Do we really need the deploy command

[agusto]

Y

If he's playing as Americans, undeployed MGs won't fire.

IIRC the M1919A6 .30 calibre does.

[Apocal]

IIRC the M1919A6 .30 calibre does.

Is that the paratrooper one with the bipod? Then yeah, it does, but the others (regular 30cal, 50cal) don't.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Light machine guns don't have the option to deploy, so they are always in effect firing un-deployed. Unless the game considers them deployed if the gunner happens to be prone at the moment.

[_Itchy]

But now you'd have a major problem.

...you guys have managed to get the Deploy command removed from the game...

In fact my suggestion was not to remove the command but to change the default - a tweak to optimize the amount of clicks involved in playing the game. Deploy where you are, move elsewhere to deploy - there would be no problem at all in the situation you describe.

[Lethaface]

There better be a d*mn good reason for changing any default behaviour, especially after such a long time.

I don't really see the problem with the feature: click 'deploy' to deploy, click again to 'undeploy'.

Now the UI that facilitates this feature can be enhanced, surely. There is also room for improvement regarding being able to see the actual status of a unit. Nobody likes to forget to deploy. But sure as hell nobody will like it to forget selecting 'don't deploy'.

Removing the command altogether creates a lot of new problems that others have already mentioned.

Changing the default wont solve the underlying problem:

- it is easy forget to (not)deploy.

- it is sometimes unclear whether a unit is deploying or not

Energy spend discussing which side a toggle should face is better used in trying to think out the box, to solve underlying problems.

Apart from UI improvements I saw one suggestion I think nobody should disagree with:

- Let units without movement orders, which can only fire while deployed, deploy automatically given any target command.

Small suggestion by me:

- Being able to cycle between units that have a deploy function. That would make it more easy to check up whether you as a player forgot any important stuff.

[StkNRdr]

No issue with Deploy switch here. One thing though, I was surprised, while playing CMFN-CW that not all mortar teams had the Deploy button. It seems the 2-inch mortars setup by themselves. Amazing what one finds when one reads the manual. Wish I knew more about when they deploy.

[Redwolf]

IMHO it is ridiculous to have the deploy requirement for 60mm mortars but not the 50mm ones.

This thing should go.

[Michael Emrys]

IMHO it is ridiculous to have the deploy requirement for 60mm mortars but not the 50mm ones.

Yeah, it's time the 2" got a Deploy button. It shouldn't be left out in the cold all by itself.

Michael

[Redwolf]

Yeah, it's time the 2" got a Deploy button. It shouldn't be left out in the cold all by itself.

Michael

It's just not a useful feature.

Might it be useful when looked at in isolation? Sure, maybe, whatever.

Does it overall add to the realism if the battalion commander himself has to visit every single 60mm mortar and medium MG to say "yes not only do you stop, you also deploy your weapon"? No.

On the contrary, the likelihood to forget the deploy command makes for an unrealistically high amount of medium weapons that are in the right position but don't fire - when they would fire in reality. You should me the mortarman or M1919 crew that simply sits there watching a fight not deploying their weapon.

[JonS]

IMHO it is ridiculous to have the deploy requirement for 60mm mortars but not the 50mm ones.

Ridiculous is equating a grenade launcher with a mortar.

[JonS]

Does it overall add to the realism if the battalion commander himself has to visit every single 60mm mortar and medium MG to say "yes not only do you stop, you also deploy your weapon"? No.

That would be an astoundingly good point ... if CM were a bn level game.

On the contrary, the likelihood to forget the deploy command makes for an unrealistically high amount of medium weapons that are in the right position but don't fire

I don't know about you, but I get a divide-by-zero error when I try and calculate exactly what that 'unrealistically high amount' is.

You [show?] me the mortarman or M1919 crew that simply sits there watching a fight not deploying their weapon.

I take it, then, that you've never been in the army. Or even read some of the better memoirs.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Newbie question here...how do you know when the weapon (say, an onboard mortar) is deployed or not? From what I can see, there's no visual clue to this of any kind on the dashboard.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In the center pane with the silhouette or picture of the unit it will say "not deployed" if it is not deployed but could be in the case of mortars and towed guns, "semi-deployed" in the case of machine guns. If it's deployed or not capable of deploying it won't say anything.

[Erwin]

I thought the issue with "deploy" is if it only takes a couple seconds to deploy or undeploy it's automatic cos "why not?"

But, if it's going to be around 15+ seconds then it makes a difference.

