Towed guns in the offense. How?

[TheBlackHand]

Something I've never been good at, either with CMx1 or, even more so in CMBN.

I would assume that the way to use a towed AT or INF gun is to offer suppression so that the gun can move up and be put into place. Easier said than done. I cannot seem to keep these things alive long enough to get any worthwhile use out of them. Either that, or by the time they are safely brought to bear . . . the battle is practically over.

Any suggestions on how to use these assets?

I just played a battle with two towed infantry guns (Spam & Jam). I lost one gun rather quickly from long range rifle fire and eventually, mortar fire. The other I placed in ambush. He was able to kill a Sherman with the few HEAT shells allotted, but the gun was easily liquidated by the follow-on tank(s). I couldn't get either gun in a decent position to fire on an infantry target unless that target was already half-dead. I get the impression this isn't how it's supposed to work . . . or is it?

How does a pro use these things?

[Ranger33]

I've found it pretty difficult to use these offensively, for the same reasons you've stated. Using them at longer ranges seems to be the only way to make it work. Close up and they either get killed or by the time they set up they are no longer needed.

On defense though, this can be a great tactic, especially on longer scenarios. At best, a gun will get a few shots off and maybe some kills, but then it's useless because your oppo will either knock it out or avoid it. However, if you are sneaky you can roll it back, hitch it to a truck, and set it up somewhere different entirely. The best part is he will probably still think it's at the original spot for quite a while.

[Erwin]

They probably only work on the rather small CMBN maps if the opposing force has no armor and one can keyhole firing the HE at a significant target (eg church steeple) esp if you want to conserve your own tanks' HE.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

My understanding is that the way they were used historically in the offense is that they were deployed on an objective after it had already been taken in order to defeat enemy counterattacks, rather than used during the offensive phase itself.

[MikeyD]

I recall reading somewhere that along the entire front during the Normandy battles all of those countless U.S. TD battalion towed guns destroyed just six tanks. My reference is elsewhere, but that stat might've been right up through July. So if you find the darned things almost impossible to use for anything except firing on distant buildings - then the game's operating in a historical manner. As a matter of fact one of the game scenarios I did I included a towed gun out of perversity because I knew it would be all but useless.

[TheBlackHand]

Thanks for the responses. I have used AT & INF guns in the defensive role very effectively during PBEM battles. I've also used them in just the manner described, by moving them when possible. Kind of like sniping.

Offensively, it is another matter. I agree that the only way to really use them is to find a keyhole, (which I did with the one gun) or use them as a way to foil a counterattack or reinforcement. I recall another battle against the AI (can't recall the name), in which I was given a towed 57mm and a bunch of Shermans. I placed the AT gun over on one side of the map with a good field of fire on the back/right side of a hill that I was attacking from the left. I figured it could get a shot on anything that might come round that way. Nothing happened, but at least he was there.

All in all, I get the impression that towed guns in the offense are not intended to be seen rolling along "in the van" with the infantry or tanks.

[wombat_of_war]

I recall reading somewhere that along the entire front during the Normandy battles all of those countless U.S. TD battalion towed guns destroyed just six tanks. My reference is elsewhere, but that stat might've been right up through July. So if you find the darned things almost impossible to use for anything except firing on distant buildings - then the game's operating in a historical manner. As a matter of fact one of the game scenarios I did I included a towed gun out of perversity because I knew it would be all but useless.

you evil evil man.. well done

[Praetori]

Thanks for the responses. I have used AT & INF guns in the defensive role very effectively during PBEM battles. I've also used them in just the manner described, by moving them when possible. Kind of like sniping.

Offensively, it is another matter. I agree that the only way to really use them is to find a keyhole, (which I did with the one gun) or use them as a way to foil a counterattack or reinforcement. I recall another battle against the AI (can't recall the name), in which I was given a towed 57mm and a bunch of Shermans. I placed the AT gun over on one side of the map with a good field of fire on the back/right side of a hill that I was attacking from the left. I figured it could get a shot on anything that might come round that way. Nothing happened, but at least he was there.

All in all, I get the impression that towed guns in the offense are not intended to be seen rolling along "in the van" with the infantry or tanks.

Pretty spot on.

It's doable with the lighter guns. Though most people I've seen tend to be a bit too greedy when they chose where to deploy them.

I usually have the HQ for the guns recon the spot where I want them (makes sense and works wonders to find the special cozy spot with decent LOS and cover).

Towing them to "the hill" with 360 degrees field of fire for a thousand yards is a bad idea as they'll be dead before deployment.

A single road or junction from behind a treeline works for offensive operations.

The job of the guns are to protect the advance and I usually move them forward to cover places where I DON'T want the enemy to be (even though none have yet been spotted there).

Sometimes I move them up behind the infantry to put some rounds into houses the Infantry is attacking. They rarely have LOS to much else and therefore usually survives.

I've found the guns to be much more efficient in RT compared to WeGo as it's possible to micromanage them into a good firingposition.

[TrailApe]

I think they are not much use as an attacking weapon in any scenario where you are on the offensive. However I've read up quite a bit on the 21st Army Group (British ,Canadians, Poles etc) since CMBN came out, and it was mainly in meeting the counter attack that they knew the Germans would throw in, that the towed 6 and 17lbers were of most use.

