Panthers Too Cheap?????

[WynnterGreen]

Hey there.

I just started playing PBEM games with a new group of people, a group that tends to play extremely armour heavy, at least compared to what I'm used to.

It was a Medium Meeting Engagement, my opponent fielded:

Three Panther VG Early and Two Stugs

My Brits took:

Two Sherman 75mm and Two Sherman 76mm

I kept a log of the Armour engagement, as detailed below:

19 x 76mm HITs at Ranges 275m to 659m

4 x 75mm HITs at Ranges 401m to 492m

23 Hits to destroy one Panther.

Not unrealistic, considering the number of hits to the weapon mount and front glacis. Someone with better knowledge might like to speak on this.

You take your shots where you can get em' in a map full of armour, it's not like they're going to willingly present a flank to you very often.

The Panthers made 4 Hits to destroy 2 Shermans, again not unrealistic.

I have no problem with Panthers being hard to kill, chewing up Shermans with their 75s, or even being numerous on the field.

However it seems to me, considering their survivability and the the regularly huge disparity in hit's required per kill, that Panthers are severely under priced for the purposes of force allocation.

3 Sherman 76mm are roughly the same price as 2 Panthers.

It just doesn't stack up to me.

Thoughts????

PANTHER (1) VG Early

76mm > HIT Wheels > 631m

76mm > PENETRATION Weapon mount > 631m

76mm > HIT Weapon Mount > 631m

76mm > PENETRATION Upper Front Hull > 263m

76mm > HIT Upper Front Hull > 275m

76mm > PENETRATION Lower Front Hull > 306m

PANTHER > PENTRATING HIT on Sherman 76mm > Front Hull

76mm > HIT Upper Front Hull > 306

PANTHER DESTROYED > Para Satchel Charge through bocage.

PANTHER (HQ) VG Early

75mm > HIT Lower Front Hull > 401m

75mm > HIT Weapon Mount > 492m

76mm > PARTIAL PENETRATION Front Hull > 341m

PANTHER > PENTRATION on Sherman > Front Hull

75mm > PENETRATION Weapon Mount > 492m

PANTHER > PENETRATION on Sherman DESTROYED.

76mm > HIT Weapon Mount > 432m

76mm > PARTIAL PENETRATION Weapon Mount > 432m

75mm > HIT Front Turret > 360m

76mm > PENETRATION Right Turret > 659m

76mm > PENETRATION Right Turret > 659m PANTHER DESTROYED

PANTHER (2) VG Early

76mm > HIT Forward Top Hull > 359m

76mm > PENETRATION Front Turret > 359m

76mm > HIT Forward Top Hull > 382m

76mm > HIT Weapon Mount > 382m

76mm > PENTRATION Weapon Mount > 388m

76mm > HIT Forward Front Hull > 388m

76mm > PENETRATION Front Turret > 395m

PANTHER > PENETRATION on Sherman 76mm DESTROYED.

PANTHER DESTROYED > Para Satchel Charge in forest.

Both Stugs were destroyed by immobilization by heavy 81mm Mortar barrage then Para infantry assault through smoke.

[womble]

3 Sherman 76mm are roughly the same price as 2 Panthers.

It just doesn't stack up to me.

That seems just about right to me. The Shermans are going to have to work for their pussy, but given all the other things that tanks do, and the threats they have to deal with, it's about right. The points system has to deal with matchups that aren't just tank v tank.

[Amizaur]

Most Panther crews would abandon their tanks after first penetration they got. So, those duels should end after first serious penetration done to Panthers. The outcomes would be little different and more realistic then.

They could stay inside and fight if they were extremely well motivated, or if it was a partial penetration only or penetration by APDS round that did't do much damage. In other cases - the crew would (most often) get out quickly, and (most often) there would be some casualties after the penetration.

Sherman crews would evacuate from their penetrated tanks even more easily, as if they survived the first penetration, they could be almost sure the second hit would penetrate too and very likely kill them.

Tank crews are showing too little self-preservation instinct IMO. I hope BFC will fine-tune this in next games or patches.

[Baneman]

Most Panther crews would abandon their tanks after first penetration they got. So, those duels should end after first serious penetration done to Panthers. The outcomes would be little different and more realistic then.

They could stay inside and fight if they were extremely well motivated, or if it was a partial penetration only or penetration by APDS round that did't do much damage. In other cases - the crew would (most often) get out quickly, and (most often) there would be some casualties after the penetration.

