Why I hate action spots

[John Kettler]

Mord,

If I can be off by 20 seconds a turn, it reveals how out of it I've been lately, but then, I did the miss twins' birthday the other day! Was unaware of the LOS from waypoint feature, but is the drag the waypoint from CMx1 still in? That was handy.

SLIM,

Am playing and have the Demo only, and yes, this is my first outing with CMx2. I played the St. Auban thing from the original American setup, just to see what would happen. You're right. My men fought most of the war by themselves, while I concentrated on killing armor. Shall have to see what I can do to make a better defense, but the original must've been a rush job, what with neither foxholes or weapon pits, the absence of which cost me dearly. Am gradually getting over my transition trauma. I understand that the full game has black on white PDF of the manual? If so, could you please E-mail me a copy? synchrony zero one (as numerics) at (expression of excitement) dot com That would make my life much easier, for I'm having a terrible time extracting the information from the manual because of low contrast ratio and color of type and background. Am afraid design cleverness trumped information transmission!

Regards,

John Kettler

[StellarRat]

"Why I hate action spots" is like saying "Why I hate the internal combustion engine". There may be a hundred completely valid reasons to cuss and swear at it but without one your car is just a large lawn ornament.

My car is electric. I don't cuss. I just figure I've moved into the 21st century.

[Sublime]

Kettler,

I just gave the advice because I remembered you from when I played CMBO and CMBB back when they actually first came out. After a hiatus and some other things I fired up CMSF years ago.. and was disgusted and didnt play it again. Had too much trouble, and my computer wasnt up to it then.

I ended up getting back into stuff and wanted to give it another shot 1:1 infantry modelling was the biggest issue I had with Cmx1. So I gave it a shot- starting with CM:A. After I got used to it... I cant believe I didnt like it at first - I guarantee you if you stick it out you'll see the beauty of this series. BFC definitey did not lose their touch, and CMBN has waaay more of the old CM games in it than a lot of people here will acknowledge.

Best of luck, if you end up getting it I'll PBEM ya..

[Vinnart]

I am not a programmer, but have looked inside the guts of several RTS games to come to the conclusion that RTS games are basically animated board games. Every RTS has action spots just as every chessboard has squares. They all have an underlying grid with the difference in Cmx2 being that it can be seen with the placement highlights where most games keep this hidden. It is the programming of this grid that runs the game interactions. If A(unit) is on B(Action spot/terrain) result is probable C, with lower probability of D, or E happening, and such. This is what makes each square unique with its own qualities in its interaction within the game.

As far Cmx2 goes I think it handles action spots OK, but do see that it could be improved. A typical example is: a team of 4 moves into an action spot with 2 trees. All 4 guys will huddle behind just 1 tree instead of spreading out, and using both trees. I expect this to improve as the development process continues.

One game “Sudden Strike” I used to play had 1:1 action spots. Each square was the size of a prone man, and was about 2-3 meters square if I recall correctly. Each man, say in a 12 man squad would occupy his own square where as CMx1 has all on one big square.

As far as hexes go they are good for tactical board games, but don’t fit well in this environment I.E building are square/rectangular. Not hex shaped.

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

I replayed the St. Auban (sic) scenario using resited ATGs. Siting guns is a nightmare with action spots because you can't first place the gun where you want it, then have the crew take position. I had a gun in a wall so far all I could see was one wheel, a gun whose LOS was completely blocked from what should've been a lovely keyhole firing position, a gun exposed to direct enemy observation, a gun with its muzzle stuck into a building, a gun so far down in a ditch it couldn't see, a gun past the corner of the building intended to protect it, etc. To quote Charlie Brown "Bleah!" Since I wasn't trying to be as clever with the HT, it wasn't as big a deal, but it was still a problem.

