Off-Topic: TMA Soviet Infantry

[baron Jacquinot]

I like demo charges in game, especial in SS hands)))

[Rokko]

Something a little off topic but there is a question that has been on my mind for some time.

If a Panzerfaust failed to launch or you just wanted to look cool, could you actually throw it like a spear?

I know it sounds ridiculous but I'm really wondering

[c3k]

Soviet manpower shortages resulted in widespread forced conscription as they regained lost territory, and as they invaded fresh territory. A lot of those forced to serve we less than motivated.

[Broadsword56]

Soviet manpower shortages resulted in widespread forced conscription as they regained lost territory, and as they invaded fresh territory. A lot of those forced to serve we less than motivated.

Yet they also couldn't break and run, since they had as much to fear in punishment from their own side as from the enemy.

Which raises a good CM question: What would be the best way to set the "soft factors" to represent the typical Red Army soldier of WW II (yes, I realize there's no such thing and it depends on the time/place/unit and whether it might have been a Guards formation or rifle troops, etc.)?

I'm imagining troops that have low training, little experience, little initiative, not particularly well skilled, but also very stubbornly persistent in combat and much more likely to fight/die in place than rout.

How would one represent that in game, since it would seem that very poor motivation doesn't usually equal high staying power?

[YankeeDog]

Something a little off topic but there is a question that has been on my mind for some time.

If a Panzerfaust failed to launch or you just wanted to look cool, could you actually throw it like a spear?

I know it sounds ridiculous but I'm really wondering

I'm not 100% sure about this, but looking at a Panzerfaust schematic and operating instructions, I can't find any indication that it had an "in flight" arming mechanism as some modern munitions do. So as far as I can tell, the warhead was live as soon as the operator made the final preparations to fire.

However, it did use a free-moving anvil type inertial fuse, so regardless it was probably designed to require a pretty firm shock to detonate. You'd have to throw it pretty hard to reliably set off the charge on impact.

I do know that the above was definitely true of the bazooka round -- the rocket warhead was live as soon as the safety pin was removed. Theoretically, throwing a bazooka round at a target would work. U.S. Army training manuals even describe how bazooka rockets could be used as improvised landmines by removing the safety pin an burying them in the ground, nose-up.

[Georgie]

An easy way to get info on the Eastern Front or the Western Front weaponry would be to buy a copy of Barbarossa to Berlin or CMBO or CMAK. Maybe BF won't have the same weaponry in its new Eastern Front game but it will probably be very close. Not only can you find out the weapons used but also the month and year that they became available. You will have to go into the editor to do this but the editors are very user friendly. You also will be able to find out the armor thickness of various AFVs and the penetration capability of their guns. There will probably be some differences in the new games but you can certainly get an idea of which tanks to steer clear of with your tank. You can do the same thing with infantry squads. Select the squad in the editor and then select "Map" and click on the squad that is on the map and then hit "enter" and the weapons of the squad will be displayed. These editors are like interactive weapons encyclopedias.

[Sublime]

The watch taking is definitely credible. Nearly every Ost Front account I've read mentions the Red Army troops stealing watches. In fact they stole everything they could that wasn't bolted down, and not just them, you could say that about any army. But especially the Soviets and Germans, more so as they were expected to more or less live off the land.

Even with say the US Army looting and pillaging were rife, and you can even see plenty of references to Allied troops stealing watches from Germans in the West. In North Africa for example, one Brit said they'd guess enemy casualties by adding up how many watches all the Gurkhas had on their arms...

[agusto]

Something a little off topic but there is a question that has been on my mind for some time.

If a Panzerfaust failed to launch or you just wanted to look cool, could you actually throw it like a spear?

I know it sounds ridiculous but I'm really wondering

The germans had a purpose-built throwen version of the Panezrfaust, the Panzerwurfmine or PWM (litterally "throwen anti-tank mine"):

[agusto]

[Rokko]

Yeah but with a Panzerfaust it would actually look like throwing a spear

I remember this movie that is set during the ACW (its more a love film but with a historic background) and in the Battle of Crater scene you see an Indian Confederate soldier throwing a musket with a bayonett like a spear into the crater, so I always wonder what it would look like throwing a Panzerfaust like that and how well it would fly.

