Why can't I see those guns?

[Zenomorph]

This is a carry over question from playing CMBB but I figure it'll apply to CMBN. I've only had a chance to play the smaller maps in CMBN and in order to avoid my coming frustration I thought I'd ask this question proactively.

Playing as the Germans I had a bunch of tanks moving over an open field and then "clang!!" up in smoke goes one of my panzers. So I'm searching around desperately for something to shoot back at. And....nothing. "Clang" there goes another. I can roughly tell where the shots are coming from due to the tracer so I race a few tanks toward the area. Eventually I find an AT gun amongst some rocky terrain but not before losing at least one more panzer.

So... then I play the same scenario from the Russian side. I park my AT gun in the exact same spot, give the crew a "hide" order until I finally give it a "fire" order when the Germans are about the same distance away as they were when I was controlling them. Problem is, as soon as my AT gun fires every single panzer opens up on it, immediately blasting the crew to smitherines.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong that the AI seemed to be doing right? Thanks!

[Childress]

CM1 had Borg Spotting. Once an enemy unit was spotted the info was passed on to every friendly.

[Redwolf]

This is a carry over question from playing CMBB but I figure it'll apply to CMBN. I've only had a chance to play the smaller maps in CMBN and in order to avoid my coming frustration I thought I'd ask this question proactively.

Playing as the Germans I had a bunch of tanks moving over an open field and then "clang!!" up in smoke goes one of my panzers. So I'm searching around desperately for something to shoot back at. And....nothing. "Clang" there goes another. I can roughly tell where the shots are coming from due to the tracer so I race a few tanks toward the area. Eventually I find an AT gun amongst some rocky terrain but not before losing at least one more panzer.

So... then I play the same scenario from the Russian side. I park my AT gun in the exact same spot, give the crew a "hide" order until I finally give it a "fire" order when the Germans are about the same distance away as they were when I was controlling them. Problem is, as soon as my AT gun fires every single panzer opens up on it, immediately blasting the crew to smitherines.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong that the AI seemed to be doing right? Thanks!

In CMx2 both humans are the AI should be able to see firing guns very quickly. Really sophisticated camouflage that historically made AT guns a huge problems in e.g. Normandy isn't modeled (yet?).

Make sure you select no unit when trying to get a spotting report.

CMx1 had an extremely simple rule for this and was purely distance-based, with a table for terrain types and distance and maybe a few other factors but no randomness.

[womble]

Things that make a difference in CMx2:

Buttoned/Unbuttoned: having your TCs' heads out of their snorting growling beasts lets them spot hostiles much more readily.

Troop quality: Elites will spot much more than Greens, or, Ifni forfend, Conscripts.

Setup bonus: ATGs that don't move from setup get a concealment bonus.

C2 (at least AIUI): once one of your units that's in communication with another unit, has acquired the target, the second unit has an improved chance of spotting it.

Hide: if the concealment for the gun is low-lying, having the crew Hide will stop them kneeling up, and possibly keep them hidden in the grass (or whatever). Note that the crew's situational awareness will be significantly degraded. Edit: and the concealment will have to be tall enough to hide the gun in the first place... not really a likely situation for Pak43s, but 38s and 40s are just short enough to stay below the level of extra tall grass, IIRC, where their crews heads stick up above while kneeling.

Concealment: you have to remember, always, in CMx2, that terrain is WYSIWYG. Trees are sticks with foliage balls on them. The presence of trees emphatically does not denote any particular level of concealment on the ground beneath them as it would in very many other games, including CMx1. This is a major, game changing paradigm shift that you will have to become facile with, or you will struggle with maintaining the "empty battlefield".

Why you got spotted with apparent ease when the AI remained invisible in CMx1, I couldn't even begin to speculate, but spotting in x2 is a pretty complicated beast. Just expect to spend some time learning where to site your ATGs. Keyholes are, erm, key...

[Vanir Ausf B]

Spotting, like most other activities, is semi-random. All of the above advice is sound, but it is stacking the odds in your favor, not guaranteeing a result. One of your units or one of the AI's units can always get lucky and with only 2 examples it is likely that luck played a large role in the outcomes.

[sburke]

In CMx2 both humans are the AI should be able to see firing guns very quickly. Really sophisticated camouflage that historically made AT guns a huge problems in e.g. Normandy isn't modeled (yet?).

Not strictly true. A lot of the effectiveness of AT guns also has to do with map design. AT guns when firing aren't exactly sneaky about it. There is going to be dust etc kicked up. AT guns unable to fire at decent ranges or at least a good keyhole will be spotted. However set them up using their historical strength and you have quite a different experience.

Pete does some really good maps displaying this capability in Shadow of the Hill. Jons and I went head to head and I had a pair of AT guns chew up his tanks. He never did get a decent eye on them. He had a general idea where they were and dumped a crapload of arty on them, but at the end one of them was still denying him access to an entire section of the map. I have learned quite a bit from the two of them about anti armor tactics and some of the mis conceptions I worked from that were hurting my ability to successfully combat armor. Not that I am much better now, but I have stopped blaming the game too much for my failures...