As for the battle, I did manage to fire my organic mortars with considerable effect, lost a lot of armor, some in fairly long shots from a Panther firing on the move (neat trick with no gyro stabilization), beat off the infantry attack, had an entire squad blown to bits by an immobilized Panther that simply wouldn't die, thought I held the CP because I had units, but not the HQ, in the VP location (HQ in next house calling last 21 60 mm rounds down on that Panther (multiple hits; no kill)) and wrecked the bridge, probably because FA bombardment attempt to kill tank earlier had weakened it. That Panther killed a platoon equivalent of tanks and TDs by itself, plus an ATG!

The game is growing on me as I become more familiar, but the workload is much higher, in my view, than in CMx1, demands greater concentration and attention, and is intensely frustrating at times. I agree with whoever said it's too easy to block LOS, and given the way the terrain's laid out, with the Germans on dominating terrain across the battlefield's width, smoke practically gutted me time and again, frustrating one effort after another to engage effectively.

Regards,

John Kettler

[sburke]

had an entire squad blown to bits by an immobilized Panther that simply wouldn't die

Well I lost not one, but two Tigers to JonS by close assault. It can be done, but it isn't easy (and shouldn't be).

The game is growing on me as I become more familiar, but the workload is much higher, in my view, than in CMx1, demands greater concentration and attention, and is intensely frustrating at times.

I think that is a pretty fair summary. Good tactics are rewarded much more in Cmx2 than Cmx1 and bad tactics are punished much more severely. To me that is a good thing, it means the engine works. Is my learning curve frustratingly flat at times...oh yeah. Still I am learning and to me that simply means I have a LOT of years of enjoyment ahead.

[JonS]

Well I lost not one, but two Tigers to JonS by close assault. It can be done, but it isn't easy (and shouldn't be).

... one of them in the middle of a large, flat, open field, no less

[sburke]

... one of them in the middle of a large, flat, open field, no less

Hey would you like a little salt in that wound? LOL

[Vanir Ausf B]

The Nahverteidigungswaffe didn't work, or did you have the earlier Tiger without one?

[JonS]

Dunno, but I smoked the bejesus out of it* before I sent the grunts in. I do loves me some 2-in firepower.

* Actually, I smoked them both before I went in.

[sburke]

The Nahverteidigungswaffe didn't work, or did you have the earlier Tiger without one?

Off hand not sure, but it is shadow of the hill 8:30am if you are interested in checking. The second one in the field he swamped in smoke, that tiger never even saw the close in infantry. I knew they were coming, but with it immobilized and no infantry available to support there was not much I could do. That'll teach me to leak opsec when posting about an ongoing PBEM LOL

I did get a PzIV over there but it arrived too late to stop the attack. The infantry that committed it paid for it the turn after, but the tiger and crew were pretty much history then. JonS also has a knack for removing the uber toting pistol crew as well. Had a great scene with two troopers standing over my prone infantry pumping rounds into them, one armed with a sten gun.

[JonS]

I did get a PzIV over there but it arrived too late to stop the attack.

Yeah, that was kind of interesting - if that PzIV hadn't shown up I'd have KO'd the Tiger, killed three of the crew, and gotten the other two to surrender without losing a man ... wait, hang on? I mis-timed the initial rush, and I think your Tiger got a few licks in as my guys were coming through the hedge, or was that the PzIV too? That just about bollixed that assault - pretty much all the teams I had heading in took cas from that, and went to ground.

By the way, it took an eternity after the dems charge went off for the crew to hop out. The Tiger's base stayed green for me, and I was sure I hadn't killed it yet.

[sburke]

Yeah, that was kind of interesting - if that PzIV hadn't shown up I'd have KO'd the Tiger, killed three of the crew, and gotten the other two to surrender without losing a man ... wait, hang on? I mis-timed the initial rush, and I think your Tiger got a few licks in as my guys were coming through the hedge, or was that the PzIV too? That just about bollixed that assault - pretty much all the teams I had heading in took cas from that, and went to ground.

