Do we really need the deploy command

[agusto]

You are living in fantasy lu-la land. Not even CMx1 could move 88s, and there was setup time.

Furthermore, none of the CMx1 or CMx2 games allow you to back up guns, so you have to rotate them first, which is extremely slow. That actually might be worth fixing, too.

Well, it wasnt me who initially said CMx1 had no set up time. Besides that, if you (again) had read and understood what i wrote, you had noted that i was not solely refereing to the 88 and that i admitted beeing incorrect about the 88s specific case of beeing moveable or not. But obviously reading and understanding a text is none of your strenghts.

Your posting simply distract from the point of the conversation, which is whether the explicit command is useful or not.

No it is not. There was a statement that said that removing the deploy command completely would probably make it necessary to remove the deploy times as well, and i made short response to that, stating that if removing the deploy command would mean that the deploy times had to be removed as well, this would decrease the realism of the game. You started the discussion and put words in my mouth that i had never said that way.

But i agree with you, we are getting away from initial topic. Lets leave it at this point.

[Wodin]

Again I'd rather be asked than not..otherwise they will try and set up everytime they stop and I may not want them to..that would happen to much. I also always want to set the facing aswell..so it's no problem really..I give the command to move then click the last waypoint and click facing then set up. Simples.

[Wodin]

Agusto I noticed Redwolf put words in your mouth..he sort of set you up there..unfair I say. Was going to mention it then though no..then changed my mind again. Redwolf that was definite foul play sir.

[Vanir Ausf B]

To be fair to agusto, Vanir mistakenly said that CMx1 had instant set up times, when actually it does not, but he was as yet uncontradicted on the point at the time agusto posted. So it is entirely understandable that someone reading the thread who was unfamiliar with CMx1 would think it did not have set up times.

Yes, my memory was a little off on that. CMx1 did have setup time.

What it did not have, that made it simple to deploy at every stop, was packing-up time. If you can pack-up instantly then why not deploy? But CMx2 does have packing-up time.

[Michael Emrys]

What it did not have, that made it simple to deploy at every stop, was packing-up time. If you can pack-up instantly then why not deploy? But CMx2 does have packing-up time.

And that is precisely why I want to keep the Deploy order. Now I agree somewhat with Jason that it would be better if there was a more explicit visual cue as to what state a weapon team is in: deployed; deploying (with a countdown); packing up (again with a countdown); and undeployed.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

CMx1 had a countdown, so it is odd that CMx2 does not. I agree that would be a positive change, as would more descriptive text stating exactly what the current unit status is. It would also be nice if deploy and packing-up were interruptable, since IIRC they presently are not once initiated.

[Rocky Balboa]

However much a hardship it may be for some players to use the system as it currently exists, the proposed change would be an even greater hardship for a larger number of players.

There seems to be a trend in this thread with stating opinion as fact (myself included).

With that said the proposed change is really no different than the way CMx1 handled deployment, which never caused a hardship to my knowledge, in which case your statement is of course your opinion and should be noted as such.

[Vanir Ausf B]

With that said the proposed change is really no different than the way CMx1 handled deployment, which never caused a hardship to my knowledge

As noted, CMx1 did not have packing-up time. That's not an opinion

[Vanir Ausf B]

And BTW, I'm not unsympathetic to the idea of changing it, but I do think it would cause as many problems as it would solve, and I personally have not had much problem with forgetting to deploy units, maybe because I tend to cycle through every unit every turn checking on who is hiding, who is not, ect. I can imaging it would be more of a hassle for RT players.

Ideally there could be an option toggle for making deploy at the end of movement orders the default behavior.

[Redwolf]

I set up nobody to nothing.

There isn't anything that you have to do to see people misreport what CMx1 did or did not.

Visual clue would be nice but for WEGO players you'd still lose a turn.

[JasonC]

Vanir - not having packing up time isn't a hardship. Having them might be a realism improvement, but it has an MM cost. It is easier on players not to have one.

You could also track whether the soldiers' socks are wet and have them get blisters if they move too much for too long after their socks get wet, and allow players to avoid the blistered feet movement penalty by taking extra dry socks when they leave a halftrack, and ordering their soldiers to change them during lulls in the firefight, tracking which boots are on and whether the laces are tight, with a chance of knots and stuff - and it might be a realism improvement. But it would certainly be a hardship for the players. And entirely pointless.

I don't think packing up time is entirely pointless. But it is pretty much entirely pointless.

Also, CMx1 had command delays to move for everyone, so effectively it had packing up times, it just rolled them into the time the sarge took to tell people where to go, and let the time drop for veterans, and the like. More abstract, sure. Cleaner and less MM? Much.

