Baneman Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Here we have a picture of one of my Schreck teams taking a bead on an enemy tank. Nothing untoward here, you might think. But wait .. There's a freakin' tank between me and the one I can see !!??! That schreck unit had perfect ( blue line ) los to the entire area occupied by the invisible tank, had spent an entire previous turn with a covered arc on that spot ( because I knew it was there, it had spent a turn shelling a different unit ). On top of which, I had another schreck unit in a different position, that also had perfect los to that area who also could not see it. Now I know various rational explanations have been given for this kind of failure to spot ( spotting cycles etc. ), but I do think that perhaps Vehicles ( and particularly Tanks ) need a slight tweak to their "presence". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Perfectly straightforward, as you can see here: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Hehe, yeah, well ahead of its time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Now I know various rational explanations have been given for this kind of failure to spot ( spotting cycles etc. ), but I do think that perhaps Vehicles ( and particularly Tanks ) need a slight tweak to their "presence". I thought spotting cycles weren't in until they do a French module. And balloons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Just curious. If you actually turn on your foliage and get down to eye level where your shrek team is, how much can you actually see of either tank? Give us a screen shot of that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Maybe it's just a result of whatever screen capture program you used to get those shots, but they're awfully dark... it wouldn't happen to be nighttime, would it? Frankly, I'd believe just about anything when it comes to spotting stuff at night; even the dark outline of tank could easily merge into the building next to it and remain unnoticed for quite a while. Seems to me, there should be a lot or random chance stuff going on with spotting at night. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malfuriouspete Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Its obvious to me that this panzerschreck team must have been part of some LSD experiment put on them by the german high command. Its all in their heads, that other tank doesn't even exist! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Maybe it's just a result of whatever screen capture program you used to get those shots, but they're awfully dark... it wouldn't happen to be nighttime, would it? Frankly, I'd believe just about anything when it comes to spotting stuff at night; even the dark outline of tank could easily merge into the building next to it and remain unnoticed for quite a while. Seems to me, there should be a lot or random chance stuff going on with spotting at night. It is a night battle, correct, however, the invisible tank has been shelling another unit for the entire previous turn, so at the very least, the muzzleflash should be lighting him up like a Christmas tree - at least 4-5 times in the last minute. The visible tank was in fact, behind the building for a while and reversed into view only at the end of the previous turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Let me get this straight - There are at least two trees between your schrek team and the tank and it's night time?? Sounds like your "perfect ( blue line ) los" isn't so perfect after all. And apparently, the only reason the other tank was spotted is because it was moving. I agree that the muzzle flash should allow units to deduce that a tank is there but we know that CMBN doesn't take this into effect if the unit cannot be seen. So, my previous suggestion still remains: turn on your foliage and put the camera at eye level exactly where the schrek team is, then post a screen grab. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Another important factor which may be at work here is whether or not the unit was in C2 at the time, and what level off difficulty you were playing at. At higher levels of difficulty (Elite, Iron), when a unit is out of C2 there is actually a delay between when the unit spots an enemy, and when this information is shown graphically to the player. The situation where this is really noticeable is when an out-of-C2 unit suddenly opens fire on a location where you (the player) can't see any enemy units. Then a short time later, the enemy unit will appear in the targeted location. Pretty cool game feature, IMHO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 At higher levels of difficulty (Elite, Iron), when a unit is out of C2 there is actually a delay between when the unit spots an enemy, and when this information is shown graphically to the player. Essentially, although this is actually true for all difficulty levels except Basic Training. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Essentially, although this is actually true for all difficulty levels except Basic Training. Ah. Good to know. In any event, it's an important thing to keep in mind whenever looking at a situation where it seems like there's an enemy your units "should have" spotted. Since I learned this, I've come to understand that in many of these cases, my forward units had spotted the enemy just fine, but due to broken C2 I as commander wasn't getting the spotting info right away. This isn't to say that there aren't sometimes weird spotting events in the game, and that there isn't room for improvement. Just this morning, I had an event go the other way, where an infantry unit of mine (w/o binos) spotted an enemy armored unit 300m+ away through two tall hedgerows and multiple trees. Viewing things from the unit's perspective, I just don't see how it was possible... I suppose it could be explained by a combination of sound contact telling the unit where to look, and then maybe catching sight of engine exhaust or an antenna above the hedgerow er sumfink (the armor was moving at the time). Still, it must have been a pretty sharp-eyed GI that called out "Enemy armor ahead!" That guy is wasted in the PBI -- get him into the Air Corps! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Essentially, although this is actually true for all difficulty levels except Basic Training. A bit O/T but hat IS the difference, if any, between Warrior and Elite? As far as I can determine with Warrior you get unit's identifying icon which can be acquired in Elite by clicking on the unit. Seems senseless. