Infantry TacAI response to incoming fire while moving?

[Lt Bull]

Hello

I have only recently gotten back in to playing CMBN and would like some comment on what I believe is perhaps an unrealistic TacAI response for infantry when they come under fire for moving. My experiences are only via WEGO gameplay.

Compared to the TacAI response of moving infantry that come under fire in CMx1 under similar circumstances., the response I see in CMBN seems less realistic/favourable.

Most of what I am referring to relates to situations in the game where infantry is being used to scout/approach/draw fire from suspected enemy positions. These units are typically very vulnerable. What you hope they do (or what you hope the game will allow you to do) is the following:

• draw fire from as yet un-revealed enemy positions
  
• minimise any loses/danger to themselves when they actually do come under fire.
  

The typical orders available to use on infantry under these circumstances is "MOVE" or "HUNT". I tend to only use "HUNT" if I am certain contact with the enemy is imminent (within a turn or two as it is too slow and tiring for infantry units to use over extended periods of time). The MOVE command is a more "economical" way of scouting for enemy positions for extend periods of time, and my comments mainly relate to infantry in these circumstances that are following MOVE orders.

Typically when an infantry unit is being used to scout for enemy positions, any enemy fire they receive is almost always going to be coming from in front of the unit, such that any further progression in the direction of travel will most likely DECREASE the range between it and the enemy fire, consequently placing the unit in even more danger, something you do not want.

In CMBN however, if you give a MOVE order to a unit, it's as if the order to MOVE to a waypoint is interpreted as "I don't care if you get fired on, ignore self preservation, try to out run the gunfire, you must do what you can to reach your way point at all costs!" rather than "MOVE towards that waypoint but hit the dirt/find immediate cover/reassess the situation if you take fire (from unrevealed locations)" which as far as I am concerned is closer to the SOP for most infantry not engaged in a "charge" or "assault". In CMBN, infantry just seem too hell bent of getting to waypoints when coming under fire, by breaking in to a sprint, rather than considering courses of action that limit their exposure to further fire.

In CMX1, infantry would often immediately "hit the dirt" if under fire and seek local cover by crawling, abandoning their current MOVE order. The "MOVE TO CONTACT" order was great for this.

So is the MOVE TO CONTACT order an obviously missed order for CMBN, because the modus operandi of using infantry scout units that come under fire is to just to break in to a sprint towards the next waypoint, closer to the enemy, and towards death rather than think of finding cover/reassessment/self preservation.

Comments?

Bull

[Erwin]

MOVE is only safe to use when you are sure there is no enemy with LOS to the route.

HUNT has replaced MOVE TO CONTACT but has about the same effect.

I do find that even with HUNT, when fired upon, the unit will hit the dirt, but can still be fired on and often takes casualties. It's safer to use a HIDE command at the same time. But, since that means the recon unit won't be able to see anything, you need another unit a few meters behind it to (hopefully) actually spot where the fire is coming from.

[Michael Emrys]

I think this is an area of the game that definitely needs more work. The default first reaction of troops that are upright while moving or for any other reason, should be when fired on to drop to the ground and get as low as possible. (The definition of "when fired on" is a bit tricky. As a first approximation I would suggest something like "when bullets pass within one AS of the unit in question or when a fragmenting explosion occurs within half the defined danger close range for that type of shell".) It should be possible to tweak how quickly the unit makes that response depending on its experience level and how tired or alert it is.

Michael

[womble]

Don't use Move. Move is not the default movement mode for pTruppen. Quick serves that purpose. For normally-loaded infantry on most BN maps, it's faster overall to Quick them til they're Tiring or Tired and wait for them to recover to Rested than it is to Move them the same distance, and you'll have your troops in situ much sooner.

If you're sending out decoys, have them move at "Quick" for short bounds, with decent pauses (10s or so) at each waypoint. They won't get as far, but they'll be seeking cover and concealment every few seconds and if they're crossing open ground will be almost as visible, effectively, to the enemy, so they'll do the job you want. Quick also allows them to react better to incoming fire, to supplement their directed behaviour.

[Apocal]

I don't understand why HUNT makes them tired.

[WinOrLose]

The other problem with hunt is even if they spot an enemy that poses no threat they stop and hit the deck.

[Bastables]

I don't understand why HUNT makes them tired.

Try walking with weapon at the shoulder scanning for targets, while watching the squad/section members for spacing and ones own footing. Then do the same walking behind another man with the weapon at the hip/slung while only peripherally noting the man in front in order to follow him.

Compare if having the weapon in a stress position while concentrating is more tiring than just following the chap in front at a normal walk.

