Troop experiance . nothing re this in manual?Whats it do?

[silent one]

Unit attribute experience, I cant find out what troop experience does in the game.  Leadership gives you bonuses in actions and can boost troop moral. Moral helps troops not get pinned . But what does experience atrtribute do. The basic manual says no modifier. p31 So why have it.  If I pay extra for my troops to be elite . does it do anything other than look cool on the troop screen?

[AttorneyAtWar]

Unit attribute experience, I cant find out what troop experience does in the game.  Leadership gives you bonuses in actions and can boost troop moral. Moral helps troops not get pinned . But what does experience atrtribute do. The basic manual says no modifier. p31 So why have it.  If I pay extra for my troops to be elite . does it do anything other than look cool on the troop screen?

 

Experience (Green, Regular, Veteran ETC) is how good units are at shooting, and how easily they break/cower when under fire. For example, an elite sniper team will kill a lot more people faster than a green one, and they can take some fire before becoming pinned down. This also affects to a certain degree how well they follow orders like when using cover arcs or hiding, less experienced troops may break a cover arc order and fire at units outside of them, while experienced units will follow it to a "T".

Edited June 4, 2015 by Raptorx7

[Kieme(ITA)]

Also spotting ability is affected, better troops will have better spotting ability.

[Thewood1]

I don't think BFC has ever officially defined what those particular modifiers really do.  I has been asked a lot.

[A Canadian Cat]

I'm a bit confused about who is confused about what.   Lets start by pointing out that all these soft factors are defined in the manual.  For the CMBS game see page 94 of the CM Engine Manual v3.01.pdf

 

In there it defines what the different soft factors do.  The reference on page 31 that says no modifier just means that the experience attribute has no modifier (there is only conscript, green, regular, veteran, crack and elite but no pluses or minuses in addition).  It does not mean that the experience soft factor has no effect!

 

Page 94 describes the different soft factors well enough for me.  Have people read that and are still not sure what effect they have?

[George MC]

Here is the info taken from the steer IanL gave above.

 

EXPERIENCE – determines the experience and training level of the soldiers of the formation. Options include:

- Conscript: draftees with little training and no combat experience whatsoever.

 

- Green: draftees with little training and some combat experience or reservists with some training and no combat experience. Green can also represent professional soldiers whose training is substandard in comparison to another force.

 

- Regular: professional soldiers who went through extensive, quality training programs, but lack combat experience. Or, Regular can represent troops that received mediocre training that have a fair amount of combat experience.

 

- Veteran: professional soldiers with standard military training and first hand combat experience. Alternatively, it can be professional soldiers who have trained to a slightly higher standard than Regulars, yet lack combat experience.

 

- Crack: exceptional soldiers with more than the average training and plenty of combat experience.

 

- Elite: the best of the best. Superb training, frequent combat experience, and generally all around tough guys.

 

MOTIVATION – determines the soldiers’ will to fight. Options range from Fanatic (soldier will never give up and fight even when facing certain death) all the way to Poor (soldier has little desire to fight and will take the first chance to rout).

 

FITNESS – determines the inherent degree of physical readiness of the unit’s soldiers. This influences on how quickly soldiers tire and recover from physical tasks, such as running or being bombarded by enemy fire. Options include: Fit, Weakened, and Unfit.

 

LEADERSHIP – the capability and experience of the unit leader does not always correspond with the quality of the unit. This rating allows a unit to range from great soldiers and terrible leaders, or terrible soldiers and great leaders. The values are from -2 to +2, indicating the leader’s influence on the unit cohesion and various other capabilities.

[George MC]

So in a nutshell 

 

Troops who are 'conscripts' with 'poor' morale led by a leader with '-2' modifier will most likely poop their pants and run as soon as they hear/smell the enemy! 

 

Troops who are 'elite' with 'fanatic' morale led by a leader with a '+2' modifier will be cyborgs dealing fatal death to any and all who get in their sights, whilst refusing to give up and die!

 

Both are a bit tongue in cheek but you get the drift.

 

In reality the combination of these soft factors allows a great deal of granularity for the scenario designer to simulate troops behaving in ways that refelct their training, leadership, previous combat experience and casualties suffered etc etc.

 

It also greatly affects how troops behave under fire and pose the main challenging a player will face commanding troops as how best to manage his living breathing pixeltruppen.

[womble]

Things "Experience" affects: weapon handling; observation; stealthiness; cover-seeking.

 

High experience troops shoot more accurately, have a better chance of spotting enemies, make better use of concealment and so are harder for the enemy to spot and get a better "terrain save" (an abstraction that represents microterrain, that the game's definition cannot represent directly and other terrain-based cover like buildings, providing protection from incoming fire).

 

I don't know for sure that high experience will cower less  for the same level of effect of incoming, but their terrain save will probably mean that the same incoming fire will have a lower level of effect on them.

[Thewood1]

Things "Experience" affects: weapon handling; observation; stealthiness; cover-seeking.

 

High experience troops shoot more accurately, have a better chance of spotting enemies, make better use of concealment and so are harder for the enemy to spot and get a better "terrain save" (an abstraction that represents microterrain, that the game's definition cannot represent directly and other terrain-based cover like buildings, providing protection from incoming fire).

