ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[Hister]

Ha ha ha, that might be it yes!

[GreenAsJade]

Well, whatever it is, it's not a whole lot of goodness for me the defender. I know for sure he's out there - there's no way his whole attack would have stalled this way - but I can't see him much at all. I said in an earlier post that I need to 'get eyes forwards', but actually I can't afford that luxury, because every pair of eyes is connected to a body and a gun that are needed for the final defence. So I have to hang tight...

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 19, 0:52-0:51

Well, my ATG survived one turn of shooting without coming under return fire.

The shots were:

1 miss, over the Elefant's head

3 direct hits, each right on the mantle. Talk about consistent shooting!

Note how that cunning Big Bad Bil had his soft rear flanks covered by the tree, too!

Towards the end of the turn the tank's AI started rotating it towards the ATG, so I will keep firing this turn - either the tank will return fire or run away.

[Michael Emrys]

3 direct hits, each right on the mantle. Talk about consistent shooting!

Ah, the miracle of boresighting!

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

The rest of the movie was really quite uneventful.

My Right Tit Sniper is under fire from up on the Tit. They didn't get a shot off at KW-man... they're just cowering in the grass.

KW-man has done a runner to the east, running away from the incoming spotting rounds...

(hi-res uploaded)

Some smoke shells were fired, I think by Bil's backline PzIVHs, into Tame. I guess they are smoking the location where my M10 was a couple of turns ago. I don't quite know why they didn't shoot at it if they saw it ... but maybe they were just out of LOS and something else spotted it. It has since moved, as you can see ... it wants to get a look at the HTs that have parked on the ridge west of Right Tit.

This smoke is interesting actually. From where it was, the place that the M10 could see was my right field - I was interdicting the HTs that never came over that way.

Since Bil is blocking this line of sight (or trying to ... the wind is really too much for smoke use), it implies that there's an attack coming on the far right flank - or he's faking a punch. It seems he doesn't really need to do any faking, since I can't see what he's up to anyhow!

So this doesn't change the "hang tight" orders for now, though the guys on Hill 109 are getting nervous.

Bil is continuing to fling shells at the bunker. This says "hah hah I have so many tanks and shells that I don't have to conserve them, and this Hill 130 position for my JgPz is unassailable". Both true, I'm sure!

GaJ

[tarzan]

"Bil is continuing to fling shells at the bunker"

Why not scram-say the men out of the bunker-hay? I would be long gone...

[dieseltaylor]

Do you keep track of the shells fired? I would like to know when the Brummbar has to be careful etc. I think it is a great shame the loadouts are not varied. It is surprisingly easy to forget to take a tank of bombardment .....

ANyway this is getting quite exciting

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Now you know why the upgrade to Elefant included that big exterior mantlet. Will you get some gun damage love? Three hits in such a small area (nice shooting!) should give you a chance at franging something, but the game gods are notoriously fickle. Nice screen shot!

dieseltaylor,

Max load for the beast in question is 38 rounds. Break out your Veeder-Root hand counter! Properly speaking, it's not all HE, either. There's some Smoke and a few HEAT as well.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

"Bil is continuing to fling shells at the bunker"

Why not scram-say the men out of the bunker-hay? I would be long gone...

I toyed with the same idea myself. There are some pros and cons.

The biggest con is that the guys themselves are quite likely to get killed by shrapnel as they exit. In real life you would wait till a shell hit, then run while he's reloading. That is a pretty hard thing to time in CM.

And for what purpose would this risk be taken? As far as I know, the sure way to kill a bunker with a tank is a firing slot penetration. I'm not sure if the previous screenie I posted was clear (due to a black line running the whole way around the bunker at firing slot level), but the firing slot is at a worse-than-45-degrees angle away from the line to the JgPz. My figuring is that this gives Bil a pretty bad chance of hitting it. The guys inside the bunker are pretty comfortable - their alertness level rises when an HE shell hits, but when AP is pinging off the side, they relax. My guess is that the odds of breaking through the concrete are really pretty bad too.

I haven't tested this - I could set up a bunker on a map and keep firing a tank at it's side, but there's so little to lose that it's not worth the effort: there are only 4 mortar bearers in there.

Further, I suspect that due to the modelling of the bunker as an AFV, if/when Bil does crack it, then it will be "destroyed", so it can't be remanned. So abandonning the bunker and saving the men won't save the asset. (In reality, I would think that after a tank gets a firing slot hit and kills everyone inside, the next team could be sent in to man the weapon!!)

So with little to loose, and a chance of dieing in the attempt, it doesn't seem like worth the risking it!

