Generally speaking, good quality units in good condition should behave the way you suggest.  The individual soldiers should seek the closest cover and then assess their options.  One possible problem comes with defining the circumstances where staying in place is better than moving.  This is a very difficult task for the TacAI to do consistently well.  Most often because the TacAI is making decisions based on mathematics rather than the way Humans view the world.  The TacAI might very well think that staying in place has a 10% better survival chance than running to much better cover, so it keeps the soldier in place.  But for us Humans, we might evaluate the situation very differently and move to cover because it looks better (even if it is not).  As gamers we then see the difference between the TacAI's choice and the one we, the player, thinks is best.  Because there are millions of possible combinations, it is very difficult to always have the TacAI favor "Human" type reactions vs. "math" reactions.

When a pixel soldier finds itself in a really bad situation, it can get stuck in a cycle of not wanting to move (because of the math) and suffering morale penalties due to enemy fire.  This makes the pixel soldier even less likely to do what Humans expect it to.  If the soldier survives and is still under fire, at some point the TacAI decides that it is better to move than to stay in place.  However, this generally happens only when things are pretty bad.  That is to keep the TacAI from doing the wrong thing under other circumstances.

This is the big problem with TacAI.  If you tweak Behavior A for a specific situation you might find that it negatively affects other situations.  Or worse, entirely different behaviors that you don't want changed.  It is a very delicate thing to balance.

Steve

[A Canadian Cat]

 As gamers we then see the difference between the TacAI's choice and the one we, the player, thinks is best. 

This is huge IMHO.  While I will continue to advocate that people discuss things they thing are off because that is how real problems get discovered but *it does not matter what BFC makes the TacAI do* it will always be wrong from someone's point of view and they will write about it. This makes this kind of topic hard to discuss because someone always ends up making unreasonable demands for perfect pixel troops. 

BTW I think that @VladimirTarasov's OP is very good at bringing this this topic up - he started a discussion. 

[Nidan1]

I think Vladimir (but I am not going to put words or thoughts into your head) that we may have a language issue here. Your command of written English is very good Vladimir, but you are posting a word that really does not exist in English. "cowarding" is not a word, the English word coward means;  "a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things." The word used in the game is "cowering" which means; "to crouch down in fear." Now cowering does not necessarily mean that the soldier in the game has no courage, it means he is hiding from or trying to avoid incoming fire. He may start shooting back after a few seconds of cowering, or he may stay in that state for longer periods. Correct me if I am wrong Vladimir, but I think you are equating the act of cowering by the pixel troops as an act of cowardice, which IMO may not be the case. Or you may just have typo-ed the word.

I don't think that any simulation even one as well coded as Combat Mission can truly duplicate the mental and physical responses of a human being under combat conditions. This was well articulated by Steve, and all the points he makes reinforces this notion.

[A Canadian Cat]

Correct me if I am wrong Vladimir, but I think you are equating the act of cowering by the pixel troops as an act of cowardice, which IMO may not be the case.

That is a good point and the confusion is easily understandable because the cowering animation looks quite a bit like someone who has given up.  @RockinHarry in his animation thread pointed that out as well and I tend to agree that the current animation suggests more fear and less ducking for cover.

[VladimirTarasov]

IanL and Nidan1, Yep that's a typo alright sorry, I meant cowering.

Steve,

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to criticize the game, Just was wondering. But you're right perhaps I judged too early, I had great experiences in the last few scenarios.

[Battlefront.com]

IanL and Nidan1, Yep that's a typo alright sorry, I meant cowering.

Steve,

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to criticize the game, Just was wondering. But you're right perhaps I judged too early, I had great experiences in the last few scenarios.

Don't worry about being critical of the TacAI or anything else in the game.  Player input is a big reason why CM is very good at what it does.  The current TacAI behaviors have been constantly improved over time thanks to player input.  The problem we have is that at some point we reach a "point of diminishing returns" or, worse, a point of "unintended consequences".  Meaning, lots of effort to make the game a tiny bit better instead of using that energy to make something else a lot better.  Also, the TacAI is highly susceptible to a small fix for one area making many other areas work less well.  The TacAI is very sensitive to changes and those changes are often difficult to make, so we like to beat a subject to death before we engage in change.  It's the safest way to go

Steve

[Vet 0369]

I'm not really sure who said this, I think it was a general in the American Civil War. (is it a civil war when the "break-away" loses and a revolution when it wins?) the general said " a man can be a hero when his belly is full and his feet are dry, and a coward when he is hungry and has cold, wet feet." Vlad was obviously in an elite unit. Studies have shown that many infantry men never fire their weapons in a fire fight. They actually believe they are firing, but aren't. Also, muscle memory and reaction are developed through repetition. They take over so the soldier doesn't even have to consciously think about it. The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war. I get frustrated when my "normal" or "Veteran" troops cower, but I know it happens, so I don't worry about it. However, I definitely don't expect my "elite" or "crack" troops to cower though. 

I'd to thank Vlad for providing us an opportunity to converse with a real, knowledgeable balance to our sometimes my optic viewpoints, Not withstanding our persistent prejudices

[sburke]

While play testing a scenario for CMBS I had a team receive fire while moving in the open from an enemy unit in a building.  The tam paused, drilled the guy firing on them. Proceeded to their objective.  2 of the team took up positions facing the direction they had received fire from,  I stll have the pic on my home PC.  Soft factors can totally change your experience, they are there to allow us to simulate different quality troops.   Use the settings.