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Tank Riders


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I know we all screamed for adding this feature to the game.

But some new command needs to be added to get the tank to stop and have the guys jump off once the bullets start flying. Maybe the hunt command needs some alteration so they jump for cover.

Either that or I need to learn to play better. :D

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I know we all screamed for adding this feature to the game.

But some new command needs to be added to get the tank to stop and have the guys jump off once the bullets start flying. Maybe the hunt command needs some alteration so they jump for cover.

Either that or I need to learn to play better. :D

I know squat about it, except that Jumping off is tied to the morale and (I think) experience levels of the troops. Quite a discussion about it in the test forum, where it was pointed out that without doing that, one bullet directed at them could cause them to drop off...not necessarily what you'd want in many situations....like most things CM, a trade off was necessary. Maybe some sort of option command like "jump off if 1/2/3 whatever" guys get hit. But I'm sure the programmers would pull their hair out about that!:D

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The riders should at least jump off when the tank is stationary and taking small arms, no?

No, apparently not, unless they have lower morale/experience.:). It would be nice if they would when stationary, but then again...how much fire? To me, taking fire shouldn't necessarily trigger a jump off, but taking one or two casualties should.

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This suggestion has a large element of 'be careful what you wish for' in it. You attempt to rush an enemy position under fire but find your tank riders had all dismounted in the middle of an open field instead of at the trenches gunning down the enemy at close range like they ought. Ouch! If you've got a stationary tank under fire with tank riders still on board perhaps that could be considered 'command error' ;)

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There is a workaround - give the tank a HUNT command, then give the riders a command to move off at the tank's terminus.

If the tank takes fire, it will stop and the riders will dismount and attempt to carry out their own movement order. If it's also HUNT, they'll stop there, if not, they'll advance.

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I don't know, if I'm a rider are on a halted AFV and my mates are getting picked off one by one I'm not going to sit there like a choir boy. I'm jumping, Stalin be damned. This TR thing will need a couple of patches to arrive at a convincing state (as predicted).

Also, as a side note, the flame tanks could use a dedicated 'Flame' target command- one that functions without discharging HE. And that imperils the friendlies as well.

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SOP was to dismount as soon as they took any substantial fire.

Not true as a rule for Soviets. Soviet tank riders were specifically forbidden to dismount unless ordered to do so. Yes, there are very few places to hide from bullets on the back of a tank, but there are also very few places to hide from the NKVD. :eek:

Now, it may be that in some tactical contexts the Platoon or Squad leaders would issue the order to dismount at the first sign of incoming. But in other situations the tank riders were expected to hold tight and stay on the tank through the danger zone, not dismounting until the designated drop-off point. Note that in some situations it actually would be safer to stay on the tank -- dropping off of the ride in the middle of an open field swept by mortar and MG fire would be a very bad thing. If the incoming fire isn't too extreme, it may well be better to stay on board until the tank reaches the designated drop-off point, where presumably there is some cover.

This is the essential challenge of modeling dismount behavior for tank riders in the game; it's very context dependent. Right now, the game's default "auto dismount" behavior weights toward a Soviet tankodesantniki assault-type situation, as this is probably going to be the most common use of tank riders in the game. As a player you need to be aware of this and use tank riders appropriately. If there is a risk of incoming fire and you *don't* want them to stay on if they get shot at, then generally speaking you shouldn't put them up there in the first place.

Baneman's HUNT trick is a good workaround if you want the tank to stop and the riders to jump off at the first incoming fire. One note: a tank crew will only stop their vehicle while executing a HUNT order if THEY perceive incoming fire, not when the RIDERS perceive incoming fire. And buttoned tanks don't always perceive light incoming small arms fire; they will often keep right on HUNTing if just a few rifle shots hit the armor. So if you want be sure the tank will stop and the riders will get off at the first rifle shot, you must issue both the tank and the riders hunt orders, AND the TC must be unbuttoned so he will immediately recognize the incoming fire.