[Vanir Ausf B]

2 other factors that play a big role in the spotting of ATGs:

1) Size matters. An Flak36 88mm is much more easily spotted than a Pak38 50mm.

2) Range. At 200 meters your guns will not remain unspotted for long no matter what you do. 500 meters will let them live longer. At 1000+ meters ATGs may remain unspotted for long time periods even when firing in LOS of enemy units.

[Erwin]

Not sure if that addresses what Zenomorph was saying. I got the impression that he simply switched sides so all units were the same. He had his AT gun hiding until it made its first shot. What I think he's asking is why do the AI tanks all immediately see his AT gun once it fires (and shoot back accurately), when as human controlled they could not see anything.

I figured the issue would be what advantages the AI has in order to make the game playable/enjoyable/challenging vs the AI.

[Vanir Ausf B]

If tanks are in the same formation they are normally always in C2 with each other, so if even one of them spots something it is likely all the others in LOS to that something will spot it very soon after due to information sharing.

[ASL Veteran]

Not sure if that addresses what Zenomorph was saying. I got the impression that he simply switched sides so all units were the same. He had his AT gun hiding until it made its first shot. What I think he's asking is why do the AI tanks all immediately see his AT gun once it fires (and shoot back accurately), when as human controlled they could not see anything.

I figured the issue would be what advantages the AI has in order to make the game playable/enjoyable/challenging vs the AI.

He also said that he switched sides to the Russians so it's hard to tell if he's asking a question about CMBN or CMBB.

[noob]

Put medium AT guns in crop fields, where the crop is nearly as high as the AT gun, then make sure they can open up at about 750m, then, they will be nigh on invisible for multiple turns, although a diligent player can scan at ground level for sound contacts, it will still allow at least two or three turns of no risk firing, and even then the reply will be relatively inaccurate, IMO, it's the best way to deploy them if you want concealment over cover, then if you can add foxholes, your cover increases at no detriment to concealment.

[fatehunter]

noob, is a 7.5 cm a medium? or are we talking 5 cm or less.

[JonS]

The distinctions are a bit artibrary, since each gun was the best A-Tk gun available when it came into service, but for 1944 in Normandy I'd say:

37mm/2-pr (40mm) = light

75mm/6-pr (57mm) = medium

88mm/17-pr (76mm) = heavy

Not sure where you'd put the 50mm. It could go in either, really, depending on other particulars. But probably in the light category. Similarly, I think the US towed 3-in would be a heavy.

I suspect, though, that noob is referrei

[noob]

noob, is a 7.5 cm a medium? or are we talking 5 cm or less.

I should of been more specific, my test was with a 6 pdr, which has the lowest profile out of all the AT guns in CMBN, so much so, that the crop is the same height as the top of the gun shield, however, the US 57mm, Pak 38, are not that much higher, also, the barrels of all these guns are equal to, or only slightly higher than the crop, however, the Pak 40 has a high shield, and the 17 pdr, and Pak 43, have barrels that are considerably more elevated, so, any gun, under 75mm will get the best cover, but i would test them all, just to see what the differences are in exposure times.

I used to always look to place AT guns in hedges before i saw how concealed a 6 pdr in a crop was, so i chose a scenario that allowed me to use them that way, then played it as a hot seat game, and was blown away by the length of time it took the guns to show just a question mark icon, the only way i knew there were guns prior to the icons was by skimming the area with my ear to the ground, however, as i mentioned before, the range has to be plus 600m to get the most benefit.

[ASL Veteran]

This is a carry over question from playing CMBB but I figure it'll apply to CMBN.

Nothing from CMBB applies to CMBN especially when it comes to spotting. The spotting routines are completely different so if you are asking a question about a situation on spotting in CMBB and trying to apply it to CMBN then it's a bit of a waste of time.

I've only had a chance to play the smaller maps in CMBN and in order to avoid my coming frustration I thought I'd ask this question proactively.

Playing as the Germans I had a bunch of tanks moving over an open field and then "clang!!" up in smoke goes one of my panzers. So I'm searching around desperately for something to shoot back at. And....nothing. "Clang" there goes another. I can roughly tell where the shots are coming from due to the tracer so I race a few tanks toward the area. Eventually I find an AT gun amongst some rocky terrain but not before losing at least one more panzer.

So... then I play the same scenario from the Russian side. I park my AT gun in the exact same spot, give the crew a "hide" order until I finally give it a "fire" order when the Germans are about the same distance away as they were when I was controlling them. Problem is, as soon as my AT gun fires every single panzer opens up on it, immediately blasting the crew to smitherines.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong that the AI seemed to be doing right? Thanks!

The entire situation you described appears to have come from a CMBB game that you played. It appears that what you are saying is that the AI has an inherent spotting advantage in CMBB that you have proven to exist through a test that you ran. Under the same identical test conditions the AI spotted enemy truppen better than truppen under your command could spot enemy truppen. From what I can tell, we are now being asked to proactively give you pointers on how to spot enemy units as well as the AI does .... in CMBN ..... because you want to overcome the perception that you have of the AI's inherent spotting advantage in CMBB and by extension all CM games both x1 and x2? :confused: