Fire through crop fields and/or smoke

[nachinus]

I knew from CMSF that you can't order area fire when there is something obscuring LOS in your way. It felt odd that you couldn't try to surpress a 'smoked' area as if some was bullet proof, but I eventually learnt to live with it. Unfortunately, in Normandy a new and ubiquitous element appears... the crop!.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Is there any way to fire through a wheat field? LOS in those fields only extends for 50m aprox., so even though the bocage in the other side of the field is clearly visible (because it's taller than the crops), I can't order my MGs to make area fire across the field. Is this WAD?

[Pak40]

Yea, this is one of my gripes about area fire in CMBN. For some reason area fire has to be a piece of ground. In reality most area fire was in a DIRECTION or at vertical objects such as hedgerows or buildings. Hedgrows and walls should be treated like buildings so that one can target them. Also area fire should be direction based instead of action spot based for crops fields and tall grass. It could be implemented like a covered arc command where the player sets a cone of influence.

[Hister]

Yeah this bothers me also - what says you devs?

[YankeeDog]

While strictly true that area fire could certainly be directed through smoke screens or wheatfields IRL, the current inability to do so in the game doesn't bother me that much because I think the player's omniscient view makes area fire in general far more responsive and powerful in the game than it would be IRL. Being able to shoot through smoke and wheatfields would just further imbalance things.

Now, looking to future came engine updates, if hypothetically other limitations were put on the area fire order, such as not allowing out-of-C2 units to use the area fire order at all, and perhaps adding a delay before area fire orders are initiated (similar to the way indirect fire is handled now, but probably usually with shorter delays for direct area fire), then I'd be all for expanding the targeting of area fire to allow swept arcs and firing through smoke, etc.

One qualifier I would probably set on the above proposed limitations to area fire is that units should probably always be allowed to area fire onto or near a location where that unit "knows" of a recent enemy presence, even if said unit doesn't currently have an enemy spotted in that location. -- this could be handled by always allowing a unit to area fire anywhere in LOS the that unit has at least a "?" contact, without delay or restrictions.

[weapon2010]

I use area fire quite often and it is a very powerful tool.Also remeber IRL troops are not going to area fire anywhere near the amount you would in this game.They would be much more concerned about ammunition conservation.In most cases in the game you get a boat load of ammo.This was not the case IRL.

[nachinus]

Good points, YankeeDog.

Maybe there should be a new step in the LOF system for this kind of thing. To the current blue (good) transparent (poor) magenta (blocked), a new grey one could be added (blind fire). This level would mean that there is no proper LOS but blind fire can be conducted, as in the above smoke/crop fields situations. This Blind Fire should have limitations (like those you propose) and be of very, very limited effectiveness. Only MGs should really have some decent supression effect doing this kind of fire.

[nachinus]

I use area fire quite often and it is a very powerful tool.Also remeber IRL troops are not going to area fire anywhere near the amount you would in this game.They would be much more concerned about ammunition conservation.In most cases in the game you get a boat load of ammo.This was not the case IRL.

I disagree. If a RL squad knows that in that big tall hedgerow 100m away -whose base you cannot see very well because of the crops- there is an enemy unit who is firing at your mates, I bet my car that the Brens/BARs/MGs/whatever are going to burn magazine after magazine.

For what I've read, it seems that people have a strong tendency of firing their weapons at locations where the enemy is believed to be without having to much of a target.

[Echo]

Needs fixed.

Bridge. Enemy cover bridge with smoke and run across. My MG cannot fire along bridge I KNOW then enemy is crossing.

Area firing with HMG crews is how they were used mostly. Crops and smoke mechanics are a pain.

[rocketman]

Needs fixed.

Bridge. Enemy cover bridge with smoke and run across. My MG cannot fire along bridge I KNOW then enemy is crossing.

Agree, or when a tank pops smoke and I KNOW it is behind that smoke screen, but I can't fire a pot shot through it.:mad:

[Erwin]

What car do you have nachinus?

[weapon2010]

Nachinus

So you think if you were in a battle you would blaze away at where the enemy might be with no concern of ammunition consumption?Im not saying the area fire mechanics are perfect but they far better than they were.Now you can graze fire to a larger area with the use of waypoints in a single turn.I also use this trick to area fire with mgs, area target to the very crest of a small or hill or rise when your 5,000 rounds in your tank or hmg arnt doing anything.Not all but many of those bullets fly high causing much dismay to any enemy in its path.Works great on large maps.Those bullets keep flying for a long distance and do cause casualties.

[nachinus]

What car do you have nachinus?

I don't really *have* a car. As a matter of fact, it's my wife's car what I'd be betting. ;P

So you think if you were in a battle you would blaze away at where the enemy might be with no concern of ammunition consumption?

Of course not without concern of ammo consumption, but it certainly seems to be a sound and widespread doctrine to overwhelm the enemy with supressive fire of all kinds.

[Arnoldio]

Supressive fire is only useful when taking action. Waste of amo is standing still and supressing the enemy. You either have to retreat, flank, advance call in support etc.