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Oh, that's a thought. Perhaps tank riding in CMBN should be handled differently. Tank riders in the west weren't shock troops, they were just G.I.s catching a ride. A very different state of affairs.

I think this is a good point. I don't know if nationality-based SOPs like this are possible, but assuming they are, I think you can make the argument that the Brits, Americans and probably even Germans should be much more likely to jump off a tank at the first incoming bullet.

Assuming this kind of differentiation is possible, one tricky aspect to consider is that jumping off a vehicle moving at anything faster than a walking speed, and especially a moving tracked vehicle, is very dangerous. In CMRT, tanks with passengers are limited to a slower top speed to reflect the fact that they need to be careful not to move too fast and bounce the passengers off when they hit a bump, but they still move at a fair clip, probably too fast to easily dismount.

So there is a question of what to do when the passengers want to get off, but the tank is moving too fast to safely do so... do they risk breaking an ankle on the dismount, or brave the bullets and try to stay on the tank? Hard to say what the behavior should be here.

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There is a workaround - give the tank a HUNT command, then give the riders a command to move off at the tank's terminus.

If the tank takes fire, it will stop and the riders will dismount and attempt to carry out their own movement order. If it's also HUNT, they'll stop there, if not, they'll advance.

Sounds like a good work around. I'll give it a try.

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There is a workaround - give the tank a HUNT command, then give the riders a command to move off at the tank's terminus.

If the tank takes fire, it will stop and the riders will dismount and attempt to carry out their own movement order. If it's also HUNT, they'll stop there, if not, they'll advance.

I'll have to test this. Sounds like it will work though, good thinking!

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I notice that when you play wego at the start of the turn, you want the riders to leave the tank. So you issue a move command to the riders and you pause the tank for 30 or 45 seconds (at the start of the turn) and then ask the tank to move for the remaining portion of the turn. The riders stay on the tank and will not dismount until the tank moves then stops after the initial pause command. This was a case when none of the units were underfire. Did this also for HQ platoon. All the units had arrived to the battle on that turn. This occurred in tutorial battle 3.

Other items that I have seen.

Noticed this in the manual and when you were playing on Saturday. Dont know if there is a reason for it. Sometimes the # of crew in the weapons box (box 1 on page 32) and the crew picture (box 2) do not match. An easy way to explain is if you look at page 37 of the cmrt manual. For the mortar, it shows 4 guns for 4 members but in the picture it has 5 bubbles for five members of the crew. I see this in t-34 85 mm in the tutorial campaign battle 3. No radio operator is displayed.

Also do you explain in the manual how AA guns can target planes? So can a user issue a fire command on a plane? Do not know if this is explained in the manual.

Also can mortars now be fired from within a halftrack? I dont think it can. No note in the manual like in the previous ones.

Pak 50mm onn page 108 shows ammo for 150mm weapon.

Lastly, I think that if you preorder the game you should not release the game to the public (non pre-orderers) for at least 24 hours after the preorders receive the email.

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Found out in my case if dismount order for riders then issue move command for riders with a pause in the command for the tank for 20 seconds and then have tank move it will work. So that is how you can move riders off a tank and then move the tank in the same turn when one plays wego. Should fix page 42 in the RT manual.

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I don't think any interface changes are coming for tank riders--no "IF this THEN dismount" orders.

But I wonder if it might be possible to connect tank rider behavior to the speed of the tank's movement. Riders on a Fast/Quick/Move tank would be expected to hold on to the end waypoint, while riders on a Slow/Hunt tank would be expected to jump off and deploy under any significant fire. The rule would be, If you really want your riders to stay aboard under fire, speed up.

I'm sure this wouldn't fit every situation, but it seems intuitive enough for most. I just don't know if units in CM can take contextual cues from other units this way.

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Other items that I have seen.