Sherman crews would evacuate from their penetrated tanks even more easily, as if they survived the first penetration, they could be almost sure the second hit would penetrate too and very likely kill them.

Tank crews are showing too little self-preservation instinct IMO. I hope BFC will fine-tune this in next games or patches.

I've had Panther crew abandon ( and the tank labelled KO'd ) after a Partial Penetration. I could accept the bail, but I wonder just how the partial could destroy the tank - in other battles I've had the main gun, radio, Nahver...thingy and smoke dispensors destroyed and the crew were happy to stay with it.

Personally I've never had a Panther crew stick around for more than 1 penetration, but I've seen numerous Shermans stay and continue to fight after more than 1 ( my record being 5 penetrations on a Sherman without KO'ing it - 6th finally did it - and of those 5, 4 were from a Panther gun, so it wasn't "just barely" penetrating ).

I agree that most of the time, you'd expect a crew to bail after a penetration and maybe go back if it didn't brew-up.

More on topic, I don't think Panthers are too expensive, 3 to 2 seems reasonable when you consider that the Panther was essentially replacing PzIV as the MBT ( even though they never completed the changeover ).

[WynnterGreen]

So do you think my opponent must have had the motivation for his crews dialled right up???? Because all three panthers had multiple full penetration hits without budging the crews.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Definitely. High motivation keeps AFV crews in their vehicle much longer than they should realistically stay.

[Sgt Schultz]

So do you think my opponent must have had the motivation for his crews dialled right up???? Because all three panthers had multiple full penetration hits without budging the crews.

Yep. IMHO, for QBs Vet/High/+1 is the proper setting for armor/vehicle purchases of any type beyond truck.

Some folks place even more faith in armor and go Crack and up the Motivation even more.

Elites are like having Terminator T1s on the field. They see it, target it and kill it in an orderly, proficient, and military manner. Penetrations help vent propellant smoke, and are welcomed for the cool breezes they provide.They are first tanks to bog in wet weather of course.

-

[WynnterGreen]

wow... ok...

I've never taken higher than Veteran, High Motivation.

[noob]

Elites are like having Terminator T1s on the field. They see it, target it and kill it in an orderly, proficient, and military manner. Penetrations help vent propellant smoke, and are welcomed for the cool breezes they provide.They are first tanks to bog in wet weather of course.

LOL.....!!!

[GreenAsJade]

Yep. IMHO, for QBs Vet/High/+1 is the proper setting for armor/vehicle purchases of any type beyond truck.

Some folks place even more faith in armor and go Crack and up the Motivation even more.

Elites are like having Terminator T1s on the field. They see it, target it and kill it in an orderly, proficient, and military manner. Penetrations help vent propellant smoke, and are welcomed for the cool breezes they provide.They are first tanks to bog in wet weather of course.

-

I'm gonna have to go elite, and never play in the rain!

[LukeFF]

Elites are like having Terminator T1s on the field. They see it, target it and kill it in an orderly, proficient, and military manner. Penetrations help vent propellant smoke, and are welcomed for the cool breezes they provide.They are first tanks to bog in wet weather of course.

:D :D

[dieseltaylor]

I was curious o see that the Stugs were immobilised by 3"[81mm] mortar fire. The UK tested Churchills to a 25pdr barrage:

WO 291/399 Casualties to Churchill tanks in 25-pdr concentrations.

A trial conducted in 1943 tested proposed new tactics, whereby Churchills would advance through concentrations of friendly 25-pdr fire, by twice driving a squadron of Churchills through live artillery fire. It is concluded that the worst that can happen to a Churchill in these circumstances is immobilisation. The effect of a 25-pdr round exploding on a Churchill is described thus:

"There is no adverse effect on the crew from a 25 pdr direct hit. Fragments cannot penetrate the tank, and the blast is not at all uncomfortable."

The Churchill is well armoured but a 25pdr has less blast effect than a 81mm but probably flies bigger chunks of metal. In any event neither has any fragmentation effect on 0.5"[12mm] mild steel. Is this uber-mortars again? I am not saying it could never happen rather that a 100% success rate in this battle seems odd. Perhaps more testing is required including how many shells fired.

As noted since CMBN was launched the crew behaviour is positively bizarre when responding to penetrations.

[John Kettler]

Sgt Schulz,

Penetrations help vent propellant smoke, and are welcomed for the cool breezes they provide.

