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Kibitzer's Korner - Gamey SOB Challenge - No Doug No Bil


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Not sure we need one but what the hey! 

 

How about that map?  Any idea where the extra foliage came from?

 

Anyone else load up their forces and take a whack at this against the AI?  The Panthers are a real pain for the AI.  I need to flip to the Allies to see if I can manage to kill them from the heights.

 

Post any comments you may have that neither Bil or Doug should see until after.

 

Thanks,

Bobo

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Norway? Humph....probably researching some minutiae for the next module. Oops, did I just say something I shoudn't have?  ;)

 

 

The Shermans have a slight chance (IMHO) of KO'ing the Panthers. Doug needs to get the Panthers up high and overwatch. I haven't tested anything, nor have I opened the map to see if there's any terrain like that. But, it seems like Doug can achieve long range superiority if he keeps his two panthers up and ready.

 

I also think that Doug was lucky with that mob forward move! Gadzooks....

 

 

My .02.

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I was able to plunk two Sherman's with the buttoned up and non moving Panthers.

There's no question that any Shermans that stay visible will be at serious risk from those kitties' guns... Bil is executing "pop-up" attacks which will leverage the poorer spotting of the Panthers. The Panthers will struggle to do the same, lacking defilade to withdraw to, and remain both at enhanced risk from plunging fire, and visible so infantry or armoured flanking maneuvers can be properly directed to neutralise them.

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Hmmmm I have not loaded up the map but I fear for Bil,

 

;)

 

You see from what I can see I don't think it is great tank country, the off road moves will be limited by the poor terrain (boulders etc..) that and the small map size limits any easy flank moves to take on the sides of the Panthers.

 

His height advantage might be the key if he can obtain plunging fire on the top armour? But if Doug can get the right angles he will control the floor of the valley, from the way I am seeing it at the moment...

 

I think it could be down to infantry and smoke etc... with Zooks... Not sure how many he has? Will have to double check his force composition....

 

Not sure the Shermans will be able to get down that road now the Panthers are in position? But oif course I could be wrong and very happy to be sat on the side lines eating pop corn...

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  • 2 weeks later...

The more I look at this the more I am wondering how Bil will win this one. He might have to sacrifice some bait Sherman's in the hope of getting a side shot on one of those Panthers?

There is no easy way to get those Sherman's down the slope and on the sides of those Panthers. The AT guns are not easily going to be manhandled into position and set up in time...

Obviously long way to go but at the moment I am struggling to find the silver bullet for Bil.

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Bil can win it.

The Americans can obliquely attack up the left towards Rovinetta ridge with only infantry. An attack on that side is concealed from the Panthers in the center and the infantry on the Finnochio side of the map. Bil's multitude of comments about trees and such suggest he might be planning this.

The Panthers will not be knocked out. For now, Bil can only hope to drive them back and blind them, putting them out of position.

Doug is vulnerable to such an attack. Half his infantry is committed to Finnochio and will be easily pinned in the nearby forest. He has no armor up on Rovinetta ridge with which to defeat an infantry push on that side (which Bil also knows now).


 

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I can see another approach now we have seen how the shermans arte being infiltrated down the valley...

 

If he can get the Shermans on the valley floor to the right below Finnochio ridge and out of site of the Panthers he can control that side and force the Panthers to attack side on to the M10 and the AT guns.

 

I think that is what he has in mind with the Shermans moving down.

 

I agree his (Bil's) Infantry on the left are a force to be reckoned with and will force the Panthers to give them attention while he will move the Shermas into that sweet spot on the right.

 

Doug  in his last post is saying he has not seen the Shermans but if you watch the video carefully he is getting sound contacts and he will have to act on those if he has seen them. That should give him a clue as to the Shermans are no longer above him...

 

I also notice from Doug's video that he still has quite a few units far back (such as HQ and Shreck team) that do not seem to be moving forward. I am not so sure having a reserve that far back will help him, he IMO needs those further up, especially the shreck team.

 

In regards to Bil's inantry having total control over the left side, I am not sure that the tree's will provide that much cover, but without loading the map up I am not 100% certain about what LOS opportunities exits to infiltrate his infantry along that route...

 

Still lots to play for, and with the number of hits on those Panthers, it is only a matter of time for one to be taken out.... (that or M10 to be knocked out by a single Panther hit...)

