Lt Bull Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Hi I haven't really used them too much but haven't had this happen before: I'm in a game where the artillery spotters can see them available in the Fire Mission Support Request tab, but when I select them and try to click a point on the map they have LOS for the fire mission, the mouse pointer says "No line of SIght. Range Xm. No Line of Fire." Oddly the range displayed is relative to the spotter as well. As a check, I selected the HQ unit of the guns who is with the guns and see what happens if he tried to order a fire mission. Seems it works for him exactly how I thought it should work for everyone else. I've checked manual for what it's worth and it doesn't seem to mention anything special about onbaord arty except the potential for being inside min range or outside max range, What is going on here? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Good morning Lt. (At least it is morning where I am) Just a few more details please for when the real experts arrive to read your question. What type of hardware do you have on the map that you are trying to give the fire mission to? I assume some type of mortars? Oddly the range displayed is relative to the spotter as well. I think this is normal. The range displayed is the "Spotting" range of the spotter. If you are using on map mortars I have seen where mortars will not fire because they are under a thick tree cover or to close to a building etc... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Hi, I would be impressed if the game considers blocking terrain when it comes to calling in on-board arty. It makes sense. They are 75mm pack guns, located about 50m back from a line of tress. They are independent (not subordinate to any unit on the map), but they do have a higher HQ, but they are not on the map (yet?). I did have a thread open that was posted by a user who had reported findings of using on-board arty but I can't find it anymore. What is bizarre is that I have randomly selected other HQs to see if they can randomly place an arty marker anywhere. There was one HQ I found that seemed to have 2 random patches of ground in it's LOS where the mouse indicated an arty marker could be placed. Actually, these pack guns have to have a minimum indirect fire range but i can't seem to see it listed anywhere in game (unlike mortars). Edited March 20, 2015 by Lt Bull 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 It's been a while since this came up. Last time I tried it, the little guns' trajectory meant they were hitting trees on the crest of the hill they were firing from behind. It's possible that the detection of this kind of waste of ammo has been added to the fire control sequences, and your exception HQs are finding little patches of ground which won't require the fired shells to pass through any obstructions. Can other HQs that overlook the same areas not call these assets onto the same spots? Or are we talking exclusive fields of view on the ones that can apparently call 'em? Got a save you can put in a Dropbox folder? Got a screenshot (or series of 'em)? I think it's more likely to be to do with blocking terrain than ruptured CoC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehunter Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I had this happen. I moved the 60 mm mortars out from the edge of a building and the problem was resolved. Pretty awesome game mechanics where it models this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I had the same problem in the mission I'm currently fighting. The mortar men were too close to a building to be able to fire at my chosen target. So I just gave them another target to fire at. Whilst a team from the same platoon just a few yards away were allowed to take on the original target. It meant I didn't have to waste a turn moving any of them around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) double post Edited March 20, 2015 by Pak40 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Actually, these pack guns have to have a minimum indirect fire range but i can't seem to see it listed anywhere in game (unlike mortars). The minimum elevation of the gun is 5 degrees which in theory could be used as indirect fire over very low targets. So, I suppose the minimum indirect range = direct minimum range. The gun has a maximum elevation of 45 degrees which means that small ranges have to be fired at a low trajectory which may cause unintended collisions with trees, buildings, hills, etc.. I wonder if CM is accounting for this Lt Bull's case? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 It also used to be the case that field pieces like the Pack howitzer and the German lIG and sIG didn't have their variable charge modelled, unlike mortars, and were always assumed to be firing a full charge of propellant, making the minimum range rather long, even if their carriage allowed fire at greater than 45 degrees elevation. Don't know whether that's been added in yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) OK, I did some tests and it seems to be related to the trajectory and it being blocked. The only hope I have is to re-position these guns and hope they can fire at the targets I want them to. The problem is that I am not sure what the actual blocking terrain is. It would be good if you could drag a firing line to check to see if the artillery unit has an unobstructed trajectory to whatever spot on the map you care to target. KInd fo makes it hard to determine in any game whether to locate/deploy these units in a direct fire role or further back and hope they can function in an indirect fire role. For what it's worth, I always thought that at the typical map sizes for a CM battle that the range from any onboard arty (except mortars) would typically be inside the minimum range for indirect fire from the guns and was surprised when these units were included in CMx2 with these capabilities. Edited March 21, 2015 by Lt Bull 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 One neat thing you can do with them is an anti personnel mission. You might only be able to do it as a first turn set up bombardment, but I think it lets you shoot at places where the LOS would be blocked for a normal mission. The cannon aims well above the target and the shells blow up with a timed fuse somewhere in the area. Loks really neat its almost like modern airburst but the timing isn't that precise; seems really realistic and cool and a big increase in firepower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The current limitations on field pieces in indirect mode make them all but useless for that task. They're better off used in direct mode. By far, and they can sometimes be useful that way, rather than almost never being able to support indirect. This might change when/if the variable charge code gets subroutined into the algorithms for the light "trail" artillery (as opposed to mortars), but even then, if a given carriage's maximum elevation is 45degrees, close up obstructions are going to be a factor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Having a similar problem with German 75mm infantry gun. Trouble is that it can't seem to reposition it; it simply ignores Move orders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Having a similar problem with German 75mm infantry gun. Trouble is that it can't seem to reposition it; it simply ignores Move orders. What's the pack time for the gun and have you waited that long? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 What's the pack time for the gun and have you waited that long? The pack-up time is 1.6 mins. I have been trying to get it to move for around 10 turns. At the start of each new turn the move order has vanished. I repeat the move order but, rinse, repeat, no go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Are they unharrassed? I'm guessing they are, since they have terrain screening them from even their indirect trajectories... Have you tried just cancelling the "Deploy Weapon" state, rather than relying on the implicit packing-up inherent in giving a movement order? Not that you should have to do that, it just might inform the answer... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Are they unharrassed? I'm guessing they are, since they have terrain screening them from even their indirect trajectories... Have you tried just cancelling the "Deploy Weapon" state, rather than relying on the implicit packing-up inherent in giving a movement order? Not that you should have to do that, it just might inform the answer... Yes to that and I have tried just about everything else that I can think of. The gun appears to be deployed and not overly hemmed-in, IMO. Several HQ units can access it on their Arty tabs but when it comes to choosing a strike location, for any of the three options, it just keeps giving 'no LoS' It still will not respond to a standard move order so is pretty much stuck where it is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Could be a bug, but would need a save game file to be sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Vanir I have dropped you a PM and can provide you a link to the drop box folder full of saves... I will also let you have my Pwd so you can play both sides as I am sure you will be discrete... I have asked James to respond as well as he has spotted another issue that he can not explain... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 VanirThe new issue, in the same game, revolves around a platoon of infantry who, for some unaccountable reason, have the greyed out icons, normally associated with shaken/broken/panicked troops. They are only at cautious, are not under fire (nor have they been) and have been both in and out of command. This state has persisted for several turns and means that I can give them no commands.The infantry guns, on the other hand, are fully in command but simply do not respond to anything 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Vanir The new issue, in the same game, revolves around a platoon of infantry who, for some unaccountable reason, have the greyed out icons, normally associated with shaken/broken/panicked troops. They are only at cautious, are not under fire (nor have they been) and have been both in and out of command. This state has persisted for several turns and means that I can give them no commands. That sounds like the game "thinks" they're boarding a vehicle... If a unit has committed to getting on a vehicle, its icon greys out and you can't change their orders until they're all seated. I wonder, blindly, whether the gun thing might be because they're surrounded by some sort of impassable terrain. Though what that terrain might be, I don't know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 That sounds like the game "thinks" they're boarding a vehicle... If a unit has committed to getting on a vehicle, its icon greys out and you can't change their orders until they're all seated. I wonder, blindly, whether the gun thing might be because they're surrounded by some sort of impassable terrain. Though what that terrain might be, I don't know. Spot-on with the 'vehicle boarding' observation! They had indeed been given orders to move to some trucks which had not yet arrived at their location. The trucks duly arrived but the movement paths of the squads was a bit convoluted and they didn't move. So, if you are right and it certainly seems that way, they are permanently stuck as they can be given no new orders. So much for my mobile reserve! The guns are in a high walled courtyard from where 81mm mortars have been operating normally. There is a large opening onto a road, which they are near but they totally ignore the 'move' command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I have looked over the files. Holien, you mentioned in your email that you have had issues with units not moving through gaps in bocage. This is likely an unresolved bug that causes units to sometimes ignore small gaps in bocage when calculating the shortest movement path. You can mitigate this by placing a waypoint very near the opposite side of the gap. I will rattle BFCs cage on this again at some point. James... You are a soldier of misfortune. I see you have figured out why your infantry is frozen. I assumed a failed boarding was to blame since the trucks near them are also stuck in place. I don't know what caused it for sure, but I agree the "bit convoluted" path to the trucks is likely a factor (the nearest gaps through the bocage are over 100 meters in each direction). Definitely a bug. Your infantry guns actually can move, they just can't move where you need them to go. The problem is that they each have to pass through a gap about 1/2 of an action spot wide. There is a wall going down the middle of the action spot and a building on the other side. Visually it looks like they should fit but they don't. I have experimented with a Pak 38 and Pak 40 in the same area and they won't go through either. I don't know if this is a bug or not, but if it is intended behavior the tooltip should indicate that passage is not allowed, IMO. As others have surmised, the tall wall in front of your guns is blocking them from indirect fire. Actually, they can fire indirectly if the target is far enough away, but because they have to elevate so much to shoot over the wall their minimum range is about a kilometer. The good news is that there are ways to free your imprisoned guns and your frozen squads. The bad news is that it requires you to do things you won't enjoy doing, but the mitigation is preferable to the status quo. I will PM you detailed instructions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 If James can break a game he will do.. Great to have on a Test Team as he does things differently... OK Drive them trucks in front of me and I can fix that for you... As for the wall just let me know where it is and I can arrange for some Sherman help... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Vanir ref mymen and bocage, I managed to get them through had one squad walk away and the others went through with movement path closer. I will have to watch out for that as I had same issue with HMG team and in end gave up on gap and moved them long way around... Tad annoying and yes really does need fixing as new players will not always understand it. BTW do you have V1 or V2 engine stioll loaded? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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