-

Are you taking up Bullethead's mantle? Definitely sig material!

As for your observations, in my experience, if it's the AI's or my live foe's, the AFV will NEVER bog and will be practically or outright unkillable. If I own it, however I came by it, it will Bog, followed by Immobilization and a devastating direct hit. If I have, say, one Jagdpanther in a scenario, without fail it'll find the one soft spot on the entire map, whereupon bad weather and smoke will obscure the tankhunter team, the Naverboogie won't stop said team, and the Hunting Kitty will die. Don't believe me? Ask Jarmo! Any tank of mine hit will, without fail, bail when hit and penetrated, even without a casualty. This is true even for the platoon leader! Happened to me in CMBN. No, not the Demo.

NEVER underestimate Murphy!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Splinty]

The Shermans are going to have to work for their pussy,

Don't we all?

[ZPB II]

Don't we all?

A foreign philosopher once said that when the pussy has to work for you, one will live in a land of cashmoney mountains.

[Splinty]

A foreign philosopher once said that when the pussy has to work for you, one will live in a land of cashmoney mountains.

Or one is a pimp!

[Vanir Ausf B]

If you want somewhat realistic performance of tanks in CMBN you need to set crew Experience level to conscript and Motivation to poor. Cranking them up to create terminators can be fun but you are playing a fantasy game when you do it.

As for pricing, whether or not Panthers are too cheap is debatable, but it is interesting to look at the changes made to AVF pricing from CMx1 to CMBN. There are clearly some winners and losers under the new pricing scheme and Panthers are a clear winner, as are Jagdpanthers.

Unit........... CMBB Price . CMBN Price . % increase

Tiger I ........... 212 ........... 372 ........... 75%

Pz IV H .......... 134 ........... 248 ........... 85%

Jpz IV late ...... 148 ........... 326 .......... 120%

Jagdpanther .... 250 .......... 382 ........... 53%

Stug IIIG late .. 113 .......... 295 .......... 161%

Panther A late . 238 ........... 360 ........... 51%

Sherman 76 .... 147 .......... 257 ............ 75%

Sherman 75 .... 119 .......... 194 ............ 63%

[Amizaur]

I agree that most of the time, you'd expect a crew to bail after a penetration and maybe go back if it didn't brew-up.

And this is how it would work in CMBN, I think.

Crews should quite easily abandon penetrated vehicles (fully penetrated ones), and then - if they survived in good condition and when situation has calmed down (for example other tanks from the platoon eliminated the enemy) - they should go back and continue fighting.

Penetrated tanks - if they didn't catch the fire or don't have some engine/gun damage - should be still ok.

It's far more easy to kill "soft" people inside, than to really make the steel tank mechanisms inoperable.

Remember that in reality (not in CMBN scenatrio) temporary elimination of a single tank - which crew jumped out even after paritial penetration - is not that important, because tanks are not fighting alone - but in a group, or better yet - in lage formations. The crew would calm down and return to vehicle if it is still in working order - and would join the fight.

On the other hand - in CMBN scenario we can be (and I am too!!!) extremaly irritated if one of our few precius tanks (our ONLY tank!!) is eliminated by crew panicking from stupid partial penetration . But it's just reality !!!

And in this reality tank crews tried to fight in a way that the enemy HAD NO CHANCE to hit them at all, because EVERY hit is risky, even with good armor. They set ambushes, flanked the enemy, did everything to have the first and second shot on their side and kill the enemy tank before it even realised where the fire is coming from.

Crews when fighting enemy tanks rarely relied extensively on on superior armor of their tanks - exeptions are Tiger tanks on early eastern front - that felt relatively safe and used armor of Tigers as tactical advantage. Second exeption are desperate battles of heavily outnumbered Panthers or Tigers in late war. But then they HAD TO rely on their armor somewhat and risk taking some hits, becuase this was the only way they could fight numerically superior enemy. Anyway it was very risky and critical damages or (un)lucky penetrations were happening.

A wise tanker would never engage the enemy head-on on equal terms, even in superior tank, if there was any other possiblilty. It's just stupid - if you want to survive the war. It can work few times, but any luck has it's end.

Wise tanker would rather flank the enemy, or fire from an ambush position. Or work out some other advantageous position/situation.

The good armor should be only your insurance that protects you from unexpected threats, or when something in your plan has gone wrong and suddenly you are under enemy fire.