So they were not used in the attack, but they came along with the assault, knowing that they would have to be used very shortly after the objective was taken.

Obviously the 17lber gave you more bang for your buck, but it was a big heavy gun and hard to effectively deploy in a hurry (hence the development of that most misunderstood of all vehicles, the Archer) so the 6lber often had to hold the line - which given the short ranges and terrain advantages to the defender, it did ok in most cases.

[c3k]

Offensive use? It's very simple. Hook them up to their tow vehicle, and then ENSURE you only move by using REVERSE. That should get you pointed in the right direction...

[TheBlackHand]

Offensive use? It's very simple. Hook them up to their tow vehicle, and then ENSURE you only move by using REVERSE. That should get you pointed in the right direction...

That's funny . . . but it actually reminded me of something else. Backing up a military truck with a towed gun should be difficult. Very difficult, if not impossible, when under fire. I've never seen one of my trucks jack-knife the gun when backing up. They seem to reverse in a straightforward, smooth manner. My memory is a little hazy on this. Can it happen in the game? I realize it might be one of those small things that the programmers didn't have the time or initiative to work on. No big deal, but it would add a bit of realism. Has anyone else ever seen it happen?

[Sgt Schultz]

No, the towed unit and the towing vehicle become one unit for travel purposes. No jack-knifing.

I would suggest very careful consideration of the map beforehand. If you see lanes that lead to decent firing positions, and the ground is damp or worse, then go for it.

Guns and their prime movers won't bog so much, and if they do, it is cheaper than losing a tank.

Move Forward, behind the main force but in front of reserves.

Make a 3-4 point turn to go from Forward to Reverse facing, then give Reverse order. No command delays, so pile on the waypoints for a smooth transition. Pivoting 180 degrees in place takes long time and seems to me that it would increase bog chance digging a hole like that.

Reverse to within 1-2 tiles of firing position.

Move order to gun with Deploy at endpoint.

Personally I wouldn't bother with Ami guns on the attack(better mobile equipment), but the German Infantry Guns are potent. The 150mm IG uses some sort of stealth technology. Small visual signature when sitting or firing. I think it may share the 75mm IG signature myself, but I am not complaining.

34 casualties and 4 vehicle kills(2 with 1 shot) without ever being spotted in one outing. Now, that was on defense, but there are ways to get them into LOS on the attack.

Like SMOKE.

People seem to forget they have it.

[Chainsaw]

Like SMOKE.

People seem to forget they have it.

Trouble with smoke is that if you play a human player its a great warning you are doing something of importance

[Michael Emrys]

During the early war years, the Germans would use their infantry guns offensively (especially the 75mm lIG, which was lighter and more maneuverable by its crew) by wheeling them up to a point where they could lob HE on a strongpoint while remaining outside the range of effective small arms fire. From midwar on, this role seems to have been taken over by medium mortars, which is not surprising given that the latter are more portable over more kinds of terrain and cheaper to build in quantity.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Trouble with smoke is that if you play a human player its a great warning you are doing something of importance

I would assume that on the CM battlefield this is already the case. Until someone comes up with an "all's quiet on the Western Front" scenario where the troops just sit around in their trenches throughout the entire engagement. The sound track for this scenario should feature a harmonica and the sound of a stewpot being stirred.

Michael

[MikeyD]

The US 76mm (3 inch) towed gun has more general purpose utility than the 57mm because the 3 inch fires HE (like the German AT guns). So you can get some infantry support use out of those TD battalion 3 inch guns. Which is exactly what happened in real life. Not much shooting up of tanks but lots of firing HE into buildings for infantry support. Brit 6 pounders have the benefit of HE ammo so their utility should spike in the game.

[Baneman]

What would be good is if a gun were able to be pushed backwards by its crew.

Right now if you want to move a gun 5m back from it's current position in order to hitch it to a tow vehicle ( for example ), the crew achingly slowly rotate it 180 degrees in order to move it those 5m, which can take 2 turns ! IRL, they would push it backwards in about 10 seconds flat.

[flamingknives]

That's funny . . . but it actually reminded me of something else. Backing up a military truck with a towed gun should be difficult. Very difficult, if not impossible, when under fire. I've never seen one of my trucks jack-knife the gun when backing up. They seem to reverse in a straightforward, smooth manner. My memory is a little hazy on this. Can it happen in the game? I realize it might be one of those small things that the programmers didn't have the time or initiative to work on. No big deal, but it would add a bit of realism. Has anyone else ever seen it happen?

In real life, it depends on the relative size and wheelbase of the tractor and gun.

a Jeep and 57mm should be simplicity itself to reverse to just where you want it. A 2.5 ton truck and 76mm would be trickier, but possible. A 2.5 ton truck and a 57mm would be harder.

[TheBlackHand]

I have gotten some good info from this thread and I will put it to good use.

Yes, a light gun should be able to be pushed/pulled backward by it's crew (I would assume, only because I've seen it done in photos/videos).

I should also mention that, having worked as a repossession agent, I can tell you from experience that it is quite difficult to back up a truck with a vehicle in tow while under attack.