[George MC]

I use quick (movement point placed at each action point) with a 10s pause at each action point. When I know I'm going to make contact I split of a scout team and use hunt with hide attached.

Advancing to contact I use the above but have the pauses further spaced BUT this is happening behind a scout screen. I'm hoping that the scouts draw the fire but the follow on units are just close enough to a/ at least get a sound contact b/ even better engage the enemy. I'm not sure we need more commands IMO.

[SlowMotion]

I agree with LtBull. It would be much easier to plot longer movements if one could tell "walk towards this point and if enemy starts firing, hit the ground. I will then think what to do during next turn". I use Quick when I think a unit should move to some place quickly, even if enemy keeps firing. Move would be so much more useful if it could be used for these longer movements, especially in the beginning of the game. Units wouldn't get tired, but the player would know that AI has enough sense to seek cover instead of getting everyone killed.

[Michael Emrys]

I don't understand why HUNT makes them tired.

They are walking in a hunched over posture. This isn't what our bodies are evolved to do for long stretches of time. It beats getting shot, but it is wearisome.

Michael

[Apocal]

Try walking with weapon at the shoulder scanning for targets, while watching the squad/section members for spacing and ones own footing. Then do the same walking behind another man with the weapon at the hip/slung while only peripherally noting the man in front in order to follow him.

Compare if having the weapon in a stress position while concentrating is more tiring than just following the chap in front at a normal walk.

Yeah, it's certainly more effort, but I'm not going get tired doing it.

[permanent666]

i use quick combined with short hunt commands in between

[Lt Bull]

Womble, you indicate that perhaps the QUICK command could be used for this purpose. I can't see how that can work. As scouts, I want a balance of:

• moving at a reasonable speed
  
• maximizing their ability to SPOT/DETECT/LOCATE/IDENTIFY enemies/enemy fire while they moving, essentially thier SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
  
• decreasing their own exposure and ability to be spotted by the enemy
  

The QUICK command overdoes the first requirement while significantly taking from the other two. I assume the game mechanics stay true to the reality that the slower a unit moves (assuming an upright posture) the more likely it is going to detect enemy positions/enemy fire during contact.

While using some units as "bait" and issuing them QUICK commands while others observe seems like some kind of work around, it still is not the way units assigned as scouts are really meant to work. In most case they are the only eyes out there at the time.

I agree with Michael:

I think this is an area of the game that definitely needs more work. The default first reaction of troops that are upright while moving or for any other reason, should be when fired on to drop to the ground and get as low as possible

It seems so obvious but this reaction does not seem to apply to units given basic "non-assault" posture type move orders. The overriding reaction is "don't find cover, start running to the next waypoint even if it is closer to the enemy and in terrain more exposed than the one you are currently in".

And this by SlowMotion

It would be much easier to plot longer movements if one could tell "walk towards this point and if enemy starts firing, hit the ground. I will then think what to do during next turn". I use Quick when I think a unit should move to some place quickly, even if enemy keeps firing. Move would be so much more useful if it could be used for these longer movements, especially in the beginning of the game. Units wouldn't get tired, but the player would know that AI has enough sense to seek cover instead of getting everyone killed.

I really do think the game could all do with a tweak to address these issues.

I am aware however that in Real Time game play perhaps having less intelligent TacAI behaviour is not so much an issue as it may be in WEGO because a fast reacting player can always issue their own new orders whenever they feel like, unlike in WEGO.

Now I have just conducted a "speed test" to get an idea for the relative speeds of the HUNT, MOVE and QUICK commands and I must say that I am kinda pleasantly surprised/shocked.

To my total surprise, the HUNT order for infantry is FASTER than the MOVE command by about 29%!! Is this news to anyone else? I have only tested across open ground. The QUICK command is about 188% faster than MOVE, 123% faster than HUNT.

[SlowMotion]

i use quick combined with short hunt commands in between

The problem with that approach is that plotting those short commands takes a very long time. Compare it to plotting a single Move command, say 400m long and AI would know to stop moving and seek cover when enemy begins firing.

And even though I prefer Wego, having smarter AI would be especially beneficial in RT mode where you can't observe all parts of the map all the time. A smart AI could handle things on its own for few minutes. Now Move gets them killed.

[Tarquelne]

I agree with LtBull. It would be much easier to plot longer movements if one could tell "walk towards this point and if enemy starts firing, hit the ground.

I think that'd be good - like HUNT in speed and hit-the-dirt-ness. But like MOVE in unwillingness to fire/return fire and fatigue. Or, essentially, like MOVE is currently but remove the zombie-like willingness to march calmly into fire.

OTOH, MOVE is fairly useful for vehicles. I like having a command that moves them along at a decent pace but allows them better maneuverability than QUICK, and yet doesn't leave them likely to stop.