[Sublime]

I wish the PWM/Heftholadung/and grenade bundles were modelled, especiialy in FI - it would help the Axis infantry AT quite a bit... This may become much more important in the Ost Front too. Even if they were just represented in the unit's equipment panel, and in having it that team or squad would have much higher chance of killing or disabling tank when it close attacks it...

[Michael Emrys]

The watch taking is definitely credible. Nearly every Ost Front account I've read mentions the Red Army troops stealing watches. In fact they stole everything they could that wasn't bolted down, and not just them, you could say that about any army.

That's the bottom line. Surrendering soldiers were searched and not only valuables like watches removed, but any official-looking papers, diaries, or other written correspondence that might yield useful intelligence. Medals, badges, or anything else that could be rendered into souvenirs would also be lifted.

Michael

[Sublime]

Yes quite. And the Germans knew the American propensity for souveneirs especially and booby trapped all sorts of juicy looking items. Americans prized Japanese body parts, gold teeth, swords, any type of weapon, etc. Same with German Hitler Youth or SS daggers, etc. Coal scuttle helmets not as much, maybe too bulky... This isn't a WW2 thing either, happened in Vietnam, happened in Korea, and probably every other war as well. And of course you hear contrary stories as well - I just read an account of German troops berating and threatening Italians who had just looted American prisoners in N. Africa and forced the Italians to give the Americans their watches and rings, etc. back. There's other examples of this as well, but it's usually more of a sign of respect or treatment of officers type thing, not disapproval so much of looting, liberating, whatever you want to call it. Anyway considering your opponent that you just captured or killed to loot in the first place was also trying to kill you, having your wristwatch taken is probably the least of your worries. I know if I was a Landser who had just been successfully captured - I stress successfully because you could easily just be shot in those first few seconds - I'd be glad to be alive for the moment. War is not a nice thing, and being captured is not a nice experience. Besides being killed, many others are tortured, beaten, etc.

[agusto]

Rokko,

Just in case you are interested:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/MISC/Ultra%20Close%20Killing%20Of%20Tanks/lung.jpg

This concept probably comes closest to an "anti-tank spear".

[Macisle]

...but it's usually more of a sign of respect or treatment of officers type thing....

This reminds me of a story.

Back in college, I worked with a woman whose late husband was a German pilot during the war. He was shot down and captured by the Americans. Being a sharp guy and a go-getter, he managed to get himself a gig serving soldiers at a bar (I guess they had one where he was and allowed POWs to work there).

Well, with most of the drinkers being American (tip culture) and with his sharp mind and whatever business opportunities his job and access to stock gave him, he was actually building up quite a little nest egg.

Then one day, a group of British officers came to drink and, upon discovering that he was an officer, raised holy-hell that an officer (even an enemy officer) was being "forced" to serve enlisted men, and got him fired (liberated from humiliation in their minds).

He was absolutely livid, but there was nothing he could do. They blew it for him.

Cool story, huh.

[Michael Emrys]

Rokko,

Just in case you are interested:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/MISC/Ultra%20Close%20Killing%20Of%20Tanks/lung.jpg

This concept probably comes closest to an "anti-tank spear".

If you really want to get into suicide mines, the Japanese had a doozy. they would dig a camouflaged pit on a trail that they expected tanks to take. Then a guy would climb in with a bomb or large (say 150 mm or larger) artillery shell and a hammer. When a tank drove over him, he was supposed to strike the fuse on the bomb/shell with the hammer and blow the tank up. Not sure how well this worked out in practice.

Michael

[Apocal]

Thanks for all the posts. Do you guys know any reasonable online sources I could peek through that would give me a good overview of this kind of stuff for the Red Army? The whole internet is awash in stuff about American, British and German forces, but relatively little on how the Red Army fought, as opposed to what they brought.

[Lanzfeld]

Thanks for all the posts. Do you guys know any reasonable online sources I could peek through that would give me a good overview of this kind of stuff for the Red Army? The whole internet is awash in stuff about American, British and German forces, but relatively little on how the Red Army fought, as opposed to what they brought.

Go to the shore and watch the waves collide with the beach over and over and over. Thats how they fought.

[baron Jacquinot]

Yet they also couldn't break and run, since they had as much to fear in punishment from their own side as from the enemy.

