Weird tank behaviour.

[Vencini]

I'm playing a PBEM Campaing. One of my Panzer IVH (veteran) spots an enemy tank at less of 1500 meters. Red fire order. Ok let's see the duel next turn. The surprise came when I saw the turn...

http://vimeo.com/88776181

I'm a magnet of this kind of situations? How I can avoid this kind of things? I'm confused I would like to know why things like this happens to avoid the situation again.

Please, give me some advice or help... I feel stupid...

Thanks and regards.

[womble]

First off, the colour of your targeting line once it's assigned indicates only that you're firing "Target" rather than "Target Light" (yellow). The "quality" of your spot is indicated before you click the "Target" order onto the spotted target: Blue says all the eyes in the unit (or all the important ones at least) can see it; Grey indicates that only some of the eyes in the unit can.

My interpretation of the video is that your gunner can see the target when the turret is pointing forward, but loses sight of it when the turret rotates to bear, so the turret rotates back to "neutral". Looking at the "sight picture" of the target, it is largely obscured, and it's edge conditions like that which produce "hunting" behaviour in automated systems.

How to avoid it? Don't get bounced in the open by tanks behind cover... Considering the setup, it probably should have resulted in your PzIV getting hosed, so all that's odd is the turret hunting back and forth. Seriously, though, the geometry of that shot looks like it would be less uncertain if you were a bit further back. Try and stay away from "edge condition" shots; sometimes they look like they give you an advantage, which is why we gamers seek them out, but you end up dead when they don't come off. Pay attention to the target line colour before you click it, though in this case it's probably grey because the driver or radio man can't see the target, so it's not the best indication. If you're caught in the open by another tank that can kill you, pop smoke and call for help or run away rather than trying to duke it out with a better-armoured foe in better cover.

[Fizou]

That is weird.. I have never seen this behaviour before. Hope a beta tester will check on it.

[Freyberg]

That is strange behaviour. I've had a tank do that for several seconds when it didn't have a good spot, but never like that...

[Vencini]

First of all thanks for the answer Womble.

I gave the tank an armor cover arc. The tank spoted an enemy tank. Some one inside cries "Ein Panzer!" and tank stops. The turn ends. I have the enemy tank icon.

You were correct. The line was grey,not blue. I thought It was possible to fire with grey line. It seems my tank is "hulldown" position so I thought it was the best situation for me...

So...It's better to not fire with a tank with a grey line?I'm still insecure and confused about how the tank combat works

Anyway, I can't do anything with this kind of situation "tank saying NO"I think I have the worst luck ever playing this game...

What is the gold / million dollar rule in tank combat?

Thanks and best regards

[A Canadian Cat]

I gave the tank an armor cover arc. The tank spoted an enemy tank. Some one inside cries "Ein Panzer!" and tank stops. The turn ends. I have the enemy tank icon.

You were correct. The line was grey,not blue. I thought It was possible to fire with grey line.

It is possible to fire with a grey line. The grey line is telling you that the main gun does not have LOF to the target. So, while I don't mind firing at infantry when my tank has a grey line, it is a bad idea to engage an enemy tank when you only have a grey line.

It seems my tank is "hulldown" position so I thought it was the best situation for me...

Being hull down *is* good for you - you have that right. In this case not have a solid blue line to the target meant that your tank would just be shot at - and eventually hit.

So...It's better to not fire with a tank with a grey line?I'm still insecure and confused about how the tank combat works

IMHO correct. If your tank only has a grey LOF to the enemy tank, it is time to maneuver because, as you saw, sometimes the enemy can shoot you. I agree with @womble this is an edge case and you don't want to be on the edge.

What is the gold / million dollar rule in tank combat?

Your hull down position was pretty good but the enemy tank's cover was even better. If I had a blue target line I would have stayed to duke it out but with a grey line: time for some careful movement to break contact. Unless there is an obvious move that would allow for a blue target line. From your video and picture it does not look like that would be possible so I would have elected to break contact.

[Pak40]

Grey lines mean that only SOME of the crew or squad have LOS to the target. CM doesn't go into detail of which crew members have or don't have LOS but if your gunner doesn't have LOS to the target then he wont pull the trigger.

Womble, good explanation. I never considered the fact that just turning the tank or turret can result in different LOS results. It just goes to show how realistic the spotting is in CMx2 engine and how it's hard for people to understand these weird LOS issues even if they're totally valid and realistic.

[Vanir Ausf B]

AFAIK if the gunner does not have LOS, the target line will say LOS blocked, NOT a grey line. A grey line on a hull down tank simply means the driver and radio operator have no LOS. That is to be expected on a fully hull down tank. The main gun and coax MG should be able to fire. Visually, there does not appear to be anything obstructing it from doing so. I think this is a bug.

[agusto]

AFAIK if the gunner does not have LOS, the target line will say LOS blocked, NOT a grey line. A grey line on a hull down tank simply means the driver and radio operator have no LOS. That is to be expected on a fully hull down tank. The main gun and coax MG should be able to fire. Visually, there does not appear to be anything obstructing it from doing so. I think this is a bug.

Agreed, i often had my tanks sucessfully engage a target with a grey target line.

[Skwabie]

Visually, there does not appear to be anything obstructing it from doing so. I think this is a bug.

Same, looking at the HD screenie the OP posted.

[Vencini]

I'm one of those "lurking" guys you speak here. I read with lot of interest all your post, AAR, blogs, treads: JansonC,Bill Hardemberg, VanisAuf, Womble,etc.

I learn History, I train my English, It makes me laugh sometimes...This is one of my favourites websites.

I have the feeling,more I learn, more I realize I don't know nothing.

With tank combat. First of all, I tried to approach to the enemy giving orders "manually". But, sometimes I went too far, some times I get too short. COnclusion I get blow up.

Back to read and consulting treads.

Ok I'll let the computer do the work, but then things like this happens.

Thanks for all your responses. English is not my native language. Please, don't use difficult words or phrases. I'm still confused.

How the thing about tanks works?

It embarrasses me to ask for this,but could you Mr. Billhanderberg (if you read that) explain how the tanks works in your blog?

Could some one explain it with images or graphics?

I'm lost.

Thanks for your responses. Sorry for my English.

PD: If you want more images or angles ,ask for it. I just want to understand how the thing works...

I'm not trolling. I just want to understand why this happens. The things I have to do and not to do.

[womble]

Thanks for the additional pictures, Vencini, they help make the situation clearer.

One small thing about the "hull down" position: it looks to me like the inability of the sherman to see the hull of your tank (which is what "hull down" means) is mostly because of the plants in the field in front of your tank. This will mean that, the Sherman will be aiming at your tank's turret (rather than at the visual centre of the whole silhouette), any rounds that are a bit short will still be able to hit your hull, so the protection offered is less than if you had a whole hill between the gun and your armour.

I don't know why rotating the turret should deprive your gunner of his sighting, or even whether that's truly what's going on; it's just a hypothesis that has a chance of explaining what's going on.

I concur with Vanir, Agusto and Pak40 that Ian is misinterpreting the grey line. But a grey line could mean that one of the eyes that can't see the target is the gunner, so I would fret about the chance I'd not be able to return fire. I can't remember seeing Vanir's "Line of sight blocked" message, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And as to "how to stop this happening again"... as a general question, that's quite a biggie. The first step is to not have your armour be the ones actually moving about to find the enemy armour. Infantry eyes are better, there are more of them, and they are stealthier. Once you have a position for the enemy, you can bring your armour to bear, preferably in superior numbers, and with minimal exposure to return fire. "Hunt" movement commands can be useful for that last little leg of movement that brings your tank out of being completely hidden into its firing position. Or use Slow. Either way, short steps of movement with 10s pauses (spotting is checked every 7s or so...) will give you the best chance of spotting the enemy before he spots you. Setting a Cover Armour Arc with its centre axis pointing at the location of the anticipated target will have a turreted tank's gun pointing nearly at the target when it is spotted, reducing engagement time. But all this requires that you know where the enemy is, so: recon, recon, recon.

[Michael Emrys]

I have the feeling,more I learn, more I realize I don't know nothing.

Welcome to the club! You have taken the first step toward wisdom. If you will permit me to offer some advice, be patient...with the game, with us, but most of all with yourself. This game just might have something to teach you about yourself.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

I concur with Vanir, Agusto and Pak40 that Ian is misinterpreting the grey line. But a grey line could mean that one of the eyes that can't see the target is the gunner, so I would fret about the chance I'd not be able to return fire. I can't remember seeing Vanir's "Line of sight blocked" message, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I was just referring to the "no line of sight" message but used inexact syntax.

I don't know this for sure, but I suspect that AFVs function similar to other crew-served weapons such as AT guns and machine guns in that it is not possible to target something the gunner has no LOS to.

[A Canadian Cat]

I concur with Vanir, Agusto and Pak40 that Ian is misinterpreting the grey line. But a grey line could mean that one of the eyes that can't see the target is the gunner, so I would fret about the chance I'd not be able to return fire. I can't remember seeing Vanir's "Line of sight blocked" message, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Actually I think I *do* have it right. I remember reading this (and manged to find it again thanks to Google):

To clear something up. BLUE line does not mean everybody in the unit can see that particular point. As was pointed out, the loader in a tank isn't even looking in the direction the gun is facing. What means is the unit is able to effectively take that space under fire. If a key part of the unit, such as the gunner, can't see that spot then the line goes GRAY.

