How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?

[moeburn]

Unlike a lot of real time strategy games I've played, Combat Mission seems to not like to alert you when your units are under fire.  All you get is the floating icon above their heads starts flashing, but that's only if they're even on screen.  I've found that if I'm zoomed in on some other unit, or my back is turned so that I can't see some of my friendly units, I'll turn the camera around and find that they all somehow died and I have no idea how.  Especially when one of your units is already in a gunfight so the sound of gunfire gets washed out by the other sounds of gunfire.

 

It would be nice to see some way of alerting you that one of your units is under attack.  Maybe some voice acting, so they come on the radio and yell "taking fire!"?  Or maybe a little flashing red arrow comes up on the screen to point in the direction you should turn your camera.  Or maybe a small minimap so that you can see all your floating icons at once?  Or maybe a text console at the top of the screen, so that even if your unit is off-screen, you can see something like "1h23m - M2A3 #4 - Laser Warning", and maybe even scroll back in history to see previous messages?

 

Right now there's just no way for me to safely manage multiple units at once, so I end up doing everything one unit at a time, and it's very inefficient.  Considering how little Combat Mission has changed over the years, I am feeling a little pessimistic about this series...

Edited June 23, 2015 by moeburn

[agusto]

Right now there's just no way for me to safely manage multiple units at once, so I end up doing everything one unit at a time, and it's very inefficient.  

 

Unless you play turnbased mode (WeGo), of course. Personally i recommend you to play WeGo when you play larger battles, after some time you will get accustomed to it and find it easier than RT.

[moeburn]

Unless you play turnbased mode (WeGo), of course. Personally i recommend you to play WeGo when you play larger battles, after some time you will get accustomed to it and find it easier than RT.

 

Well yeah, but Shock Force and onwards were designed around Realtime, and without a realtime way of alerting you to various things happening across the map, it feels like an incomplete implementation of realtime.

[agusto]

Well yeah, but Shock Force and onwards were designed around Realtime...

 

Where did you get this information from?

 

...and without a realtime way of alerting you to various things happening across the map, it feels like an incomplete implementation of realtime.

 

I get your point though. Alerts, notifications or whatever you want to call them would indeed help RT players to manage large battles. Still, there currently is no alert system, so as i said, i recommend you to play large battles in WeGo.

[MikeyD]

Remember you are not playing the part of all-knowing Godalmighty in the game, you're playing the part of - usually - the company commander. Sometimes the company commander discovers to his horror that his western outpost has been over-run while his attention was turned elsewhere and he's being encircled. War is hell that way.

[sburke]

Yeah to add to Agusto's point you may be mis interpreting CMSF.  While the core of the game is RT, it isn't true in terms of play style.  It has always had wego and it was just as valid then as now.  I think I understand why some players like RT, being able to act immediately, but I really like the playback and you only get that in wego.  If you are having trouble managing units I'd definitely suggest wego, with one caveat.  Be prepared to see your men die anyway, but you will at least see it.  For 60 seconds though that is all you get to do. 

[grunt_GI]

Well, I play almost exclusively RT...and like MikeyD says, that is, at least to me, a feature of RT..sometimes you lose the bubble and your guys pay the price.  I usually play at a decent elevation so I can scan the battlefield and I keep a good unit rotation, but when the fur flies....it can get overwhelming.  

 

My one concession to large or really intense battles is that I may <ahem> cheat a little and hit ESC to pause the game...especially if I need to do mundane things like have my infantry grab Javelins while mounted or to find a particular unit....then I resume.

 

WeGO does have it's benefits...although I find it equally annoying to have to watch your guys die horrible deaths for 1 minute and not be able to do anything...so it's really a personal preference...I just find RT keeps the game moving...which is important for me as my CM time is often at a premium.

 

Good luck and good hunting.

[womble]

Either play WeGo, or use the pause button more.

[MikeyD]

There are two primary personality types playing the game. The first type is the 'winning is everything' type. The kind'a guy who would jam a Phillips head screwdriver into the back of his computer if he thought he could gain a gameplay advantage from it. The second type is the 'your own personal war movie' type. For these people loosing is okay as long as it included some evocative Spielbergian cinematic touches along the way. To optimize CM gameplay you have to first figure out first which personality type you are. 

