LOS and LOF warning

[Georgie]

When I am using the targeting tool to see what my tank can blow up and then I target something and the tank doesn't fire because the tank commander sits higher than the gun and the gun is blocked it would help if there was a warning similar to the "hull down" notice rather than wasting a few turns trying to figure out why the gun doesn't fire. Either that or, and this would be very cool, be able to select the gunners view to verify a valid target.

[agusto]

Either that or, and this would be very cool, be able to select the gunners view to verify a valid target.

You can do that, kind of. If you use a the mouse wheel for controling the camera elevation, go to the lowest possible elevation and then increase the camera elevation exactly by one level (one mousewheel "click") to the second lowest possible elevation. This is now the same elevation level as most tank turrets are.

[womble]

You can do that, kind of. If you use a the mouse wheel for controling the camera elevation, go to the lowest possible elevation and then increase the camera elevation exactly by one level (one mousewheel "click") to the second lowest possible elevation. This is now the same elevation level as most tank turrets are.

It's not very accurate though. You will still get situations where it "looks" like the main gun can bear, but the engine determines that it does not.

The view heights don't seem to correspond to anything, much. It would be much more useful if they were context-sensitive when you had units selected, and the scroll wheel hopped through the various heights from which the unit can observe:

For infantry: prone, kneeling, standing.

For AFVs: driver, bow gunner, gunner, commander, commander unbuttoned, loader (if they have external optics)

[Georgie]

You can do that, kind of. If you use a the mouse wheel for controling the camera elevation, go to the lowest possible elevation and then increase the camera elevation exactly by one level (one mousewheel "click") to the second lowest possible elevation. This is now the same elevation level as most tank turrets are.[/quote

Thanks agusto, I'll give it a try.

[Georgie]

It's not very accurate though. You will still get situations where it "looks" like the main gun can bear, but the engine determines that it does not.

The view heights don't seem to correspond to anything, much. It would be much more useful if they were context-sensitive when you had units selected, and the scroll wheel hopped through the various heights from which the unit can observe:

For infantry: prone, kneeling, standing.

For AFVs: driver, bow gunner, gunner, commander, commander unbuttoned, loader (if they have external optics)

That would be useful, what would you do for AT guns? It is unclear to me where the LOS vs LOF is comming from.

[Erwin]

This is one of my pet peeves every time someone brings it up. The issue is that it is utterly pointless for the AI to give us the LOS to the target of the third ammo bearer/gun layer when in order to play the GAME we need to know if the GUN/GUNNER has LOS and can shoot at the target.

I can understand that it's hard to move a 40 ton tank a couple of inches to the side to get LOS for the gunner. But, when it happens for a MG it's plain ridiculous. Either the LOS system needs to be addressed and revamped, or the AI should be able to move a MG (at least) so as to be able to shoot what the guy immediately to your side can plainly see.

[Georgie]

This is one of my pet peeves every time someone brings it up. The issue is that it is utterly pointless for the AI to give us the LOS to the target of the third ammo bearer/gun layer when in order to play the GAME we need to know if the GUN/GUNNER has LOS and can shoot at the target.

I can understand that it's hard to move a 40 ton tank a couple of inches to the side to get LOS for the gunner. But, when it happens for a MG it's plain ridiculous. Either the LOS system needs to be addressed and revamped, or the AI should be able to move a MG (at least) so as to be able to shoot what the guy immediately to your side can plainly see.

The same thing applies to AT guns. Pointless. Having LOS different than LOF in the game makes no sense to me. IRL the gun crew knows beforehand that the gun can't target every thing that Max, who is standing on a big rock with the binos, can see. In the game you don't know that Max was standing on a big rock until the gun fails to fire at the tank you thought you cited it to target and it gets knocked out by that same tank that Max can see but the gun can't target. Pointless. Come on BF help.

[Vanir Ausf B]

If the target line is solid blue that is supposed to indicate that every member of the unit has LOS to the target. Grey means at least one member of the unit does not have LOS. Unfortunately I have had situations where the gunner would not fire even when the target line was blue.

[Georgie]

The problem with positioning an AT gun or a MG or a tank using the "target" command is that the "target" command shows the sum of what the entire crew can see. Some in the crew may see the entire view that is displayed but some may not and if the gunner is one of the "may not" crowd then your positioning of the gun or tank could very well be faulty. We need a command that will select the view of the gunner as seen thru the gun sight. Just like IRL.

[SlowMotion]

That is needed. Especially when you consider how slow it is to change AT-gun's position. You want to find the right place at first attempt.

[A Canadian Cat]

Thanks agusto, I'll give it a try.

I posted a YouTube video of me doing that recently:

My technique to get to the gunner's level is to go to camera position 2 and down two or three stops of the wheel depending on the vehicle. To get the right height I recommend selecting the vehicle and adjusting the height until you are pretty much looking down the barrel.

[Georgie]

I posted a YouTube video of me doing that recently:

My technique to get to the gunner's level is to go to camera position 2 and down two or three stops of the wheel depending on the vehicle. To get the right height I recommend selecting the vehicle and adjusting the height until you are pretty much looking down the barrel.

That may also work for an AT gun or MG. Just look down the barrel and then reverse your view 180 deg. and then be careful to note things that could block the LOF. A problem is trees in the way, sometimes they block LOF and sometimes they don't. Your technique will certainly help till BF provides us with a LOF tool which will be faster and more precise.

[A Canadian Cat]

Your technique will certainly help till BF provides us with a LOF tool which will be faster and more precise.

The other issue the current LOS tool has that it indicates if your unit can target the ground a the target end. In my video the Stug *cannot* target the ground under that Churchill tank - notice that the wheels are not quite visible. So the LOS tool says that I cannot target that area. Clearly from looking at the game you can see the Churchill just fine from the proposed Stug's position. Being able to determine the visibility of things of various heights would also be welcome.

