Off-Topic: TMA Soviet Infantry

[Apocal]

Just to preface this, I don't know nearly as much about the East Front as I do other areas of the war, so please bear with me.

In the context of CM, how did Soviet infantry differ from German or American infantry during WW2? What considerations did they bring in terms of company and platoon level formations that your average west front focused American would mis-interpret or ignore? Did they have any glaring equipment issues? Did they have any bright spots? Finally, what kind of support would your typical attacking Soviet rifle company have attached to them?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Did they have any glaring equipment issues?

They lacked watches. One of the first things Soviets did when they captured Germans was take all the watches.

[silverstars]

For the russian stuff I can't really expound too much since I learned all this stuff from CMBB, which was a WHILE ago. But one thing I do remember were special assault platoons universally equipped with ppsh-41 sub-machine guns. And with 1:1 modelling of the infantry, I cannot wait to play with them. Considering the effect MP-40s have in CMBN now, those guys are going to be RUTHLESS.

Edit: Make that SMG COMPANIES. I could use those in the Hedgerows....

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Soviet Infantry don´t have personal anti tank weapons like panzerfausts, panzerschrecks or bazookas. So, they neary can´t harm tanks expect they can throw some Molotov cocktail at extrem short distances or use anti-tank rifles for less armored vehicles.

Or some other unit must do this job. T-34, IL-2, Katyusha, AT-Gun...

[Michael Emrys]

Soviet Infantry don´t have personal anti tank weapons like panzerfausts, panzerschrecks or bazookas.

They did have some AT grenades. You'd have to be pretty brave or pretty desperate to get in close enough to use them, but that was the same in every army that had an equivalent weapon, and most armies did.

Michael

[c3k]

Lots of ATR's, though, and used throughout the war. Many anecdotes from panzer commanders about vision block damage from them. As well as used against softer vehicles, of course.

[baron Jacquinot]

They lacked watches. One of the first things Soviets did when they captured Germans was take all the watches.

You can see many prewar and war photos, all Soviet officers have watches. How you can coordinate your manoeuvres without watches, its bull**** like - all Russians drink vodka, bears walking on the streets, Russians is mongoloid race, etc!

[Waffen_PL]

Soviet Infantry don´t have personal anti tank weapons like panzerfausts, panzerschrecks or bazookas. So, they neary can´t harm tanks expect they can throw some Molotov cocktail at extrem short distances or use anti-tank rifles for less armored vehicles.

They had this:

(...) its bull**** like - all Russians drink vodka, bears walking on the streets, Russians is mongoloid race, etc!

[Vanir Ausf B]

You can see many prewar and war photos, all Soviet officers have watches. How you can coordinate your manoeuvres without watches, its bull**** like - all Russians drink vodka, bears walking on the streets, Russians is mongoloid race, etc!

The surrendered men drew nearer. I ordered: "Waffe hinlegen! [Drop your weapons!]"

The Germans laid their rifles and submachine-guns on the ground.

"Werhat die Uhr? [Who has watches?]" I asked, knowing that the rear-echelon men would snatch them anyway, and it would be better if we took them -- we really needed them.

-- Vasiliy Krysov, Panzer Destroyer, pg 89

[baron Jacquinot]

Just to preface this, I don't know nearly as much about the East Front as I do other areas of the war, so please bear with me.

In the context of CM, how did Soviet infantry differ from German or American infantry during WW2? What considerations did they bring in terms of company and platoon level formations that your average west front focused American would mis-interpret or ignore? Did they have any glaring equipment issues? Did they have any bright spots? Finally, what kind of support would your typical attacking Soviet rifle company have attached to them?

The staffing strength of the standart infantry division of the USSR on 22 June 1941 -

personnel - 14483

rifles and carbines-10420

machineguns-166

light machine-guns-192

anti-aircraft guns-33

submachine guns-1204

guns-144

mortars-66

cars-558

horses-3039

armored vehicles-13

tanks-16

tractor-99

[baron Jacquinot]

The surrendered men drew nearer. I ordered: "Waffe hinlegen! [Drop your weapons!]"

The Germans laid their rifles and submachine-guns on the ground.

"Werhat die Uhr? [Who has watches?]" I asked, knowing that the rear-echelon men would snatch them anyway, and it would be better if we took them -- we really needed them.

-- Vasiliy Krysov, Panzer Destroyer, pg 89

Maybe Vasiliy Krysov lost his watch and personaly needed the watch, but he can't answer at all Red army. Red army it is not bunch of clowns gathered to fight without watches!

[baron Jacquinot]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Maybe Vasiliy Krysov lost his watch and personaly needed the watch, but he can't answer at all Red army.

I'm sure there were watches in the Red Army, but perhaps not as many as needed. He did say "we" needed them, not "I". Given the massive casualties I'm sure a lot of watches were lost along with their owners, and maybe manufacturing watches was not a State priority during the war.

Red army it is not bunch of clowns gathered to fight without watches!

[baron Jacquinot]

I'm sure there were watches in the Red Army, but perhaps not as many as needed. He did say "we" needed them, not "I".

"We needed them", who we? Maybe he and his 2 friends who served with him, how he can say for all army! How you can to obey order attack at 7.00 if you don't have watch? You will be ask Germans? - Hey I need attack at 7.00, what time is it now? All officers must have watch to do they job!

[Barkhorn1x]

"We needed them", who we? Maybe he and his 2 friends who served with him, how he can say for all army! How you can to obey order attack at 7.00 if you don't have watch? You will be ask Germans? - Hey I need attack at 7.00, what time is it now? All officers must have watch to do they job!

Radios were scarce but watches plentiful. Hmmm...could be I guess.

[YankeeDog]

This is a complex topic, and it’s difficult to give simple answers as the facts vary considerably depending especially on what time period of the war you’re talking about and exactly what formation you’re looking at (“straight leg” infantry, armored infantry, etc.). The Soviet forces that stormed Berlin in 1945 were a far cry from the forces that could barely defeat the Finns in 1939 despite a massive men and materiel advantage.

To give you a taste, here’s an overview of the “straight leg” rifle infantry company in 1944, -- I suspect you’re asking to prepare yourself for the release of the first CMx2 East Front game, which will be focused around 1944/Bagration, so this is as good a place to start as any.

The Red Army “straight leg” infantry company TOEs in use in 1944 are fairly similar to those of the ETO combatants. The rifle squad typically has 9 men, led by an NCO. In some TOEs, there are 4 rifle squads/platoon rather than the more typical 3, but 3 platoons/company seems to have been pretty standard by 1944. Rifle platoons typically do not have attached heavy weapons teams (MMGs or mortars), but depending on specific TOE, there is often an MMG or two, and/or 50mm mortars organized at the company level. This modest allotment of heavy weapons is usually not organized into a separate “Heavy Weapons Platoon” as you see in the American infantry company, though. Officially, the Company-level 50mm mortar was phased out by 1944, but it seems that some formations were still carrying the 50mm mortars well into 1944.

So the rifle company was light on organic heavy weapons. However, there were plenty of heavier weapons organized at the battalion and regiment level, which could be assigned to the rifle companies as needed – MMGs, the aforementioned anti-tank rifles, 82mm mortars, field guns and anti-tank guns. As noted previously, the Soviets lacked anything like the Bazooka, PIAT, or Panzershreck and by 1944 the AT rifles were pretty much obsolete for use against medium or heavy tanks, though the AT rifles were certainly still useful against light armor and probably targets like infantry holed up in bunkers or heavy buildings.

For indirect support, the infantry company could call on 82mm mortars from battalion, 76mm infantry guns and 120mm mortars from regiment, and lots of bigger stuff higher up. In general, Soviet forces had far fewer radios and trained personnel needed to calculate artillery firing solutions “on the fly”, so artillery was much more of a pre-planned affair than with the ETO combatants. It would be rare for a Soviet infantry company commander to be able to quickly call in regimental or divisional-level support, as an American or British Commander can do in CMBN. To compensate for this, the Soviets often pushed assets like infantry guns, AT guns, and medium mortars forward to positions where they could provide direct-lay support (in CM terms, “on map” assets). By 1944, the Soviets also had large numbers of armored self-propelled guns, ranging from the Su-76 to the ISU-152. One of the primary missions of these AFVs was to provide direct fire HE support in order to compensate for the lack of responsive heavy artillery support.

Anyway, hope this gets you started. I have the excellent Zaloga/Ness Red Army Handbook 1939-1945 sitting on my desk; it’s an excellent summary work and I highly recommend it if you want to do further reading.

[baron Jacquinot]

As noted previously, the Soviets lacked anything like the Bazooka, PIAT, or Panzershreck and by 1944 the AT rifles were pretty much obsolete for use against medium or heavy tanks, though the AT rifles were certainly still useful against light armor and probably targets like infantry holed up in bunkers or heavy buildings.

But I know Red army use captured panzerfaust to storm buildings, I think they must be include in game to soviet platoons.

[YankeeDog]

But I know Red army use captured panzerfaust to storm buildings, I think they must be include in game to soviet platoons.

Yes; by late 1944 captured Panzerfausts seem to have been a fairly common accessory to the standard Red Army attire. Worth noting that there were certain Allied formations in the ETO, such as the American 81st Airborne Division, that also seem to have made this a practice.

As you also indicate, by the time the Red Army started capturing significant numbers of Panzerfaust, German heavy armor was becoming increasingly rare, so the captured Panzerfausts were probably more often used against bunkers and fortified buildings than German tanks.

[agusto]

baron Jacquinot,

I almost get the feeling you are taking this personal - you shouldnt, IMO, because i doubt it is meant to be personal.

Besides, watches can also be of purpose for NCOs, scouts or snipers for example, basically every unit that has to operate seperated from its officers for a certain amount of time. So even if all soviet officers were equiped with watches, the soviet army could still use the additional captured german watches. It might also be a purposeful action to take away the POWs watches in order to decrease their ability to coordinated "attacks" or any other form of coordinated resistance.

After all, i think stories of red army members taking away their german prisioners watches are credible.

[poesel]

I don't know if the Red Army lacked watches but a watch is definitely something of high value that you can easily bring home and sell. That should be enough of a motivation to confiscate any and all watches in reach.

[arpella72]

Soviet Infantry don´t have personal anti tank weapons like panzerfausts, panzerschrecks or bazookas. So, they neary can´t harm tanks expect they can throw some Molotov cocktail at extrem short distances or use anti-tank rifles for less armored vehicles.

Or some other unit must do this job. T-34, IL-2, Katyusha, AT-Gun...

I used to play Theatre of War and soviet troops used the RPG-40 and 43 AT grenades that were quiet effective(at least in the game) but a very short range of course.I think the modern Rusian Army is using a modern version of them.If the Eastern Front game is ever released I wish they'll take this in account.

http://pictures2.todocoleccion.net/tc/2012/01/25/30170349.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/1191/rpgtn6.jpg

[YankeeDog]

The later war Soviet hand-thrown AT grenades, the RPG-43 and RPG-6, were probably effective enough if infantry could actually get close enough to a tank to land a good hit. But they weighed over a kg. each, so they were difficult to throw very far, and they sometimes failed to detonate on a hit, especially if they struck the armor plate at an angle.

Overall, I wouldn't count on them to be much more than a desperation weapon in CMx2. Unless your opponent is really careless with his armor, your infantry will probably get shredded before they get close enough to use such a weapon.

[womble]

The later war Soviet hand-thrown AT grenades, the RPG-43 and RPG-6, were probably effective enough if infantry could actually get close enough to a tank to land a good hit. But they weighed over a kg. each, so they were difficult to throw very far, and they sometimes failed to detonate on a hit, especially if they struck the armor plate at an angle.

Overall, I wouldn't count on them to be much more than a desperation weapon in CMx2. Unless your opponent is really careless with his armor, your infantry will probably get shredded before they get close enough to use such a weapon.

Sounds like representing those systems won't need any more than the current "Close Assault" mechanism, really.

Operating with Axis troops in (pre-infantry AT launcher) Sicily in FI gives you a taste of just how nail-biting it is to face armour with infantry, especially when your ATG is as rubbish as the Italian 47mm... Of course, it's pretty tense with just fausts/zooks and shrecks, but when all they have is a tin opener, a broken hacksaw blade and a damp firecracker (with only one match) it's a whole new level of pucker...

[baron Jacquinot]

I don't know if the Red Army lacked watches but a watch is definitely something of high value that you can easily bring home and sell. That should be enough of a motivation to confiscate any and all watches in reach.

I think you right, Russia was ruined by Germans and any articles of prime necessity was immediate confiscate.

[YankeeDog]

Sounds like representing those systems won't need any more than the current "Close Assault" mechanism, really.

Yes; the current Close Assault mechanism should work fairly well to model hand-thrown AT weapons like the RPG-43 & RPG-6, and also others like the German Panzerwurfmine (which generally disappears by mid-war in favor of the Panzerfaust).

Overall I'd expect units armed with such weapons to be a little more effective at close assaulting than units armed with just generic demo charges, but not by a whole heck of a lot.