Keeping FO's alive

[Erwin]

On these small maps I have been having a lot of trouble getting FO's into a position where they can 1) see a target that my recon have ID'd, and 2) keep em alive long enuff for the arty to arrive.

It seems that no matter how carefully I SLOW move em into position, the AI seems to be able to spot em with little problem and of course makes em a priority target.

Am sure the problem is with the small maps and/or short LOS distances where one has to get too close to the enemy. But, has anyone found any tricks/techniques to mitigate this?

Am on mission#5 of "Conrath's Counterattack" and the one hour we get isn't much to get full use out of the arty unless one preplots. (And I would have preplotted all the wrong places.)

[eltorrente]

Well, overall it's best to not move them around by themselves where they can attract attention. Anytime I try to sneak an FO to the ultimate spot, he gets spotted because he's the only one who has been seen by certain units that haven't been engaged yet by other troops.

Best to follow along with some troops, and wherever the troops have been, sneak into those spots. The troops would have either killed whoever could have killed your spotter from that vantage point, or they will themselves present a higher priority target than your FO a distance behind them.

[Erwin]

"Best to follow along with some troops, and wherever the troops have been, sneak into those spots."

I agree completely and always use inf to do the initial recon of possible FO locations.

Sometimes the inf gets nailed, and sometimes they don't. But, even when I SLOW MOVE the FO to the intact "unspotted" recon inf location, the enemy AI seems to spot and shoot at the FO as if he is waving a red flag.

This is most pronounced in the small maps or when LOS is short so it makes sort of sense. But, how does one use a FO in that situation when using a regular HQ may double the FFE time and one only has 60 minutes. If this scenario (#5 of Conrath) was 2 hours I would be using HQ's as spotters more.

[eltorrente]

If you're getting spotted when slow moving AND hiding, then it sounds like a bad spot. You must not be able to hide in the terrain you are going to, otherwise they wouldn't see you.

[Stele]

Spotting in an attack is always a challenge since you're on the move. Spotting while defending gives you a chance to stake out the area until they come. I find that spotting in an attack with a force that can provide some suppression fire helps. Once the arty comes in then they're really suppressed giving you your chance to move.

[slysniper]

here is a gamey one for you, since you are playing the AI. I ran a few scouting units out into poor cover and that has releived the pressure on the FO before.

Playing the AI , you can always cheat, just have to be willing. It did cost me 4 pixel lives to keep the fire off the F.O til it came in.

[Peregrine]

It is important to also give your FOs short covered arcs to prevent them using their weapons.

Trickier in WEGO than realtime but hiding your FOs between calling the arty and the spotting round helps will prevent them being spotted. If they do get spotted then the position is a bad spot.

While following friendly troops is a good idea moving into exactly the same positions as friendly troops in front of the FO (especially if they were firing) is a bad idea as he stands a high chance of catching enemy arty while waiting for his own.

[Erwin]

All good points. I noticed that an inf unit in front of an FO tends to catch fire. I think the problem I have (in this scenario) are the short LOS distances makes it too easy to see the FO.

I keenly await CMSF2 etc as I hope we'll start to see much larger maps where maneuver and mobility is more important.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Does 'hiding' the FO retard his ability to direct fire? It's just I noticed that when I've 'hidden' the FO can can sometimes (i.e. I don't watch him the whole time) see that the Observer is "Spotting" rather than "Hiding".

Or do I just drink too much?

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Bare-arsed hills and pieces of isolated cover are very dangerous places for anyone, both in real-life and in CM. Unfortunately the terrain doesn't always give you much choice in the matter. Some very good suggestions have been made on this thread, but the bottom line is that there are no easy answers.

SLR

[slysniper]

Does 'hiding' the FO retard his ability to direct fire? It's just I noticed that when I've 'hidden' the FO can can sometimes (i.e. I don't watch him the whole time) see that the Observer is "Spotting" rather than "Hiding".

Or do I just drink too much?

Yes, hiding as the FO can cause you to have problems spotting. But after you call the arty in. go ahead and hide until the spotting rounds start to fall. Then unhide and get a good spot so that your arty is on target.

[slysniper]

It is important to also give your FOs short covered arcs to prevent them using their weapons.

Trickier in WEGO than realtime but hiding your FOs between calling the arty and the spotting round helps will prevent them being spotted. If they do get spotted then the position is a bad spot.

While following friendly troops is a good idea moving into exactly the same positions as friendly troops in front of the FO (especially if they were firing) is a bad idea as he stands a high chance of catching enemy arty while waiting for his own.

Good point. I play this a little different in HtoH play.

The trick is, send a scout unit or something like it with a short arc to where you want to place your F.o. firrst. let them see if they draw any fire, if they are safe, then move the F.O into position.

I also send the scouts on to another spot to check out the next location if you need to shift the F.O. to another location.

You are as good in the game as you are in learning to play smart. Every trick you can come up with as to protecting important units and sacraficing poor units if needed is worth trying. Just as in real life. A price must be paid, that price is normally in the form of the poor infantry.

[womble]

Does 'hiding' the FO retard his ability to direct fire? It's just I noticed that when I've 'hidden' the FO can can sometimes (i.e. I don't watch him the whole time) see that the Observer is "Spotting" rather than "Hiding".

Or do I just drink too much?

As Slysniper says, it can impair your ability to spot for the arty mission. "Hide" doesn't entirely eliminate "Spotting" but they spend much less time "Spotting", and if they're "Hiding" when the arty spotting round falls, they won't observe it, so having them Hiding while in the Spotting phase is a bit of a lottery.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Thanks. Been something I've been meaning to ask for ages.

Still I would have thought a bloody great *bang* would at cause the buggers to snatch a peek to see where it landed. If nothing more than stopping the next one ranging in on themselves... :-)

[Erwin]

"The trick is, send a scout unit or something like it with a short arc to where you want to place your F.o. firrst. let them see if they draw any fire, if they are safe, then move the F.O into position."

I have been doing that. But, vs the AI, it seems to spot and fire on the FO even if the preceding recon unit was not seen/ignored.

Re HIDE: I thought that if the FO can still see the enemy target when HIDING (ie: one can still get a clear TARGET line to the objective) it could still spot for arty while HIDING.

Often my recon guys can be on HIDE and they could still see the enemy clearly and I could (if desired) TARGET the enemy (which of course would have caused them to UNHIDE.)

[womble]

...vs the AI, it seems to spot and fire on the FO even if the preceding recon unit was not seen/ignored.

FOs will be higher up the "threat" list, I guess, so if the AI unit might ignore a simple scout, it won't ignore some guy with binos talking to a buddy with a radio...

Re HIDE: I thought that if the FO can still see the enemy target when HIDING (ie: one can still get a clear TARGET line to the objective) it could still spot for arty while HIDING.

It's not just the target it needs to be able to see, but the splashes of the spotting rounds. If it were a flat tableland, you may well see Hidden units be able to spot as well as unHidden ones, but anything that impairs their ability to see might result in at the very least, extra spotting rounds being needed.

[MikeyD]

If you're playing a hand-made scenario (as opposed to a QB) the scenario designer might've purposefully (and perversely) designed the scenario in such a way to make a FO doing his job very difficult. I did just that in two CMBN scenarios (snicker-snicker).

[Daroc]

Yes, hiding as the FO can cause you to have problems spotting. But after you call the arty in. go ahead and hide until the spotting rounds start to fall. Then unhide and get a good spot so that your arty is on target.

I have done this but playing non-english speaking I'm not quite sure all the time when the spotting rounds are flying till after.

[Bulletpoint]

I think the problem I have (in this scenario) are the short LOS distances makes it too easy to see the FO.

 

I think you are right. What's the distance to closest suspected enemy? Distance means a lot for spotting.

 

If you have at least 3-400 metres, try using smoke to get your FO into position. Movement means a lot for spotting, too. Often for tanks, for example, they cannot spot any infantry even at close range, unless the enemy gets up and runs.

[womble]

Just to check: you are using covered arcs for your scouts and spotters, aren't you? If not, it may just be the case that the scouts are remaining unseen because they're not shooting at anything, since they're not bino-equipped and haven't spotted any targets, but the FOs are spotting the enemy using their vision magnification, and attempting to engage them because they're within what the TacAI considers effective range. Scouts and FOs should, IMO, generally have short circular arcs (about 50m, I use as a rule of thumb) for "self-protection". Though they shouldn't really ever trigger...

[Bulletpoint]

 the FOs are spotting the enemy using their vision magnification, and attempting to engage them because they're within what the TacAI considers effective range. Scouts and FOs should, IMO, generally have short circular arcs (about 50m, I use as a rule of thumb) for "self-protection". Though they shouldn't really ever trigger...

 

I used to have problems with this, but seems recent patches has made FOs (and COs) much less likely to fire at range, so I stopped using target arches and so far haven't had any incidents..