 

I don't know for sure that high experience will cower less  for the same level of effect of incoming, but their terrain save will probably mean that the same incoming fire will have a lower level of effect on them.

 

This is kind of what I am getting at.  Troops perform a number of actions and are impact by a number of things.  Which ones are impacted by these modifiers.  And while guessing is interesting, I have never seen anything from BFC about that in particular.

[Kieme(ITA)]

You can have interesting mixes, like fanatic conscripts. Don't give any hope they can operate heavy machinery, drive without crashing or hit anything at ten meters, but rest assured they will keep trying.

[womble]

This is kind of what I am getting at.  Troops perform a number of actions and are impact by a number of things.  Which ones are impacted by these modifiers.  And while guessing is interesting, I have never seen anything from BFC about that in particular.

I wasn't guessing about the things that weren't prefaced by "I don't know". All the other four things are immediately obvious if you just set up the most basic of firefights in the editor and run it once with Conscript and once with Elite troops against the same opposition.

 

BFC will never definitively state the actual magnitude of the effects because they don't want to go down the demystification route, mostly because there are so many factors affecting performance that any attempt to do so would be futile and a disservice to the players of the game. The "don't know" part of my post illustrates this: more experienced troops keep firing when taking suppression for longer, true, but is that because they're more resilient, mentally, or because they make better use of the microterrain available, and so are less suppressed "per incoming unit of fire" than less experienced troops would be? We can't and shouldn't know this.

[kevinkin]

If the player fights with highly experienced well led troops poorly they will suffer the from the poor play but are they better off than if the same player fights with poor troops expertly?

Sorry, just out of the new wave thread.

I think player skill remains the key factor of the many factors involved.

Kevin

[Thewood1]

I wasn't guessing about the things that weren't prefaced by "I don't know". All the other four things are immediately obvious if you just set up the most basic of firefights in the editor and run it once with Conscript and once with Elite troops against the same opposition.

 

BFC will never definitively state the actual magnitude of the effects because they don't want to go down the demystification route, mostly because there are so many factors affecting performance that any attempt to do so would be futile and a disservice to the players of the game. The "don't know" part of my post illustrates this: more experienced troops keep firing when taking suppression for longer, true, but is that because they're more resilient, mentally, or because they make better use of the microterrain available, and so are less suppressed "per incoming unit of fire" than less experienced troops would be? We can't and shouldn't know this.

 

I am not looking for a number, but your list makes sense...aiming, seeing, moving, follow orders, etc.  What things are effected by those levels.  Why not a list of them.  Is it like with spotting, WYSIWYG sort of...I am interested in the sort of definition.

[exsonic01]

I have a question about leadership. Does the leadership of HQ squad affects to all other soldiers? I mean 'leadership' of Battalion HQ, Company HQ, or Platoon HQ. 

 

For example, if the Battalion HQ squad have +2 leadership, is this bonus affects all battalion members? Or only to his HQ squad members? Same question with Company / Platoon HQ. 

 

Also, if the leader / commander KIA during battle in those HQ squad, who took over the command, and how the leadership changes? 

 

Thanks 

[MOS:96B2P]

Also, if the leader / commander KIA during battle in those HQ squad, who took over the command, and how the leadership changes? 

 

If there is an XO he will take over command.  The below thread and screen shots are from a WWII title but it works the same in Black Sea. 

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118325-xo-takes-over-from-kia-co/

[Sublime]

If the player fights with highly experienced well led troops poorly they will suffer the from the poor play but are they better off than if the same player fights with poor troops expertly?

Sorry, just out of the new wave thread.

I think player skill remains the key factor of the many factors involved.

Kevin

yes. the troops will probanly kill lots of enemy and may win despite the commander. but theyll take unncessarilly heavy casualties due to idiotic situations there god like cmdr (the player) puts them and his possible ignorance of orders fire support or whatever. IMO the two forces im the 2 cm games you can afford to be am idiot cmdr like drooling cup status anf stand a chance of winning despite yourself is the US vs AI in CMSF and CMBS. this also assumes theyre given the usual soft factors given by most scenarios and campaigns which i mostly agree with, edvept for a few user made ones that feature cyborg US or Waffen SS forces and of course this isnt always. Edited June 7, 2015 by Sublime

[womble]

 

For example, if the Battalion HQ squad have +2 leadership, is this bonus affects all battalion members? Or only to his HQ squad members? Same question with Company / Platoon HQ. 

 

The general perception is that it doesn't have much, if any effect. Platoon HQs do benefit from higher leadership, because their directly subordinate elements are usually in relatively tight command, and are the ones that need the support. Company and Battalion HQs don't have many, if any, "pointy-end" subordinate units, so any help they give isn't as useful, and those subordinates are being commanded through less immediate C2 links, by and large (if they're in command at all, in the case of poorly-equipped formations like Italians in the WW2 titles), which aren't expected to pass on the full benefit (else why distinguish between, Sight, Voice, Distant Sight and Comms?).

[Thewood1]

I can't find the link, but someone did some testing on specifically in one the CM2 games.  I know that is vague, but there is an unofficial answer out there somewhere.  But don't bother looking for anything official.