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Still lots to play for, and with the number of hits on those Panthers, it is only a matter of time for one to be taken out.... (that or M10 to be knocked out by a single Panther hit...)

 

I think that last bit is the big worry - it's always risky to have so much depend on one unit. Now I know Bil is not unaware of that so he is going to be careful but still - it's the best chance of knocking out the Panthers or minimizing their contribution by making them pull back. 

 

Doug picked well when he chose Panthers, as long as he can protect their flanks. 

 

What about that mortar duel and the MG that Bil succeeded in knocking out? The German squads have a lot of firepower in their organic LMGs so does it really matter? The mortar seems to me to be the big thing. 

Edited by Bud_B
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Yes the loss of the mortar is critical when he is short on infantry, that team could have balanced up his fight against the more numerous Americans.

It would not have been so bad if he had knocked out Bils mortars.

I can see the Panthers getting distracted by Bils infantry and then getting whacked by the M10 or Sherman's.

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Bil's 60mm mortars have the potential to do as much damage as the Germans' LMGs do, I reckon.

 

At the angles of incidence that the terrain provides, it is, indeed, a matter of time before the Panthers get whacked by the M10. I've lost track of whether the dead-TC Panther is withdrawing into the path of the Shermans who've come off the hill. If the M10 can persuade Doug to keep the Panthers firmly pointed at the ridge, even 45 degree off-axis hits from the regular Shermans will have a chance against the side armour; there's no particular need to actually get "past the plane of the Panthers' fronts"

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I wonder if the tiger would have been a better choice? The tigers armour is not as angled as the Panther so does not rely on the deflected angle. So in this situation the M10 would be worse off against a tiger? If you get my gist?

Those 60mm are lethal and I don't see the Germans winning the infantry battle in this terrain. Bil has quantity on his side....

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Bil's 60mm mortars have the potential to do as much damage as the Germans' LMGs do, I reckon.

 

At the angles of incidence that the terrain provides, it is, indeed, a matter of time before the Panthers get whacked by the M10. I've lost track of whether the dead-TC Panther is withdrawing into the path of the Shermans who've come off the hill. If the M10 can persuade Doug to keep the Panthers firmly pointed at the ridge, even 45 degree off-axis hits from the regular Shermans will have a chance against the side armour; there's no particular need to actually get "past the plane of the Panthers' fronts"

Yep those Panthers will need very careful handling, will be interesting to see when Doug makes some comments about the sound contacts of those Sherman's.

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I wonder if the tiger would have been a better choice? The tigers armour is not as angled as the Panther so does not rely on the deflected angle. So in this situation the M10 would be worse off against a tiger? If you get my gist?

Those 60mm are lethal and I don't see the Germans winning the infantry battle in this terrain. Bil has quantity on his side....

 

Funny you mention the Tiger as a better alternative to the Panther. I was thinking the same thing earlier and wondered if I was just being biased. 

 

It's not merely a question of the slope of the armour but the thickness too. Panther flanks are barely over half the thickness of the Tiger. The Shermans would have a tougher time dealing with the Tiger from any angle, not just the front. 

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Yes, looking at it and as noted by Womble the Panther is looking a poor choice, especially if the price is not too different? Could be a key mistake? Also I bet the 88mm gun would not have bounced off the Sherman...

I would also guess the 88mm HE round is more powerful.

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Yes, looking at it and as noted by Womble the Panther is looking a poor choice, especially if the price is not too different? Could be a key mistake? Also I bet the 88mm gun would not have bounced off the Sherman...

At these ranges, the gunnery stats I've usually seen show the panther's 75L70 has better armour penetration than the Tiger's 88L56. The King Tiger's 88 is another matter. But really, its not a case of ballistic inadequacues, either German gun is more than enough. More telling is how thick the hide is and there, the tiger I believe is more suited for this fight.

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Yes, looking at it and as noted by Womble the Panther is looking a poor choice, especially if the price is not too different? Could be a key mistake? Also I bet the 88mm gun would not have bounced off the Sherman...

I would also guess the 88mm HE round is more powerful.

As Bud says, either gun is enough to deal with Sherman armour on the level, but the L70 has better AP performance.

 

The 88mm round's HE performance is certainly better than the Panther's 75mm high velocity round. Like the Firefly, the Panther's anti-personnel/urban renewal capabilities are sub-par.