But as I said, while I preferred the old system on this specific issue and did not consider it broken in any way, or in need of any significant change, I'd settle for a big neon sign telling my fat fingers when they've pressed that dang useless extra button an even instead of an odd number of times...

[JonS]

but for WEGO players you'd still lose a turn.

So what? If you make a mistake, deal with it. Don't demand other people to protect you from yourself all the time.

[Childress]

Has BF thought about making Setup times and Packing Up times variable? They're fixed now, right? And letting experienced/motivated crews perform these duties faster- usually.

[JasonC]

JonS - asking the designers of user interfaces to accommodate the specific common modes of failure of the actual users they are designing that interface for, is not asking "other people" to protect you from yourself all the time. It is asking - wait for it - user interface designers, to design good user interfaces.

[Baneman]

Personally, I think changing the Deploy command to a default behaviour would add as much micro-management as it currently takes - just to undo unwanted deploys instead of set deploy.

I would like to see the GUI button gain improved visibility though, for ease of identifying which state it's in.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Also, CMx1 had command delays to move for everyone, so effectively it had packing up times, it just rolled them into the time the sarge took to tell people where to go, and let the time drop for veterans, and the like. More abstract, sure. Cleaner and less MM? Much.

Basically true for machine guns, not so much for towed guns which have pack-up times of several minutes compared to a typical command delay of 14 seconds. But there are no command delays in CMx2 anyways.

No question that adding packing-up time and the deploy button has added to both MM and realism. I disagree that it is a bad trade-off. I frankly wish we had more commands and more minute control over units, not less. But to each their own. I think it highly unlikely BFC would ever intentionally make the game less realistic, but they've surprised me before.

[Redwolf]

Vanir - not having packing up time isn't a hardship. Having them might be a realism improvement, but it has an MM cost. It is easier on players not to have one.

You could also track whether the soldiers' socks are wet and have them get blisters if they move too much for too long after their socks get wet, and allow players to avoid the blistered feet movement penalty by taking extra dry socks when they leave a halftrack, and ordering their soldiers to change them during lulls in the firefight, tracking which boots are on and whether the laces are tight, with a chance of knots and stuff - and it might be a realism improvement. But it would certainly be a hardship for the players. And entirely pointless.

I don't think packing up time is entirely pointless. But it is pretty much entirely pointless.

Another major reason why we don't need packup times right now is that guns can't back up, so loading them to a vehicle has the huge turn delay which is longer than a normal packup anyway.

[JonS]

JonS - asking the designers of user interfaces to accommodate the specific common modes of failure of the actual users they are designing that interface for, is not asking "other people" to protect you from yourself all the time. It is asking - wait for it - user interface designers, to design good user interfaces.

No, UI redesign is something completely different. CM has traditionally always had a fairly user-hostile UI, and could use some work in a lot of places.

Redwolf, et al, want the computer to deploy their weapons automatically for them, because they wet their pants in fright at the thought of 'wasting' half a WEGO turn when they forget to do some thing or another. We've seen the same basic drive for perfectly efficient pixeltruppen in any number of other similarly fearful and misguided threads in the past. The pants-wetting has now gotten so bad that they want to get rid of pack up times altogether. Absurd.

[JasonC]

So, basically what you are trying to say, JonS, is that you are just an *******. Have I got that right?

[Redwolf]

You cannot beat the absurdity of demanding that the battalion commander tells every single 60mm mortar and m1919 machine gun whether to set up at the end of a movement or not, specifically rejecting other options so that you can "keep packup time in"...

... while at the same time ignoring that for major weapon systems (namely guns) the packup time is completely out of whack due to the issue of having to turn 180 degrees with that super-slow turn rate that for some reason is in all CM games.

And you can always see who are the posters that have been cornered by logic.

[JonS]

No, I'm saying my panties aren't in a bunch, and they're not wet either. Klar?

[Michael Emrys]

Oh dear, time to lock this one before they start throwing the pudding. It was bad enough when they were just throwing the rolls.

Michael

[agusto]

You cannot beat the absurdity of demanding that the battalion commander tells every single 60mm mortar and m1919 machine gun whether to set up at the end of a movement or not, specifically rejecting other options so that you can "keep packup time in"...

You are not only the battallion commander in CMBN. You are every commander from the team leader up to the battallion commander.

[LukeFF]

You are not only the battallion commander in CMBN. You are every commander from the team leader up to the battallion commander.

Exactly.

...

[Michael Emrys]

...your statement is of course your opinion and should be noted as such.

True enough, but it is not opinion unsupported by evidence. Consider: not only have people posted in this thread objecting to your suggestion, but it is reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the people who have not posted in this thread because they are reasonably satisfied with having a deploy command, even if they might desire that it be improved so that it is easier to see exactly what state a weapons team is in and what its orders are. I do not see a heap of people jumping on your bandwagon.

Michael