[womble]

Womble, you indicate that perhaps the QUICK command could be used for this purpose. I can't see how that can work. As scouts, I want a balance of:

• moving at a reasonable speed
  
• maximizing their ability to SPOT/DETECT/LOCATE/IDENTIFY enemies/enemy fire while they moving, essentially thier SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
  
• decreasing their own exposure and ability to be spotted by the enemy
  

The QUICK command overdoes the first requirement while significantly taking from the other two. I assume the game mechanics stay true to the reality that the slower a unit moves (assuming an upright posture) the more likely it is going to detect enemy positions/enemy fire during contact.

Well you'd be assuming wrong then. "Move" drops situational awareness in the can and flushes it. The reason for the halts is to allow the scouts to scan around and actually see stuff, as well as stopping them haring off into the distance. It also gives them a chance to get Pinned in place (i.e. dropped to the floor and looking for cover) or to return fire more effectively if the threat is weak enough not to pin them.

The reason that Move does this is because it's assumed it will only be used when there are no enemy to see. It's a "marching order" not a "combat order".

While using some units as "bait" and issuing them QUICK commands while others observe seems like some kind of work around, it still is not the way units assigned as scouts are really meant to work. In most case they are the only eyes out there at the time.

It is, sometimes. Sometimes you have to tell some sucker to, "Head that way til you get shot, then report back," to paraphrase one George S Patton.

If you want Scouts to move, try and move them unseen. If they have to cross open ground, well that's a lottery and you're rolling the dice whatever movement mode you give them, but be aware that if you don't have other eyes, even if your scouts do dive for cover, they're not going to be seeing very much and unless there's help on the way are liable to get pinned and killed without telling you much more than you guessed.

[George MC]

Yeah, it's certainly more effort, but I'm not going get tired doing it.

you're a machine then mate. I spend a lot of my time (both professional and personal) walking in the hills. being forced to move at a pace not your own is tiring. We like to stride out at our own pace/length of stride. Constrain that and it gets tiring. I can only imagine what being forced to carry several kgs of metalwork in a stress position then does to that...

[Bastables]

Yeah, it's certainly more effort, but I'm not going get tired doing it.

Must be why on operations foot patrols are conducted scanning down scope all the time /sarcasm. Hint they're not even with contemporary carbines and bulpups (much lighter) infantry will walk about on patrol with rifles at hip, one handed, three point slung, or single/double arm cradle.

Because "more effort" is always more tiring than "less effort."

[Michael Emrys]

The reason that Move does this is because it's assumed it will only be used when there are no enemy to see. It's a "marching order" not a "combat order".

Okay, fine. But then we need an additional order—call it Advance—that moves at the same pace as Move, does not quickly tire the troops, and allows them to maintain situational awareness.

Michael

[Apocal]

Must be why on operations foot patrols are conducted scanning down scope all the time /sarcasm. Hint they're not even with contemporary carbines and bulpups (much lighter) infantry will walk about on patrol with rifles at hip, one handed, three point slung, or single/double arm cradle.

Because "more effort" is always more tiring than "less effort."

It's not happening on a timespan of hours like a typical dismount patrol; they get tired after only minutes of HUNT. I don't equate "tired" with something like "my arms hurt", I imagine it's wheezing for breathe from exertion.

I've never been wheezing for breathe just holding my personal weapon at the ready, while crouched in an uncomfortable position.

you're a machine then mate. I spend a lot of my time (both professional and personal) walking in the hills. being forced to move at a pace not your own is tiring. We like to stride out at our own pace/length of stride. Constrain that and it gets tiring.

I was in decent, if average, shape. Or rather, was, when I was actually active duty. I never stood out for my physical prowess, but I never fell out on humps either.

I can only imagine what being forced to carry several kgs of metalwork in a stress position then does to that...

It sucks, but it's nothing like running around, climbing over walls, etc. in all that ****.

[womble]

It's not happening on a timespan of hours like a typical dismount patrol; they get tired after only minutes of HUNT. I don't equate "tired" with something like "my arms hurt", I imagine it's wheezing for breathe from exertion.

I think it's closer to "my arms hurt". All you're banned from doing at "Tired" is hitting absolute top speed, and that applies all the way through "Fatigued" to "Exhausted" (at which point, Quick becomes banned; I almost never use Hunt, so don't know [if|at what fatigue level] that's banned too, and since my squads are nearly always split, can't comment on Assault, either), IIRC. pTruppen can still travel cover ground at a run with Quick.

After a couple of minutes of house clearance-style tension and awkwardness, I think it's reasonable that you wouldn't be able to instantly hit your best 60 yard dash speed.