 

The Tiger I don't think would be in a much better position against the plunging fire of the M10. Any radical penetrations are most likely to come from "Top armour" hits made possible by the relative canting of the hull because of the terrain, and I think even the L/40 gun of the M4s would be adequate against either target's top armour. Indeed, I'd've been tempted to leave one Sherman up top to help the M10 keep the Panthers pointed that way (and as additional misdirection).  The Tiger's slab sides would be very helpful against the closing M4s though, but would have meant Doug had even fewer infantry available to screen the woods and help stop the Amis getting rear shots.

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The Tiger's slab sides would be very helpful against the closing M4s though, but would have meant Doug had even fewer infantry available to screen the woods and help stop the Amis getting rear shots.

IIRC the Tiger's rear armour is the same as its side - 80mm. The rear has a slight slope to it that the sides do not so one might argue that turning tail may have its advantages over being flanked! :P

Edited by Bud_B
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Another Sherman with the M10 would be useful for more AP/HE lobbing and, more importantly, another set of defensive smoke. The Shermans in the woods will be a nice surprise for Doug. :) 

 

I'm surprised Bil had an ATG platoon HQ leading the pack. (The one that Doug's guys gunned down.) I don't see much use being made of scouts, by either player. There are not enough infantry to waste using half-squads as fodder. A pair of scout teams ahead of each platoon can really save the day. But then I'm not playing. There are more pressures when you're in the arena than when you're up in the bleachers.

 

Bil will unleash a flood in about 5 turns. It'll be interesting to see how Doug's men transition to defense, where they hold and where they fold, and then how he'll regain that left flank. (I'd push ahead and then turn in behind Bil's forces...the ones Bil is pushing on his right flank.)

 

Ken

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I'm surprised Bil had an ATG platoon HQ leading the pack. (The one that Doug's guys gunned down.) I don't see much use being made of scouts, by either player. There are not enough infantry to waste using half-squads as fodder. A pair of scout teams ahead of each platoon can really save the day. But then I'm not playing. There are more pressures when you're in the arena than when you're up in the bleachers.

 

 

 

Ken

 

Yes I was surprised to seea HQ group leading, but I guess he has given up on the AT guns and has no need to keep their morale up? Or down as it will now be...

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Womble noted your comments re the Tank Sound icons and I would have read it that if I saw three different sound contacts at same time that it was three tanks. Am I missing something in my undeerstanding of the game engine?

 

I agree if you do not see all at same time that it might be just one tank, but I think seeing three moving seperately as shown on the last two turns would make me think 3 tanks...

 

Doug has to work out a plan for those tanks as he is about to be flanked with the shermans hidden from view of the Panthers.

 

If that happens he will ceed the valley floor on his left flank as to go for them he will have to turn side on to the M10, (and maybe even the AT guns if Bil is as cunning as I think he is) depending on sight lines... He has had two turns now with out mentioning what he plans to do and I do not want to prompt him.

 

If Bil can get those Shermans hidden by the ridge and in the valley he will then have sight lines to Doug's right flank and will be able to support is troops with HE and smoke in the attack. This is a real critical moment for Doug and he needs to work out a plan.

 

Having one of his Shreck teams so far back is not going to help.... With this map moving into position you are too exposed and need to be already there when things appear.

 

That and Bil's dominance with Arty I am changing my view on the situation. I guess it all changed when I learnt Bil could get those Shermans down without using the road and you can see that the apporach is masked by the ridge line.

 

In some ways that valley floor location would have been best place for the Panthers, but too late for Doug to get them there now....

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Womble noted your comments re the Tank Sound icons and I would have read it that if I saw three different sound contacts at same time that it was three tanks. Am I missing something in my undeerstanding of the game engine?

 

 

From watching the video, it might be three tanks, but I believe the same "track" could be made by a single vehicle, with old "contacts" persisting. It may be that observing them from different angles would let you distinguish two or more separate movement tracks, but I'd tend to veer towards the cautious side.

 

Edit: upon watching the second and third videos of that turn, I would indeed conclude that there were probably more than one tank involved. It's the kind of thing I'd squint at from several angles if I was playing, just to see what the UI is trying to tell me.

Edited by womble
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Not only does Bil have quantity on his side, but on an individual basis, his men have an average firepower advantage over Doug as well.

Gotta love that M1 Garand.

 

I think the opening moves by the infantry on both sides will prove decisive. Doug cannot easily use his Panthers to support his infantry with that M10 providing top cover, and Bil can't use his Shermans effectively until the Panthers are knocked out.

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