By the way, it took an eternity after the dems charge went off for the crew to hop out. The Tiger's base stayed green for me, and I was sure I hadn't killed it yet.

no that was the tiger, it caught a brief view as your infantry got a little ahead of the smoke. I was really hoping it had done enough damage that maybe your infantry would balk.

I noticed that on the first tiger as well. I could actually hear them yell "granate!" and then I gather they sat around and drew straws as to who was gonna jump out first. Either that or they were making sure to grab their tourist guides, check the wallet for cash, put the kids sweaters on, check the cell phone.... Everybody remember where we got knocked out!

[c3k]

Well I lost not one, but two Tigers to JonS by close assault. It can be done, but it isn't easy (and shouldn't be).

I think that is a pretty fair summary. Good tactics are rewarded much more in Cmx2 than Cmx1 and bad tactics are punished much more severely. To me that is a good thing, it means the engine works. Is my learning curve frustratingly flat at times...oh yeah. Still I am learning and to me that simply means I have a LOT of years of enjoyment ahead.

In a PBEM, this couldn't have been made more clear. I had to cross an open field to get to a bocage line which bordered a town. I laid down a beautiful smoke screen on the bocage, then QUICKED my men across the fields. It was great. I was a friggin' genius. Until the smoke cleared just before my men reached the bocage. They were about 10-15m short as the lasp wisps faded away...

My entire Canadian platoon was wiped out, almost to the man.

You see, my opponent, seeing the smoke screen, rushed men to HIS side of the bocage. They were in position just in time. The smoke cleared and they had point blank targets right in front of them. It didn't take long, at least.

My lesson:

- Mix HE in with that Smoke if it's going to be used to screen an assault.

- Time the Smoke better, such that it doesn't disappear BEFORE your men cross the exposed ground.

Ken

[Sublime]

Kettler,

Yeah there are still some weird LoS issues. However I noticed day and night differences as the game gets patched. Couple of things -

the demo is not a good representation of the whole game. I cant stress this enough - Ive played a couple of scenarios that just didnt do it for me and I didnt even feel like playing the rest of the day after that. However against humans, and some of the well made scenarios...

The engine itself is spectacular. Once you cross to playing against a human its all you'll want to do as Im sure you remember from CMx1. And thats where the game shines, its so much more realistic, and theres so much going on in the battlefield its amazing.

Also as far as your battle - 60mm will never KO a panther. At best you MAY get track damage, maybe engine if you're super lucky. In fact I may have only seen arty kill a tank once or twicce in BN. in SF however I used to pull it off frequently - but thats just technology at work.

A helpful hint - bypass indirect fire for any on board mortars you have - I almost never use them that way, theyre very much more responsive and lethal to targets in your line of sight. especially the american 60mms, as they can keep up with your troops.

Split your teams and spread your men out. Very important.

Panthers are a very deadly tank in BN. As they were in real life. They have a good balance on anti inf. anti armor. A healthy respect for panthers is truly needed in this game. In fact I was shocked when I played my first german on german PBEM that panthers really kicked ass against tigers. its that high velocity 75mm. it'd go through my tigers like butter!

Initially in my play experience with BN when I saw the spotting rounds for off board arty come in I'd try to move my men out of the area ASAP. This works sometimes, however having your men run also exposes them to other enemy fire, allows the enemy to spot, and allows the shell fragments from explosions to hit them upright. Often enough I have them hunker down with hide, and doing so forces them to keep their heads down and drastically reduces my arty casualties I've noticed.

[womble]

In a lot of ways, it's worth thinking of CMBN as a team level game rather than a squad-level one. So a platoon has 9 elements rather than 3, and a company-sized scenario has pushing the same number of elements for you to manage as a CMx1 Battalion-sized engagement. So pick your battles according to the amount of time you want each turn to take to ponder over. I certainly couldn't play the game realtime; there's just too much to tinker with each minute.

The last game I finished, I lost a Panther to the single surviving member of a squad in the wood that I was clearing out. There were infantry and halftracks and the Panther itself flattening the vegetation with 7.92mm, but I missed covering a spot, and there was one lone sergeant hunkered down who popped up and close assaulted the Panther on his own, KOing it.