So yes, if you dont do anything, youre by all means wasting ammo.

Also issuing the light fire order probably consumes less?

[Pak40]

I use area fire quite often and it is a very powerful tool.Also remeber IRL troops are not going to area fire anywhere near the amount you would in this game.They would be much more concerned about ammunition conservation.In most cases in the game you get a boat load of ammo.This was not the case IRL.

I highly disagree. Units that have ample supply of ammo such as MGs and armored vehicles will pour hundreds or thousands of rounds in to suspected enemy locations. Their job is not necessarily to kill but to keep the enemy suppressed.

As it is now, the AI does not even use the area fire command (as near as I can tell). They only shoot at what they can see. If the target unit goes to hide and is no longer seen, then the shooting unit will stop firing until it sees the target again.

[JonS]

Suppressive fire is only useful when taking action. Waste of ammo is standing still and suppressing the enemy. You either have to retreat, flank, advance call in support etc.

Yep, exactly. There is a reason the technique is called 'fire and movement', not just 'fire'.

It's generally reckoned that squads have about 5 minutes depth of fire in them. After that they're just a bunch of guys wandering around with sharp sticks. If you go around blowing your squad's wads on anything that looks green and leafy you'll soon be refighting the Battle of Gaugamela, rather than the Battle of Normandy.

[c3k]

Hmm, the obvious solution to crops blocking your LOF is simple: use your crocodile to burn them down!

[Holien]

While I agree it is a bit of a pain and I can live without it I think I am having problems using smoke to area fire locations that you would be allowed to area fire with HE but No go for smoke as you can not see the ground. Not sure if it is a bug or a known feature...

[Erwin]

A problem I just experienced is my tanks not being able to see across a wheatfield, so I keep advancing them to get LOS to a road that I want to ambush some enemy tanks on. Suddenly the enemy tanks arrive and they are only a hundred yards away - way too dangerously close. It turns out it's easy to see across a wheatfield at a vehicle, but the LOS tool doesn't make that clear - in that one can't target trees that would also be much higher.

Oh well, chalk that up to experience I guess.

[Holien]

Yes can be confusing and not too clear. Not being able to area fire from tank to a spot in a wheat field does not seem right but I can live with it... (good job really as I am not sure if it is on radar to fix...)

[Holien]

I think I have found a buy that when a mortar has smoke and HE rounds it can drop smoke in corn fields despite LOS issues, yet when it just has smoke it can not...

I need to double check tonight if I get chance but I throw it out there if anyone else has noticed this?

[Erwin]

Here's another weird LOS phenomenon:

I have inf as well as mortars running away from a position that is about to be overrun - in a wheatfield. When I check LOS from the inf destination waypoint, they can't see any dangerous areas occupied by the enemy. So that should be a good position for the mortars too.

But, when I do the exact same waypoint LOS check for a mortar unit, for some reason the men can see a LONG way thru the wheatfield (and therefore would be seen by the enemy). I try this several times in several locations, and every time, the mortar unit has much better LOS than the inf unit.

Mortarmen presumably are the same height as inf, so what's going on here?

[Pak40]

Here's another weird LOS phenomenon:

But, when I do the exact same waypoint LOS check for a mortar unit, for some reason the men can see a LONG way thru the wheatfield (and therefore would be seen by the enemy). I try this several times in several locations, and every time, the mortar unit has much better LOS than the inf unit.

Mortarmen presumably are the same height as inf, so what's going on here?

Mortars and FOs(when spotting for missions) have the ability to spot a little beyond what they can actually see. They did this because they would otherwise not be able to set fire missions just beyond a hedgerow or in the middle of the wheat field. All other units that are direct fire only can only spot exactly what they can see.

[Erwin]

In my case where my mortars were trying to hide, they could see the enemy whereas the inf could not.

So, conversely can the enemy see my mortars if the mortars can see the enemy?

[Pak40]

No, as I said all other units that are direct fire only can only spot exactly what they can see. In other words, all units that are not FOs and mortars follow the strict LOS rules.

And, I think mortars and FOs follow the same LOS rules, however, for purposes of laying down indirect fire mortars and FOs need to to be able to target areas on the other side of objects such as walls and hedgerows.

It's in the manual pg 102

[Holien]

No, as I said all other units that are direct fire only can only spot exactly what they can see. In other words, all units that are not FOs and mortars follow the strict LOS rules.

And, I think mortars and FOs follow the same LOS rules, however, for purposes of laying down indirect fire mortars and FOs need to to be able to target areas on the other side of objects such as walls and hedgerows.

It's in the manual pg 102

I think there is a bug, in that when an on board mortar runs out of HE this rule stops happening and smoke can then not be dropped where once you could drop HE and Smoke as the unit had smoke and HE rounds.

I did not get a chance to play last night and hope to be able to have a double check tonight. Pretty certain that a mortar unit that runs out of HE can no longer drop it's smoke rounds where it could have done if it still had HE.

Hope those sentences make sense?