Which raises a good CM question: What would be the best way to set the "soft factors" to represent the typical Red Army soldier of WW II (yes, I realize there's no such thing and it depends on the time/place/unit and whether it might have been a Guards formation or rifle troops, etc.)?

I'm imagining troops that have low training, little experience, little initiative, not particularly well skilled, but also very stubbornly persistent in combat and much more likely to fight/die in place than rout.

How would one represent that in game, since it would seem that very poor motivation doesn't usually equal high staying power?

Stop talk bull**** about soviet soldiers! Soviet soldiers was trained enough and have high motivation to protect their homeland, Red army has problems with officers because many of them was executed. What you know about Russia and Russian soldiers? Who say that behind all Russian soldiers was NKVD mans with machineguns? Hollywood?

Go watch your stupid yankee movies!

[Karabekian]

Lots of ATR's, though, and used throughout the war. Many anecdotes from panzer commanders about vision block damage from them. As well as used against softer vehicles, of course.

And almost everything up to and including Panther weight was up armored to protect against them.

Stop talk bull**** about soviet soldiers! Soviet soldiers was trained enough and have high motivation to protect their homeland, Red army has problems with officers because many of them was executed. What you know about Russia and Russian soldiers? Who say that behind all Russian soldiers was NKVD mans with machineguns? Hollywood?

Go watch your stupid yankee movies!

I would agree if you did not make such a inconsiderate post. While it is true many (westerners) have a very flawed view on the Soviet people and the Soviet Union in general. But, In no way are these stereotypes grown out of thin air. Just as stupid it is to generalize that Soviets were peasants running in human waves with machine guns at their back, is it to say they did not. At times the Soviets quite seriously lacked common sense, or any sense at all. Not to mention the totalitarian state itself.

[Broadsword56]

No offense intended, Baron. I'm sure the forum will benefit from the insights of real Russians once we in the West are playing CM on the Eastern Front. But the question I posed still remains. How would you set the soft factors to represent a Soviet soldier, and might there be any differences -- on average -- from the way the ratings might be set for Germans in that period?

[Barkhorn1x]

I remember this movie that is set during the ACW (its more a love film but with a historic background) and in the Battle of Crater scene you see an Indian Confederate soldier throwing a musket with a bayonett like a spear into the crater, so I always wonder what it would look like throwing a Panzerfaust like that and how well it would fly.

"Cold Mountain". Pretty good movie actually if one makes allowances for all that drama. Great Battle of the Crater recreation.

[$Pec5]

No offense intended, Baron. I'm sure the forum will benefit from the insights of real Russians once we in the West are playing CM on the Eastern Front. But the question I posed still remains. How would you set the soft factors to represent a Soviet soldier, and might there be any differences -- on average -- from the way the ratings might be set for Germans in that period?

If I recall correctly in CMBB there was a soviet order called "human wave." The Soviets, after being ordered to perform a human wave, would yell "hurraahhhh" while charging (with little concern for self preservation) wherever you ordered them to charge. Regradless of troop soft factors, they would charge.

Perhaps this order will be available in the new Bagration game. I do not know how prevalent a Soviet tactic this was in 1944...it seems as if infantry tactics were a little more refined by that period in the war, but if it was in the new game it would be able to simulate a Soviet soldier's combination of poor training with high esprit de corps.

[$Pec5]

No offense intended, Baron. I'm sure the forum will benefit from the insights of real Russians once we in the West are playing CM on the Eastern Front. But the question I posed still remains. How would you set the soft factors to represent a Soviet soldier, and might there be any differences -- on average -- from the way the ratings might be set for Germans in that period?

I forgot to add this as well:

Of course this is just speculation at this point, but perhaps a soviet soldier would generally have a higher motivation ranking compared with allied or german forces experienced in CMBN or CMFI.

The higher a troop's motivation is, the less likely he is to consider self-preservation into his actions i.e. surrender or route when clearly overwhelmed. I would imagine that Soviets, regardless of combat experience, would have a higher motivation ranking in general compared to the german forces in Bagration...who knows, though.

[Broadsword56]

So, if you wanted something that would enable human wave-style behavior, maybe something like:

Experience = Conscript

Motivation = Fanatic

Leadership = -2

Fitness = Fit