[JonS]

I had to cross an open field … the last wisps faded away

Heh. I had exactly the same thing happen with one of the Tigers I later close assaulted. I had a 6-pr Churchill with only 3 crew left, and I wanted to move it forward, but the only practical route was covered by the Tiger. But there was a smoke screen in the field I needed to traverse, so I figured if I fast moved it down the edge of the field between the bocage and the smoke it would all work out splendidly.

What I forgot is that “fast” and “Churchill” never belong in the same sentence. I also hadn’t been paying attention to how long the smoke had been hanging around.

Needless to say, as soon as the Churchill began making its stately way across the field the smoke dissipated, leaving it naked to the Tiger. Shortly after that the Churchill dissipated too.

[Michael Emrys]

In a lot of ways, it's worth thinking of CMBN as a team level game rather than a squad-level one. So a platoon has 9 elements rather than 3, and a company-sized scenario has pushing the same number of elements for you to manage as a CMx1 Battalion-sized engagement.

Yep. I began saying that a year ago. For me personally, trying to fight a battalion-sized scenario smacks of something close to insanity. I know some of you claim to do it with ease...but then, I am already of the opinion that many of you are nuts.

Michael

[George MC]

Yep. I began saying that a year ago. For me personally, trying to fight a battalion-sized scenario smacks of something close to insanity. I know some of you claim to do it with ease...but then, I am already of the opinion that many of you are nuts.

Michael

It's all you OCD, get down in the weeds, manage each man control freaks that are the issue. Not the size of battle. Us slap happy, OOPs! there goes a platoon type of big picture guys - casualties no object find playing battalion sized battles easy.

[Michael Emrys]

Glad I'm not in your army!

:eek:

Michael

[altipueri]

He's Scottish so he rightly isn't going to piss about with all that creeping through the grass lark.

As with the often told story of Lord Lovat and his piper:

"Lord Lovat's brigade was landed at Sword Beach during the invasion of Normandy on 6 June 1944. Lord Lovat reputedly waded ashore donning a white jumper under his battledress, with "Lovat" inscribed into the collar, while armed with a .45-70 Winchester underlever rifle. Lord Lovat instructed his personal piper, Bill Millin, to pipe the commandos ashore, in defiance of specific orders not to allow such an action in battle. When Private Millin demurred, citing the War Office regulations, he recalled later, Lord Lovat replied: “Ah, but that’s the English War Office. You and I are both Scottish, and that doesn’t apply.”

I also seem to recall Lovat's men later decided to cross Pegasus Bridge nonchalantly strolling despite there still being snipers - a decision that cost them several men.

[noob]

He's Scottish so he rightly isn't going to piss about with all that creeping through the grass lark.

Keep this to yourself but he's not a Scot, he's an Englishman that jumped the wall

[altipueri]

Poor chap. Perhaps they'll fling him back over the wall after they've voted for independence.

[womble]

Yep. I began saying that a year ago. For me personally, trying to fight a battalion-sized scenario smacks of something close to insanity. I know some of you claim to do it with ease...but then, I am already of the opinion that many of you are nuts.

Michael

I don't think it's a question of "ease" for me. I enjoy playing the game, and it doesn't matter for me how many "end screens" I see, so if a Bttn turn takes three (or nine) times as long to play as a Coy turn, it makes no never mind. In that respect it's one of those "process-driven" vs "goal-driven" things. I am primarily "process-driven", and Bttn sized games offer that much more "process".

[~Viajero]

By the way, force fire is definitely constrained by action spots but what about AI fire? I mean, when an AFV AI decides to fire to a just spotted enemy squad on the run, is it also constrained by action spots or fires direct to the seen contacts? Stupid question and I am sure there is a probably good coding answer but, if we can fire at direct contacts anywhere they are, and presumably not in an action spot center, why isnt equally possible to force fire to any point in LoS in the same way?