If/when Bil repositions to improve the sight line to the firing slot, then I imagine they'll skedadle. Certainly, if I were in the reverse position, and had decided to shell the bunker, I'd be trying to get a line where the firing slot is on the line from the tank to the centre of the bunker - IE better than 45 degrees presentation.

GaJ

[Michael Emrys]

Certainly, if I were in the reverse position, and had decided to shell the bunker, I'd be trying to get a line where the firing slot is on the line from the tank to the centre of the bunker - IE better than 45 degrees presentation.

I am puzzled as to why Bil continues to spend ammo on this target. Seems to me that the presumption would be, even without seeing your whole lineup, that there would have to be more productive targets around, even if he doesn't see them yet.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 20, 0:51-0:50

I only have a brief moment to report in that Bil has begun half serious looking left hook (up my right flank towards Hill 109) with at least two HTs.

My forward right-centre scout spotted them.

My M10 who relocated in Tame was disappointed to find that there was nothing to see on the right side of the ridge - Bil's centre-right ridge hugging HTs really have stopped, short of the M10's view, and still no sign of inf accompanying them. So he's going to move once again, this time to get a better view of the area where the HTs are approaching.

I've sent the turn back to Bil, who's going on vacation, in case he can get another turn in before he goes.

More details later, sleep time now for me.

GaJ

[hoolaman]

Italy as a geographical area has all sorts of grass type, from very lush to semi arid. Grass in predominantly farming area around immidiate vicinity of settlements would not be left unattended. It would be either grazed by cattle or cut by farmers for hay. I don't know when peasants from that particular front area were deported away - the longer they would be away the longer the grass but it also depends on the time of the year fighting took place. Looking at old photos from the area I'm a bit surprised lush tall grass has been chosen by Bil - maybe just because of practical gaming results and not for flora correctness.

I'm a bit disappointed by the map as a historical recreation. Ok for an "inspired by".

Go down there in google street view and it doesn't look much like this. The slopes seem a lot steeper and a bit rocky, with some terracing, to the extent you might have trouble operating tanks on them. The centre road is on a very sharp spine for a lot of its length. Italy also tends more to shrubs than full sized trees, but the CMBN palette isn't too strong on shrubs. In reality I think this would be terrain that it would be very easy for men to hide in, but very difficult for tanks to hide or manouvre in.

[GreenAsJade]

I think you should take it easy on the "Disappointed by".

You're looking at an AAR of a beta game on a beta map.

A more appropriate response would be "this is an awesome start, it's great how it matches the topo, I'm really looking forward to when you add the terracing. Have you thought of making it harder for tanks to move".

IMHO.

GaJ

[hoolaman]

Oh sorry I meant to say: Gee whiz everything's great!

There was never any suggestion that it was a beta version of the map that I saw. And I'd be very surprised if there is any change to terrain elements from CMFI.

Though I probably should have posted on Bil's side, since it's his map.

[JonS]

Hoolaman,

you make an interesting point. Do you have a portfolio of work that I can peruse to see what a proper historical map as rendered in CM looks like?

Cheers

Jon

[ForwardObserver]

Oh sorry I meant to say: Gee whiz everything's great!

There was never any suggestion that it was a beta version of the map that I saw. And I'd be very surprised if there is any change to terrain elements from CMFI.

Though I probably should have posted on Bil's side, since it's his map.

hoola, I posted on the Peanut Gallery a comparison between Google Earth data and one of the screenshots in the AAR threads.

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 20, 0:51-050

Here is the belated report.

As I mentioned, the main thing this turn was a pair of HTs rushing out to my right.

At this point, they can only be seen by my forward scout, and Bil may not be aware that I can see them.

I presume that he's experimenting with the idea that I don't have the West Spur well defended, and seeing how far he can get with a lightweight punch.

My Tame M10 arrived at the place I sent it to, and could see what I expected: the wheatfield where the HTs were heading. Except that they were not there: they are still stopped.

They must have dropped off scouts, who presumably right now are working their way towards my forward scout in that region... they must be amazingly close!?

(Please let them not have actually slipped past?!)

Well, since the HTs aren't there, for now, I need to keep dodging with this M10, lest more shells start falling around it, or it gets spotted by one of those overwatching tanks accidentally (as far as I know, nothing can see it, but it wouldn't take much of an adjustment on Bil's part to find a gap in the trees). So this turn is is scooting around again to get a view of the approach route of those HTs, similar to the view that the Bunker in that area has.

I'm also adjusting by mid/back field so that the AAHT can wizz around and massacre any force that comes over the West Spur far enough that it looses protection from the overwatching tanks.