[moeburn]

Where did you get this information from?

 

 

From an old thread a long time ago, asking about the quality of the graphics engine, one of the creators started to chime in.  IIRC, he said something along the lines of "Shock Force was always designed to have Real Time, to appeal to more players, but we needed to keep WeGo to please the old players, so because of coding limitations and the way the realtime engine works, the game was built around realtime and configured to run wego as an option" - I think I was asking why the framerate didn't improve dramatically if the game pre-calculated everything before each turn in WeGo, and he said it's because WeGo is using the real time engine, so all the bullet and projectile flight paths are still being calculated in real time, just the AI movement decisions are precalculated.

[moeburn]

Well, I play almost exclusively RT...and like MikeyD says, that is, at least to me, a feature of RT..sometimes you lose the bubble and your guys pay the price.  I usually play at a decent elevation so I can scan the battlefield and I keep a good unit rotation, but when the fur flies....it can get overwhelming.  

 

My one concession to large or really intense battles is that I may <ahem> cheat a little and hit ESC to pause the game...especially if I need to do mundane things like have my infantry grab Javelins while mounted or to find a particular unit....then I resume.

 

WeGO does have it's benefits...although I find it equally annoying to have to watch your guys die horrible deaths for 1 minute and not be able to do anything...so it's really a personal preference...I just find RT keeps the game moving...which is important for me as my CM time is often at a premium.

 

Good luck and good hunting.

 

Yeah, I like WeGo's ability to go back and review what happened for each unit, but I don't like that I have to watch my guys die for a whole minute, so I play RT.  I've figured out how to make it work - using high elevation camera angles to see the units flashing, pausing more, but this is really a simple feature that I feel should be added.

[moeburn]

Remember you are not playing the part of all-knowing Godalmighty in the game, you're playing the part of - usually - the company commander. Sometimes the company commander discovers to his horror that his western outpost has been over-run while his attention was turned elsewhere and he's being encircled. War is hell that way.

 

Well the company commander is quite capable of keeping his floating camera high up in the air looking down on the battlefield to see if any of his unit's icons start flashing, you'd think he'd have the resources to have a second monitor with that view permanently up, or a beeping noise in addition to the flashing when they're off screen, or a text console or something.

[moeburn]

The second type is the 'your own personal war movie' type. For these people loosing is okay as long as it included some evocative Spielbergian cinematic touches along the way. To optimize CM gameplay you have to first figure out first which personality type you are. 

 

That is absolutely me, and that's partly what I love about this game - the scenario editor lets you create your own personal war movie stories.  But I just find it so baffling that I can have a floating camera to see all my unit's icons in mid air, and if any of them encounter any trouble, they start flashing, but they don't even make a beeping noise if they're off screen, or a text console to show me messages, or a minimap, or anything like that to make the game even more enjoyable.  I like to lose because I was outwitted, because I didn't solve the puzzle, because my tactics weren't smart enough.  I don't like to lose because of a cumbersome UI.

Edited June 23, 2015 by moeburn

[Ryujin]

I think it's pretty much impossible to do well playing full real time above a platoon size simply because you don't just play as the company commander.

 

You also have to do the jobs of every platoon and squad leader simultaneously. You don't have any subordinates to handle the details, you need to micromanage your units as the AI will not do anything useful on it's own (outside of self preservation sometimes). I usually play wego because it's nice to review turns and I like not quite being able to intervene instantly (but I also tend to avoid borg area fire and such).

 

When playing RT I pause every so often to just do a review of my units and their status. An auto pause on casualties or something could be nice though. 

Edited June 23, 2015 by Ryujin

[moeburn]

 An auto pause on casualties or something could be nice though. 

 

Yes!  Even something just as simple as that.

[Fizou]

I played RT back in the day, it has its advantages but I get so much more enjoyment out of WEGO. Please try it if you haven't. If you still don't like it, lets hope BF implements something to alert for casualties, more than the flashing icons we have now.  