Then some of us would want a "Stay Undeployed" button to make sure the dam weapons crew didn't deploy every time they stopped.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think the only way to remove the deploy command without causing more problems than it solves is to remove deploy and un-deploy times and just make them instant like in CMx1. That would certainly simplify and streamline gameplay, and the UI as well, but at the cost of some realism.

Personally, I like the way it works now.

[agusto]

I think the only way to remove the deploy command without causing more problems than it solves is to remove deploy and un-deploy times and just make them instant like in CMx1. That would certainly simplify and streamline gameplay, and the UI as well, but at the cost of some realism.

Ha, i would hate that.. The deployment times of some of the larger weapons are a a serious tactical consideration. If they were removed, you could just roll an 88s mm flak or a Pak 43 gun up a hill, fire, and back up. Shoot and scoot with such a huge weapon, really?

[Erwin]

Yeah, that would make CM one (small) step closer to being a shooter than a sim.

I don't see how the "Deploy" command is a serious issue. Far worse is the issue of third ammo bearers seeing a target but not the gun or gunner. This is a pointless LOS exercise since most times nothing can be done to shoot at the target.

There needs to be some "auto move" so that a HMG or gun can move a couple inches so the weapon can shoot at the target.

[Redwolf]

Ha, i would hate that.. The deployment times of some of the larger weapons are a a serious tactical consideration. If they were removed, you could just roll an 88s mm flak or a Pak 43 gun up a hill, fire, and back up. Shoot and scoot with such a huge weapon, really?

Nobody suggested to set the deploy time to zero.

People suggested that deploy automatically starts when stopping. So that the player doesn't have to micromanage each 60mm mortar while trying to have a realistic experience as a battalion commander.

Which is how I remember it was in CMx1. I think some people here have selective memory and/or never played CMx1. It wasn't nearly as naive as some make it.

And BTW 88s don't roll in this game either way, you should really be a bit more careful with what you are saying, agusto. It's wrong on just a couple levels too many.

[Michael Emrys]

It's just not a useful feature.

That's your opinion. Noted.

Does it overall add to the realism if the battalion commander himself has to visit every single 60mm mortar and medium MG to say "yes not only do you stop, you also deploy your weapon"? No.

I don't find it that way at all. What I would find burdensome would be to have to go through my entire list of heavy weapons at the end of every turn to make sure that they don't deploy until I want them to. Since in play the default condition for heavy weapons in the midst of a movement sequence is undeployed, I prefer for the order to reflect that reality.

On the contrary, the likelihood to forget the deploy command makes for an unrealistically high amount of medium weapons that are in the right position but don't fire - when they would fire in reality. You should me the mortarman or M1919 crew that simply sits there watching a fight not deploying their weapon.

If a player's brain is not capable of recognizing that at the end of this particular movement sequence it is time to deploy, then maybe he shouldn't be playing this kind of game at all.

However much a hardship it may be for some players to use the system as it currently exists, the proposed change would be an even greater hardship for a larger number of players.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Far worse is the issue of third ammo bearers seeing a target but not the gun or gunner. This is a pointless LOS exercise since most times nothing can be done to shoot at the target.

There needs to be some "auto move" so that a HMG or gun can move a couple inches so the weapon can shoot at the target.

Or (perhaps better?) option would be that in case of a weapons team with a functional weapon, the LOS would always and only be drawn from the weapon's gunner. Or if that is too limiting of spotting abilities, at least provide some kind of information that the gunner does not have LOS.

Michael

[agusto]

Nobody suggested to set the deploy time to zero.

People suggested that deploy automatically starts when stopping. So that the player doesn't have to micromanage each 60mm mortar while trying to have a realistic experience as a battalion commander.

Vanif Ausf. B said if the deploy command was completely removed, this would likely have to go hand in hand with the removal of the deployment times in order to not cause more problems then solving. I responded to that post (wich i quoted). Next time read my full post.

And BTW 88s don't roll in this game either way, you should really be a bit more careful with what you are saying, agusto. It's wrong on just a couple levels too many.

Does that error in the detail make my general statement about the other heavy weapons with long deploy times untrue? It doesnt. To be honest i had never moved an 88mm in CMBN, except for the vehicle mounted tank guns.

Fact is: the deploy time of a weapon is something you currently have to considerate when thinking up CMBN tactics and removing it would IMO change the way the game plays very much away from a realistic experience.

[Redwolf]

Vanif Ausf. B said if the deploy command was completely removed, this would likely have to go hand in hand with the removal of the deployment times in order to not cause more problems then solving. I responded to that post (wich i quoted). Next time read my full post.