Noticed this in the manual and when you were playing on Saturday. Dont know if there is a reason for it. Sometimes the # of crew in the weapons box (box 1 on page 32) and the crew picture (box 2) do not match. An easy way to explain is if you look at page 37 of the cmrt manual. For the mortar, it shows 4 guns for 4 members but in the picture it has 5 bubbles for five members of the crew. I see this in t-34 85 mm in the tutorial campaign battle 3. No radio operator is displayed.

I wouldn't worry about this. The image was probably mocked up for the manual before all the graphics were in place. In the game, you'll probably see that the "blank" line in a mortar crew isn't blank--it will show a mortar shell to indicate that that's the gunner.

Also do you explain in the manual how AA guns can target planes? So can a user issue a fire command on a plane? Do not know if this is explained in the manual.

Aircraft are somewhat abstracted in CM. You see their incoming fire raining from the sky, but you never see a plane itself. AA fire will be automatic; you'll never be able to target a plane manually because planes are never selectable as visible targets.

Also can mortars now be fired from within a halftrack? I dont think it can. No note in the manual like in the previous ones.

I dunno. Test it and see?

Pak 50mm onn page 108 shows ammo for 150mm weapon.

That 150mm HEAT shell is actually a big ugly item that fits on the end of the barrel, much like a rifle grenade. It really is 150mm. You'll notice they only have one of them.

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Like Baneman's idea! After a few scenarios I'm definitely going to have to work on Tank rider infantry tactics. Couple of oddities I've noticed.

- Tanks running over anti-personnel mines. Riders get pinned and jump off... into the mine field. Now I'm not in the military I'll admit, but when you look down and see mines exploding under the 60 ton beast you're rising on, probably not the smartest thing to jump off and experience it first hand. :D (Inf weren't under fire themselves).

- As a defender, didn't realise my own infantry would open fire at the tank riders and ignore the fact they're exposing themselves to an 85mm gun on tracks at the same time. Cover arc's are a must, but thought the defending infantry would be more concerned about the tank before opening fire automatically. Possibly a different reaction could be implemented? Green troops likely to do something stupid like this, regular and above more likely to hold fire? Can be annoying in WeGo.

Still awesome fun so far. ;)

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- Tanks running over anti-personnel mines. Riders get pinned and jump off... into the mine field. Now I'm not in the military I'll admit, but when you look down and see mines exploding under the 60 ton beast you're rising on, probably not the smartest thing to jump off and experience it first hand. :D (Inf weren't under fire themselves).

This is a special situation that may need to be looked at. Not sure if the game engine is able to make this kind of distinction, but you have a point.

- As a defender, didn't realise my own infantry would open fire at the tank riders and ignore the fact they're exposing themselves to an 85mm gun on tracks at the same time. Cover arc's are a must, but thought the defending infantry would be more concerned about the tank before opening fire automatically. Possibly a different reaction could be implemented? Green troops likely to do something stupid like this, regular and above more likely to hold fire? Can be annoying in WeGo.

In general, the chance to target your opponent's infantry while they're mounted on a tank is a PRIME opportunity, and you want your infantry to take the shot; infantry sitting on the back of a tank is highly exposed and even long range small arms fire has a very good chance of causing casualties.

There may be specific situations where you don't want your infantry to shoot at tank rider, but this is what cover arcs are for. I don't think it would be a good idea to make the default behavior to not shoot, even at long range.

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There may be specific situations where you don't want your infantry to shoot at tank rider, but this is what cover arcs are for. I don't think it would be a good idea to make the default behavior to not shoot, even at long range.

Which is why there should never be penalty for the Russian side for incurring x% casualties in any scenario. A nation that fosters a doctrine as spendthrift in human lives as tank desant clearly has its own priorities.

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In general, the chance to target your opponent's infantry while they're mounted on a tank is a PRIME opportunity, and you want your infantry to take the shot; infantry sitting on the back of a tank is highly exposed and even long range small arms fire has a very good chance of causing casualties.

Oh I agree, just didn't expect it. Problem is in WeGo tanks could pop up out of no where and you've got to wait the rest of the minute to tell your troops to hold fire. Could be too late then.

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