Fort Bourtange, Netherlands

[agusto]

That would make for a cool CMBN:MG scenario, wouldnt it?

Satelite picture:

http://geoeyemediaportal.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/gallery/manmade/structures/hires/bourtange_netherlands.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bourtange

Maybe i am going to try and make it myself. If not, maybe someone else gets inspired by this thread.

[Aragorn2002]

Well, yes, but it is in the North of the Netherlands, in the provence of Groningen. Not in the MG area. I've been there once, very nice.

[baron Jacquinot]

I think Soviet Army will win battle on this map with one big vacuum bomb, which will be dropped in center of island ;-)))))))))

[agusto]

Nontheless the new buildings were going to get (for example the windmills*) and the ditch feature (could be used for making the earth walls around the fort*) would make this a possible candidate for a dedicated MG-module battle. Doesnt really matter to me weather or not it actuually is within the area where MG took place. I am not asking for this battle to be placed on the MG module CD by BFC (in wich case it would actually have to be in the MG area), i just think it would make for a cool user generated scenario.

*

*

[agusto]

I think Soviet Army will win battle on this map with one big vacuum bomb, which will be dropped in center of island ;-)))))))))

I doubt that those were available at the time. By the way: Soviets? In the Netherlands during WW2? Have you been smoking weed again .

[Broadsword56]

FYI - there was an old fort similar to this that was in the MG area: Hof van Holland, across the river from Nijmegen.

[agusto]

FYI - there was an old fort similar to this that was in the MG area: Hof van Holland, across the river from Nijmegen.

Interssting, thanks. I did a bit of ad-hoc research into the matter and appearently there even is an histroical engagement that took place around teh fort. Appearently the fort was conquered during the battle of Nimjegen. Terrain looks intersting as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Doornenburg_Rijksmonoment_8943_Fort_Pannerden_%284%29.JPG

http://www.grotescheur.nl/wp6/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/nl-for-pannerden0.jpg

[mjkerner]

Interssting, thanks. I did a bit of ad-hoc research into the matter and appearently there even is an histroical engagement that took place around teh fort. Appearently the fort was conquered during the battle of Nimjegen. Terrain looks intersting as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Doornenburg_Rijksmonoment_8943_Fort_Pannerden_%284%29.JPG

http://www.grotescheur.nl/wp6/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/nl-for-pannerden0.jpg

Covered very well in Nordyke's books on the 82nd AB.

[Sublime]

Vacuum bomb Baron? Wtf is a vacuum bomb?

[agusto]

Vacuum bomb Baron? Wtf is a vacuum bomb?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon

Quote from Wikipedia:

"The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique–and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.... If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as most chemical agents."

[baron Jacquinot]

I doubt that those were available at the time. By the way: Soviets? In the Netherlands during WW2? Have you been smoking weed again .

Oh realy no Soviets?! I saw fort in star form and I think only Soviets can build that! ;-)))))))

[baron Jacquinot]

In reality I think is very hard to defend this star island, massive artillery barrage destroy quickly all troops of defenders.

Maybe it will be good map for HistWar Les Grognards or other Napoleonic era game.

[ZPB II]

I agree with baron, that does not look like a good defensive position at all. The buildings look no more resilient to HE than normal ones and if the defenders hide into tunnels or somesuch, just start a big fire outside the entrance...

So maybe the scenario should be something out of the Dirty Dozen or Commando instead of a normal attack/defend.

[Sublime]

Ah a FAE. I'd never heard the term vacuum bomb used... Yes I imagine it would be very unpleasant. I disagree about defending the island. Of course i can think of better positions, and as a fort yes it would be sub-par. Generally though fortifications aren't that great in modern warfare. With trench lines, and tunnels, etc, a hard fight could be had for it. The channeling factor of water - plus foliage, buildings etc would give attackers problems. Notice the entrances to the 'star' proper are through a couple of small islands. Yes, defended by smart men it would be a bit%h to take. Much more so if you had different elevations throughout the star, even man made piles of rubble and earth to block LoS and allow defenders movement.

[Wicky]

Hit it with WP

[warrenpeace]

Interestingly, I once had dinner inside that fort. I was in Nijmegen for a scientific meeting and the gala dinner was held inside the fort. Had an nice time with a female doctor from Sweden, but that would not be an appropriate story for this group .

[Sublime]

try me. So given your personal experience on the ground, what are your thoughts on the difficulty, or lack thereof, of attacking the fort with say ww2/and or modern day weaponry? Barring of course the obvious nuke, 'vacuum bomb', and other gigantic explosives or WMDs.

[agusto]

Ah a FAE. I'd never heard the term vacuum bomb used... Yes I imagine it would be very unpleasant. I disagree about defending the island. Of course i can think of better positions, and as a fort yes it would be sub-par. Generally though fortifications aren't that great in modern warfare. With trench lines, and tunnels, etc, a hard fight could be had for it. The channeling factor of water - plus foliage, buildings etc would give attackers problems. Notice the entrances to the 'star' proper are through a couple of small islands. Yes, defended by smart men it would be a bit%h to take. Much more so if you had different elevations throughout the star, even man made piles of rubble and earth to block LoS and allow defenders movement.

Well i think that, although the fort itself, on its own, may not be the best defensive position, i am sure that the defending germans would have integrated it into their defensive net if the nearby town had been attacked by the allies. One of the advantages of the fort is that what is inside is litterally invulnerable to direct fire - the surounding earth walls are several meters thick.

[baron Jacquinot]

I don't see any reasons to defend this island, just few MG nests and that's all?

[agusto]

I don't see any reasons to defend this island, just few MG nests and that's all?

1) The Fort is kind of a local high ground. The surounding earth walls are several meters above the ground and the sourrounding countryside is completly flat. Without the trees (wich possibly werent there in 1944, who knows? I couldnt find any evidence that they were there back then, so if i made a scenario i could simply not place them there*), the gun positions on the earth wall would give a defender great LOS on the surrounding area.

2) It is adjunct to a village wich might be defended. Integreating above mentioned local high ground into the defensive positions around the village would be a reasonable idea, especially since said high ground offers LOS onto the avenues of approach that lead towards the village.

3) Hitler ordered the Wehrmacht not to retreat. They defended many strategically worthless villages, towns, positions throught the war.

*What the fort would look like without the trees:

[baron Jacquinot]

Nice photo, good place to buy house and live there, and that van Gogh style colors, wunderbar! People in Netherlands have good style!

I think position is very open and predicted, not protected by any bunkers, easy target to allied bombers and artillery.

[baron Jacquinot]

[agusto]

I think position is (...) predicted (...), easy target to allied bombers and artillery.

Those are general problems that all static defense operations face, especially in that area. The Netherlands are an open and flat country.

Basically i would say that if you dont like the idea of a scenario set in the area around the fort, dont play it. I think it is an interesting man-made structre that would be worth beeing part of a larger battle.

[Bertram]

I hate to disappoint you, but Bourtange didn't look like that in 1945.... it is extensively restored in the second half of the 20st century.

Lands around are flat now, but when it was build, it was situated across a road through peat moors, one of the few connections between Germany and the Netherlands in the north (Coevorden, and Oudeschans being the others). On the dutch side the moors were mostly drained during the 1930's (crisis work projects).

[LongLeftFlank]

Wait, I want to hear more about the hot Swedish doctor: Tell me more about 'Operation Granite'", she murmured, her breast heaving as she sprawled against the 50 cm bombard (a 1740 coronation gift from the Duke of Brabant).