Does that error in the detail make my general statement about the other heavy weapons with long deploy times untrue? It doesnt. To be honest i had never moved an 88mm in CMBN, except for the vehicle mounted tank guns.

Fact is: the deploy time of a weapon is something you currently have to considerate when thinking up CMBN tactics and removing it would IMO change the way the game plays very much away from a realistic experience.

Again, nobody wants to remove deploy time. Just the explicit command that you have to give. You will still have to consider deploy time when moving something somewhere.

And try to do shoot'n'scoot with a 88 sometime, in CMx1 is you want.

[agusto]

Again, nobody wants to remove deploy time. Just the explicit command that you have to give. You will still have to consider deploy time when moving something somewhere.

I never said that anybody would want that, i was just talking about the hypothetical case mentioned by Vanir Ausf. B and expressing why i would not want that. I thought that was obvious.

And try to do shoot'n'scoot with a 88 sometime, in CMx1 is you want.

Never played CMx1. But if you include indirect fire as threat you run away from after firing a few shots with an AT gun, you could sort of "shoot and scoot" with heavy weapons if there was no deploy time. Although i ve rarely used AT guns in CMBN if they werent included in the preset scenario OOB, i can recall several occasions where i lost a gun due to mortar fire i couldnt run away from in time due to the guns long undeploy time.

[Redwolf]

I never said that anybody would want that, i was just talking about the hypothetical case mentioned by Vanir Ausf. B and expressing why i would not want that. I thought that was obvious.

Never played CMx1. But if you include indirect fire as threat you run away from after firing a few shots with an AT gun, you could sort of "shoot and scoot" with heavy weapons if there was no deploy time. Although i ve rarely used AT guns in CMBN if they werent included in the preset scenario OOB, i can recall several occasions where i lost a gun due to mortar fire i couldnt run away from in time due to the guns long undeploy time.

You are living in fantasy lu-la land. Not even CMx1 could move 88s, and there was setup time. Your posting simply distract from the point of the conversation, which is whether the explicit command is useful or not.

Furthermore, none of the CMx1 or CMx2 games allow you to back up guns, so you have to rotate them first, which is extremely slow. That actually might be worth fixing, too.

[JasonC]

To be fair to agusto, Vanir mistakenly said that CMx1 had instant set up times, when actually it does not, but he was as yet uncontradicted on the point at the time agusto posted. So it is entirely understandable that someone reading the thread who was unfamiliar with CMx1 would think it did not have set up times.

CMx1 had set up times. They began counting down as soon as a moving crew served weapon went stationary. You could order a unit to move at any time, and doing so would reset the set up count down to its full value. To deploy, you just refrained from giving new move orders until the count down got to zero. No interface required, no special order required, no instant anything. Crew served weapons left stationary long enough to set up were automatically set up and would fire; crew served weapons not yet stationary long enough to set up were in the process of deploying, and you could see the time left for them to complete their set up in a prominent count-down when that unit was selected - but were not yet able to fire, until that count down hit zero.

I don't see anything superior about the current system, to that older one, which in my opinion was not broken and did not need fixing. But my biggest beef against the current system is just the difficulty, both visually and conceptually, of distinguishing a crew served weapon's "deployment and order state" - it is not only either deployed or not, but also under orders to become deployed or not under such orders, and if under such orders somewhere in the process of actually becoming deployed. I find the interface sufficient to tell me whether the unit is actually completely deployed at the moment. I do not find it sufficient to tell me easily and unambiguously whether it is under orders to deploy that it hasn't yet completed (or perhaps even initiated - i.e. just ordered without a second elapsed since). And I find the toggle control to change that order, with its very unapparent state, particularly annoying in this respect. I find that, in practice, I frequently enough to be annoyed by it, order a given unit to deploy an even number of times, and find as a result I have ordered them not to deploy, erroneously.

And I have never, in my entire experience playing CMx2, wanted to wait, stationary and undeployed, with a crew served weapon. I can hear others saying they do this, I can recognize it must be so for them, but I still see no tactical point in it, in practice. A hacky way of getting fire discipline for a low ammo mortar is as close as I've come to seeing such a reason that makes sense to me, and personally I either stay out of LOS entirely or just use an arc for that purpose.

I'd settle for just having a clearer indication of the orders state, sharply distinguished from its actual accomplishment. Even just changing the toggle display states to "deploy weapon", "pack up weapon", would be enough. I'd rather I didn't have to order it at all, but I'd settle for that cosmetic change.