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 A bit O/T but hat IS the difference, if any, between Warrior and Elite? As far as I can determine with Warrior you get unit's identifying icon which can be acquired in Elite by clicking on the unit. Seems senseless. BFC has been a bit coy about it, and the manual doesn't give any hard details other than that there are some differences. As far as I can tell, the only really specific info is this tidbit from the manual from in the description of "Warrior" Level: [Of Veteran level, describing differences between Veteran and Warrior] Enemies, once spotted, are not always immediately identified and can appear as generic enemy contacts (But less often than at Elite Level) (emphasis added) So apparently, you get generic "?" markers more often instead of hard IDs at Elite and above. That's one difference. I think there are more... I'm fairly certain C2 rules are stricter in Elite and Iron for example -- specifically, I think C2 harder to maintain, especially Distant Visual and Radio, and the rules for how spotting info travels around the C2 net are more strict. But getting hard data on this would be difficult and more effort than I'm willing to put in. I play Iron and it's fun for me. That's all I need to know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 As far as I can determine with Warrior you get unit's identifying icon which can be acquired in Elite by clicking on the unit. Seems senseless. Correct and Yes. I wish at Elite level they would redact the squad / unit information. Heck I think they should remove all the info in the lower panel. However if they do that they have to make sure that things like AT guns get their own icon. While I agree that spotted enemy soldiers should have icons of just generic soldiers, if my guys spot the AT gun itself or the 81mm mortar itself then the icon needs to reflect that. It is not fair to me to see a generic infantry icon but the spotting soldiers can see an AT gun. That is why I try to play on Warrior level - because Elite level takes away information I should have (at gun icons) and leaves me with information I should not have (2nd squad B team). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 BFC has been a bit coy Well it is Valentine's Day. Anyone send roses or take them to dinner?...no?..damn I bet the CW module gets delayed now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 To return to the original topic for a moment, I agree with the suggestion to turn on foliage. Any attempt to understand LOS without foliage on is doomed. I've experience this myself: done the same thing, posted screenies, only to find it all makes sense with foliage on. Originally Posted by YankeeDog At higher levels of difficulty (Elite, Iron), when a unit is out of C2 there is actually a delay between when the unit spots an enemy, and when this information is shown graphically to the player. Essentially, although this is actually true for all difficulty levels except Basic Training. You're kidding!? Where does it say this? Is there some confirmation? This sounds so crazy, for anything other than Elite, that I'm not sure if I think it's a good idea or a bad idea, I'd just like to be sure it's true... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 BFC has been a bit coy about it, and the manual doesn't give any hard details other than that there are some differences. As far as I can tell, the only really specific info is this tidbit from the manual from in the description of "Warrior" Level: Well, there are doors that Man was never meant to open. Or, it's a mystery! Like the Eucharist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 This isn't to say that there aren't sometimes weird spotting events in the game, and that there isn't room for improvement. Just this morning, I had an event go the other way, where an infantry unit of mine (w/o binos) spotted an enemy armored unit 300m+ away through two tall hedgerows and multiple trees. Viewing things from the unit's perspective, I just don't see how it was possible... I suppose it could be explained by a combination of sound contact telling the unit where to look, and then maybe catching sight of engine exhaust or an antenna above the hedgerow er sumfink (the armor was moving at the time). Still, it must have been a pretty sharp-eyed GI that called out "Enemy armor ahead!" That guy is wasted in the PBI -- get him into the Air Corps! Yes, I remember enemy contact being made when one of my guys was crawling through the undergrowth behind a couple of trees and suddenly he starts taking fire from someone a couple of hundred meters away. I "eyeballed" it myself and couldn't see how he could have possibly been spotted. But then we've all seen tanks that couldn't be spotted a couple of yards away on the other side of the hedgerow and tanks sneak up on AT positions. And, of course, the example by the OP. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 I shall dig up the relevant turnfile and turn foliage on. However, just going by the visible tree trunks, it looks more likely that the "Visible" tank should/would be hidden by foliage, than the "invisible" one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 It will be fascinating to see 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Ok, found the turns and took more shots. 1st pic is the view from the Schreck man the turn before with trees on. Tank is not obscured at all, but he can't see it ( I've deselected him in order to show it ). Note also, burning PzIV providing light source Also not shown, covered arc from building corner to tree trunk on right of tank. 2nd pic is his view at the end of the following turn. He's crawled forward a tad and the 2nd tank has come into view - he's just raised his schreck in the last second of the turn as he sees the 2nd tank. Here's a closeup of the 2 tanks ( camera moved directly forward from his location ). As you can see, about half of the visible tank is obscured by the invisible one and the part of the invisible tank that IS obscured by foliage is the nose, NOT the part covering the visible one. So either my guy is aiming at the rear 3rd of the enemy tank because the rest of it is hidden by .... nothing he can see, or he's aiming at all of it because he can't see anything in the way... either way, I still feel that vehicles are a little too easily "not seen" - it's big, it's noisy, hell, it's fired about 6 rounds of HE in the last minute... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Good photographic evidence! Sounds like a line of code missing which says "if I'm aiming at something, and there is something else in the way, and I haven't yet spotted that something, then now would be a good time to spot it" GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger33 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You're kidding!? Where does it say this? Is there some confirmation? This sounds so crazy, for anything other than Elite, that I'm not sure if I think it's a good idea or a bad idea, I'd just like to be sure it's true... GaJ It is. I can't remember which one it was, but one of the devs told me this directly in a thread a few weeks ago. I had no idea about it before that. Edit: He didn't say anything about different difficulty levels. I took it as always being the case, except maybe Basic Training 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 My soldiers can see something, and start shooting it it, but the game doesn't show me what it is? I'm sorry, but that still seems nuts, apart from some "crazy" setting where you want to be as confused as the headquarters unit (aka Elite). But in a game where the soldiers don't have a smart AI, nor does the PL, etc, I just don't see how this makes sense... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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