Pretty simple, pretty straight forward.

The thread it comes form is long and not as pleasant as this. There is also this thread which also discusses the grey targeting line: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106668

And as to "how to stop this happening again"... as a general question, that's quite a biggie. The first step is to not have your armour be the ones actually moving about to find the enemy armour. Infantry eyes are better, there are more of them, and they are stealthier. Once you have a position for the enemy, you can bring your armour to bear, preferably in superior numbers, and with minimal exposure to return fire. "Hunt" movement commands can be useful for that last little leg of movement that brings your tank out of being completely hidden into its firing position. Or use Slow. Either way, short steps of movement with 10s pauses (spotting is checked every 7s or so...) will give you the best chance of spotting the enemy before he spots you.

Excellent advice. Especially regarding using infantry to find the enemy. They are awesome at hearing the enemy tanks. They will hear tank movement long before any tank crew. This means you get a feel for where to go look.

Setting a Cover Armour Arc with its centre axis pointing at the location of the anticipated target will have a turreted tank's gun pointing nearly at the target when it is spotted, reducing engagement time.

Now this part I disagree with. I do sometimes use a cover armour arc to direct turrets but extremely rarely. What I prefer to do is make the last leg of movement ensure that the tank is pointing in the direction I want. So that as they move to their firing position they are already pointing the way they should. The trouble with using cover arcs for this situation is that if a surprise shows up off to one side you will be sad because your tank will ignore it.

But all this requires that you know where the enemy is, so: recon, recon, recon.

Back to agreeing with @womble again

[Vencini]

Thanks for all your reponses,in special the one of Ian.Leslie with links to treads to read. I'll read them with care...

Reading this forums is very important to learn to play. I know, after lot of reading,how to act in theory. Use the infantry first to know enemy position, secondly use the tanks (in C2 with infantry if possible). Use armor cover arcs. How to place the hull of the tank with the last movement, shoot and scout,etc....

But, I think i'm just an unlucky person (i'm "jinxed"?). The theory is OK, but when I try to put it in practice during the game I get my ass kicked...

Well, let's continue playing!

PD: I think my Panzer crew,was victim of an act of sabotage. Americans interfered their radio communications, and played some american rock&roll music...

Best regards

[Vanir Ausf B]

Actually I think I *do* have it right. I remember reading this (and manged to find it again thanks to Google):

Turret down tanks (i.e. the commander has LOS but the gunner does not) do not get a grey line.

[Vet 0369]

But, I think i'm just an unlucky person (i'm "jinxed"?). The theory is OK, but when I try to put it in practice during the game I get my ass kicked.

Don't be ashamed by getting your butt kicked it takes a good while to learn how to use your assets. I spent years as a "small unit leader, infantry" (rifle platoon sergeant and weapons platoon sergeant) in the USMC and still have my butt handed to me on a regular basis because I had little experience working with armor. Remember, armor is there to SUPPORT infantry. Use your grunts as a screen for your armor and your armor will survive longer to reduce the strong points that your infantry has to take.

My regular H2H opponent was shocked in CMBB - The Library - when I sent my infantry through the buildings on both sides of the road my armor was going to be traveling. I took out all of his tank hunter teams. He learned from that one.

Take your time and enjoy the game. Learn from your mistakes and don't make the same one again. There are enough other mistakes you can make that you don't need to make the same ones again.

[A Canadian Cat]

Take your time and enjoy the game. Learn from your mistakes and don't make the same one again. There are enough other mistakes you can make that you don't need to make the same ones again.

Indeed. And when you get that tank victory don't forget to stop for a moment to celebrate. Half the time I think our biggest problem is we fuss for hours about each time something bad happens to our men and just move on after something good happens. Then when we add up the bad moments and the good moments we don't get an accurate count.

For example here is when something went really well for me:

Not so well for my opponent. This is a really good demonstration of how important infantry is even though they do not play much of a direct role in the video it would not have been possible without them. My Royal Tiger Platoon was waiting on the back side of a hill for their infantry support to arrive before doing a little recon and then going over the top. They happily sat there for many minutes. Once the infantry arrived and unloaded the forest and field to their right lit up like a Christmas tree with enemy armour sound contacts. Wow, my opponent did not bring any infantry so he did not hear my tanks coming. Total annihilation of his flanking force followed. Of course having Royal Tigers helped But even the uber tanks had no clue where the enemy was until the infantry showed them the way.