[Melchior]

Radio chatter would be an ideal way to alert the player about things like that. The game already does it for fire missions.

Right now there's just no way for me to safely manage multiple units at once, so I end up doing everything one unit at a time, and it's very inefficient. Considering how little Combat Mission has changed over the years, I am feeling a little pessimistic about this series...

Now you know how an actual Battalion commander feels in a fight ie: overwhelmed. One of the things you should learn to live with in CM is that disasters will happen. Casualties are routine but we're all going to have those "one guy with a PPsh wiped out a squad and repelled a platoon" moments.

[Apocal]

Right now there's just no way for me to safely manage multiple units at once, so I end up doing everything one unit at a time, and it's very inefficient.  Considering how little Combat Mission has changed over the years, I am feeling a little pessimistic about this series...

 

Have you tried fighting from a raised three-quarter camera position that keeps most of your men in view? That's what I do and I can usually manage a company on the attack. Granted, that means I'm generally only pushing a platoon around at once, while the two or three others are lending support and mostly static. Other than that, I (rarely) smack the pause button when things get too intense.

[moeburn]

One of the things you should learn to live with in CM is that disasters will happen. Casualties are routine but we're all going to have those "one guy with a PPsh wiped out a squad and repelled a platoon" moments.

 

Absolutely, I welcome those moments, when they are a result of my poor tactics and planning.  When that happens, it makes the game feel more intense, more realistic, and I keep playing.  Not when they are a result of a cumbersome UI.  If I didn't even get a chance to see it happen, then it doesn't feel like I lost that unit because of my poor skills, it feels like I lost them because of a crappy interface, and that frustrates me and I end up reloading the last save game.  

Edited June 23, 2015 by moeburn

[moeburn]

Have you tried fighting from a raised three-quarter camera position that keeps most of your men in view? That's what I do and I can usually manage a company on the attack. Granted, that means I'm generally only pushing a platoon around at once, while the two or three others are lending support and mostly static. Other than that, I (rarely) smack the pause button when things get too intense.

 

Yeah that is the best solution I've come up with, is hanging the camera in a position that keeps all my units in view.  Of course there are instances when you really need to zoom in on something to target or navigate it properly.

[Vinnart]

Remember you are not playing the part of all-knowing Godalmighty in the game, you're playing the part of - usually - the company commander. Sometimes the company commander discovers to his horror that his western outpost has been over-run while his attention was turned elsewhere and he's being encircled. War is hell that way.

Horse Hockey!  (Just had a little Col. Potter flashback Rather ridiculous reasoning there. If the game were trying to simulate that there would be no camera view over position 1 even for WEGO. You do play WEGO that way don't you to keep it real right? Of course you don't becuase that would be very frustrating, and not many people want that out of their games. The funny thing is when I see comments like that I know it does not come from much if any playing experience in Real Time.

[Vinnart]

Moeburn,

Your point is very valid to the short comings Combat Mission has as far as Real Time play goes. Fortunately Steve, at Battlefront is a Real Time player and understands this. Hopefully sometime in the future the game will adopt something like the ROSTER concept that addresses exactly what you are talking about.

 

ROSTER SUMMERY:This is a drop down, and collapsible situational tool that allows one to see the status of all information one would only get by selecting each unit individually. It is basically a visual players radio that allows him to see 360 degrees at all times that connects him to the force, but it has sound toggle too. It can also be used to navigate the game. Read the thread describing it if you want to know all it's functions. it is the ultimate situational tool for the player that can be deciphered at a glance being icon based.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/103880-know-all-at-a-glance/

 

As for dealing with RT play as it is now I can tell you a few good hints. Some of which others have mentioned.

1) Do not approach RT with a WEGO mindset. Be prepared to probably take more casualties. Don't dwell on it. Keep the overall in mind and don't get too caught up in micro managing.