If I continue that move, it will mean that the centre has to be held by the central M10s and assorted inf even if a fresh HT push comes there. That does not seem unreasonable at this point.

On the left side, Bil is concentrating on finding my Sniper, sending a unit down off the Tit hunting, and he has taken out one of men. The remaining guy is shooting back, but clearly his minutes are numbered.

The Sniper that I had watching the central road spotted another scout nearby, and opened fire on him. It seems that Bil is trying to get eyes behind The Spur, via sneaky footsoldiers this time.

Bil's JgPz pulled back, and disappeared after rotating left. Perhaps he's decided that indeed it needs a better line to take out the left bunker.

And there are more tank contacts in Bil's back line, back over on the right. This is starting to get towards the scary number of tanks that I was kind of expecting at the beginning.

Now we wait for Bil's return...

GaJ

[womble]

My Tame M10...

Are the other wolverines roaming the hills feral/wild? Perhaps their undomesticated ferocity will be of assistance in defeating the armoured beasts you're facing. Though elephants are not the wolverine's usual prey, nor bears...

[GreenAsJade]

Actually, he's pretty wild, now that his prey didn't show up, so he's heading into the bush

[womble]

Actually, he's pretty wild, now that his prey didn't show up, so he's heading into the bush

Prof. Timothy Fielding: ...When I caught Gerald in '68 he was completely wild.

Gerald, the Gorilla: Wild? I was absolutely livid!

[newlife]

Nice defense so far, GAJ. I'm enjoying the tactical situation.

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 21, 0:50-0:49

Big Bad Bil is Back.

Coming into this turn, the big question was "what would Bil's left hook (on my right flank) do?"

The answer is "it rushed almost into view of the covering guns, then stopped!".

Curiously, the HTs stopped, but the guys didn't get out.

This must mean that Bil knows (suspects strongly) that the West Ridge is covered, and indeed of course it is. He knows that there's an M10 in Tame for a start. And it looks like he is still planning smoke to deal with it - another smoke round arrived this turn. I'm thinking that there must be a truck load more coming, which would be what the HTs are waiting for. It will be really rather interesting to see if he can drop enough smoke to be effective in this wind.

As you already know, I'm nervous as anything about getting that M10 whacked, because the LOS is so tricky, a bolt could come between the trees without me knowing what hit me, or mortar round could suddenly land.

For this reason, since there's nothing for him to see where he is, and it looks like smoke is coming, I'm moving him again. I realised that next to the bunker is actually a good looking place, because the LOS there is great, and the bunker can shield his sides against accidental exposure to the direct south (central ridge/tit region).

In other news, the Elefant appears to be marching forwards...

... its come over the Right Tit and moved up to a position that can see towards Sunken Road. It's interesting to see that Bil once again chose a spot between two trees (or in this case right on one tree!) to park the beast. It seems he values the chance of trunks shielding the side: interesting idea.

Over on that side, he continued hunting my sniper with infantry men ... and the sniper is still alive! I also moved the MMG back up onto the lip of Sunken Road, and they got another shot at an HT, which you can see in the background of the above picture. They will once again pop back down into the cover of the sunken road this turn.

[GreenAsJade]

Here's the overall picture:

Bil moved his JgPz again - it looks like he's given up on the Bunker for now: it appears that the three big tanks (Elefant Brummbar JgPz) are all waiting to bomb the heck out of The Spur/Sunken Road, once they can see someone actually in there. This is a process I just have to wait for while it unfolds.

Irritatingly, the left KW dude has completely disappeared, even though my left wing sniper has a good view all the way right out to the left. I've started moving another small unit up to where that guy seemed to be heading, to see if I can catch him if he's sneaked past in the grass.

[GreenAsJade]

One thing I like already about the AAHT is that it goes like the clappers. I made a bit of a goof running it on the road though: look at that enormous dustcloud that resulted. If Bil sees that it won't be hard for him to guess what's going on there. But that's OK: if it triggers him to bring tanks over to the right flank, that is one place where I have a reasonable chance of interdicting them still.

Note to self: drive on the grass!

My right wing counter recon came under fire this turn, but I can't see where from. It could be from cover on Left Tit or from the HT/scouts that stopped a few turns ago right of centre.

[GreenAsJade]

I think it's also noteworthy that Bil is bringing his mortars/reinforcements up the middle.

It appears he's still not decided where he is going to attack... or maybe he's going to take all three or four possible approaches at once! (The Spur, The Middle, The Right West Spur).

He's brought another Brummbar up behind Left Tit. It looks a little like he thinks I can't see it there - I've decided to throw some 81mm at it just in case I might catch the TC, or an overthrow might land on a truck on the road behind.