BTW in the game the Churchill tank moved away before the Stug got into position but the infantry it was attacking took care of it with a close assault.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1429847&postcount=289

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1429847&postcount=290

[Pak40]

If the target line is solid blue that is supposed to indicate that every member of the unit has LOS to the target. Grey means at least one member of the unit does not have LOS. Unfortunately I have had situations where the gunner would not fire even when the target line was blue.

I doubt this is the case with tank crews. The loader for sure can't see a damn thing.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I doubt this is the case with tank crews. The loader for sure can't see a damn thing.

I get grey target lines from tanks.

[Michael Emrys]

I get grey target lines from tanks.

All the time or just when hull down?

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Certainly not all the time. Sometimes when hull down.

[Pak40]

My point is the loader typically is not able to view anything, certainly not anything forward facing. With regards to the gray/blue target lines, they must have coded tank crews only for the crew that actually do the spotting, not the entire crew. Otherwise you'd never get a blue target line.

[agusto]

My point is the loader typically is not able to view anything, certainly not anything forward facing. With regards to the gray/blue target lines, they must have coded tank crews only for the crew that actually do the spotting, not the entire crew. Otherwise you'd never get a blue target line.

The Panzer IV Ausführung A to G had viewports on the side of the turret that could be used by the loader for battlefield observation. They were removed after Ausführung H because the Seitenschürzen of this and later versions made them unecessary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Panzer_IV_1.jpg

The left side of the turret has a viewport too.

The same viewports can be found on the earlier Panzer III:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tmwmIrQp7WE/TvqF3adROuI/AAAAAAAADiY/e0uPPETk1CI/s1600/Pz3L_Panzer_3_Ausf_L_Bovington.jpg

[dieseltaylor]

LOS and LOF are by far the biggest bugbears in the game and the biggest turn-off IMO. I do not want to spend my gaming time wrestling with positioning. Given that tanks have no elevation of weapon systems this seems astonishingly one-sided.

Giving tanks correct elevation is very hard to code and players would not like it we will not do it......... we can code from spot to spot and players must lump it! even if it makes it highly tedious in terms of player time and "results" when trying to site of fire your main weapon.

I think the scenery is wonderful but the faux accuracy with unit spotting and firing just makes the game very kludgy.

[Michael Emrys]

The Panzer IV Ausführung A to G had viewports on the side of the turret that could be used by the loader for battlefield observation.

Those weren't just viewports, they were hatches. In a non-hostile environment, the gunner and loader frequently rode with their upper bodies outside.

Michael

[agusto]

Those weren't just viewports, they were hatches. In a non-hostile environment, the gunner and loader frequently rode with their upper bodies outside.

Yeah, but the hatches had also viewports on them. Would also make sense to have a viewport there so the crew can see what is outside in the immediate proximity of the tank before opening the side hatch.

EDIT:

Ah, okay. That was an unecessary post from me. At first i thought you said those were hatches instead of viewports, but:

Those weren't just viewports, ...

EDIT2: I just noticed that apearently the driver of the Pz IV also had side viewports.

[Battlefront.com]

To clear something up. BLUE line does not mean everybody in the unit can see that particular point. As was pointed out, the loader in a tank isn't even looking in the direction the gun is facing. What means is the unit is able to effectively take that space under fire. If a key part of the unit, such as the gunner, can't see that spot then the line goes GRAY.

Pretty simple, pretty straight forward.

The only issues that can come up have to do with relative heights. You might not be able to see the ground or a kneeling soldier, and therefore get a GRAY line. But if a tank drives through that spot you might be able to shoot at it because it's higher up. Vice versa, you might be happily plugging away at a unit running (BLUE line), but then it drops down into a gully and now you can't. All quite realistic.

The Enhanced LOS system is one of the biggest improvements to wargaming because it portrays the realities of a 3D environment far more accurately. Anybody that thinks going back to the "one height to rule them all" system of other games is a good idea has absolutely no idea what they are yammering on about. Which is good, because it is easy to ignore ignorant blow hards since they obviously have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

The downside of making the game more realistic (which is what you guys claim you want) is that it makes the game less black and white. There are now nuances to deal with which other games completely ignore. This introduces more uncertainty which is realistic (and supposedly what you guys want). So all this should be seen as positive things.

Yes, it would be great if could come up with an LOS/LOF tool which could show you more explicitly how relative heights interact with each other without getting down into the map to double check or (as I usually do) use intuition. It's not an easy task, but it is one that I think we can try tackling in the near future now that the game engine is so solid and other higher priority feature requests have been satisfied.

Steve

[womble]

Yes, it would be great if could come up with an LOS/LOF tool which could show you more explicitly how relative heights interact with each other without getting down into the map to double check or (as I usually do) use intuition. It's not an easy task, but it is one that I think we can try tackling in the near future now that the game engine is so solid and other higher priority feature requests have been satisfied.

Steve

For my money, a good first stage step towards getting that task tackled would be to have view heights more closely match the heights of the unit selected. ATM, the minimum view height is over the heads of standing infantry, and mouse scroll ticks 1 and 2 don't quite match most vehicle view levels. They visually match some quite well, but even then there are times when an apparent boresight view won't let the target be seen, though it appears clearly visible.

[poesel]

For my money, a good first stage step towards getting that task tackled would be to have view heights more closely match the heights of the unit selected.

Nice idea! If 1, 2, 3 would jump to the viewing height of a prone, kneeling and standing soldier looking at the horizon (0° please, not down) that would be very use- and helpful.

Add to that a 'fix camera view TO point' (the reverse of 'fix to unit') and intuition will prevail.