 

2) Try to stay at camera level 4-5 so you can keep on eye an as much of the force at all times. This is the hardest thing as far as Real Time goes compared to other RT games. The Line of sight and terrain are much more complex, and here is where the biggest problem lies as you have to drop down losing sight of the force compared to WEGO which can rewind and see from multiple angles. This is the prime reason for the ROSTER concept to “see all” at all times like WEGO can. The idea is to take the frustrating part out so you can enjoy the fun part like the combat and strategy.

 

3) Become more attuned to the LOS/target tool to get a feel for the land from above.

 

4) Use the indefinite PAUSE command. Issue it first, then issue your order, check LoS and so on. When satisfied, release the Pause to start the move. This technique will allow you to be able to simulate a more WEGO approach where things can be checked without committing to a move. It can also be used to coordinate multiple units to move at the same time. Just select them all and release the Pause command.

 

5) Get a mouse with many buttons, and Nostromo speedpad. With these you will issue commands faster than you though imagined. If you do not have these or want to invest, then make a custom hotkey setup on your regular keyboard optimized for REAL TIME. The idea is to make the most used command accessible with the left hand by feel, and the rest accessed via the spacebar. If you are searching for hotkeys, or moving the curser a lot hit command buttons you are too slow.

 

6) Lastly, don’t play against me real time

Edited June 23, 2015 by Vinnart

[moeburn]

Moeburn,

Your point is very valid to the short comings Combat Mission has as far as Real Time play goes. Fortunately Steve, at Battlefront is a Real Time player and understands this. Hopefully sometime in the future the game will adopt something like the ROSTER concept that addresses exactly what you are talking about.

 

ROSTER SUMMERY:This is a drop down, and collapsible situational tool that allows one to see the status of all information one would only get by selecting each unit individually. It is basically a visual players radio that allows him to see 360 degrees at all times that connects him to the force, but it has sound toggle too. It can also be used to navigate the game. Read the thread describing it if you want to know all it's functions. it is the ultimate situational tool for the player that can be deciphered at a glance being icon based.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/103880-know-all-at-a-glance/

 

As for dealing with RT play as it is now I can tell you a few good hints. Some of which others have mentioned.

1) Do not approach RT with a WEGO mindset. Be prepared to probably take more casualties. Don't dwell on it. Keep the overall in mind and don't get too caught up in micro managing.

 

2) Try to stay at camera level 4-5 so you can keep on eye an as much of the force at all times. This is the hardest thing as far as Real Time goes compared to other RT games. The Line of sight and terrain are much more complex, and here is where the biggest problem lies as you have to drop down losing sight of the force compared to WEGO which can rewind and see from multiple angles. This is the prime reason for the ROSTER concept to “see all” at all times like WEGO can. The idea is to take the frustrating part out so you can enjoy the fun part like the combat and strategy.

 

3) Become more attuned to the LOS/target tool to get a feel for the land from above.

 

4) Use the indefinite PAUSE command. Issue it first, then issue your order, check LoS and so on. When satisfied, release the Pause to start the move. This technique will allow you to be able to simulate a more WEGO approach where things can be checked without committing to a move. It can also be used to coordinate multiple units to move at the same time. Just select them all and release the Pause command.

 

5) Get a mouse with many buttons, and Nostromo speedpad. With these you will issue commands faster than you though imagined. If you do not have these or want to invest, then make a custom hotkey setup on your regular keyboard optimized for REAL TIME. The idea is to make the most used command accessible with the left hand by feel, and the rest accessed via the spacebar. If you are searching for hotkeys, or moving the curser a lot hit command buttons you are too slow.

 

6) Lastly, don’t play against me real time

 

The fact that this roster concept was brought up and heavily discussed over 3 years ago only solidifies my fear that not a damn thing in the Combat Mission series is ever going to change.  

[Vergeltungswaffe]

... not a damn thing in the Combat Mission series is ever going to change.  

 

Worst. Post. Ever.

[moeburn]

Worst. Post. Ever.

 

Why is that?  I mean it's true.  I love this game to death but it's been 8 years since the last major update.  Everything after Shock Force has amounted to what other companies would sell as expansion packs.  I honestly cannot think of a single major change to Combat Mission that has been made since Shock Force.

Edited June 23, 2015 by moeburn