Butschi

Can we please stop this? I'm seriously tired of reading every few pages how we mollycoddled, money-grubbing "old" europeans have no idea and want to happily sacrifice a few of the wise and strong eastern european countries (who don't need us anyway because they are now allied with the invincible USA) so we can finally go back to trading with Russia in order to let the party continue.
Very much exaggerated on purpose. As I already said here, several times, this helps noone. I am guilty of having discussed politics here more than once but let's keep it civil, shall we?
 

Can we please stop this? I'm seriously tired of reading every few pages how we mollycoddled, money-grubbing "old" europeans have no idea and want to happily sacrifice a few of the wise and strong eastern european countries (who don't need us anyway because they are now allied with the invincible USA) so we can finally go back to trading with Russia in order to let the party continue.
Very much exaggerated on purpose. As I already said here, several times, this helps noone. I am guilty of having discussed politics here more than once but let's keep it civil, shall we?
 

Can we please stop this? I'm seriously tired of reading every few pages how we mollycoddled, money-grubbing "old" europeans have no idea and want to happily sacrifice a few of the wise and strong eastern european countries (who don't need us anyway because they are now allied with the invincible USA) so we can finally go back to trading with Russia in order to let the party continue.
Very much exaggerated on purpose. As I already said here, several times, this helps noone. I am guilty of having discussed politics here more than once but let's keep it civil, shall we?
 

Can we please stop this? I'm seriously tired of reading every few pages how we mollycoddled, money-grubbing "old" europeans have no idea and want to happily sacrifice a few of the wise and strong eastern european countries (who don't need us anyway because they are now allied with the invincible USA) so we can finally go back to trading with Russia in order to let the party continue.
Very much exaggerated on purpose. As I already said here, several times, this helps noone. I am guilty of having discussed politics here more than once but let's keep it civil, shall we?
 

Can we please stop this? I'm seriously tired of reading every few pages how we mollycoddled, money-grubbing "old" europeans have no idea and want to happily sacrifice a few of the wise and strong eastern european countries (who don't need us anyway because they are now allied with the invincible USA) so we can finally go back to trading with Russia in order to let the party continue.
Very much exaggerated on purpose. As I already said here, several times, this helps noone. I am guilty of having discussed politics here more than once but let's keep it civil, shall we?
 

Can we please stop this? I'm seriously tired of reading every few pages how we mollycoddled, money-grubbing "old" europeans have no idea and want to happily sacrifice a few of the wise and strong eastern european countries (who don't need us anyway because they are now allied with the invincible USA) so we can finally go back to trading with Russia in order to let the party continue.
Very much exaggerated on purpose. As I already said here, several times, this helps noone. I am guilty of having discussed politics here more than once but let's keep it civil, shall we?
 

Economics is not my area but I am not sure this is something we would undertake lightly:
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peoples-republic-china
In Canada they are our #3 trading partner:
https://angusreid.org/canada-china-trade-economy-2022/
Those are really big numbers being tossed around.  For comparison US - Russia trade is about 5% of what is does with China:
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/russia
Russia trade with Canada barely breaks the 1B$ mark.
https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/TradeAndInvestment/2017593E
 
So What?  Going to be exceedingly hard to get unity on China sanctions unless they do something egregious and selling limited weapons to Russia (which is perfectly legal by the way, particularly as China has not joined the sanctions block) is likely not going to do it.
 

No, you strongly underestimate how much the western industry not only depends on China as a market but also as global workbench. The Russian sanctions already hurt us. But that is mostly fossil fuels and food. And is (technically) relatively easy to import those from somewhere else. Apart from that ours and the Russian industry isn't very interdependent. China? Most of our electronics products are manufactured in China, hell, most of everything is manufactured there. Sanctions would be mutually assured destruction, so nothing will happen. I mean, how much worse can it really get than concentration camps for a whole ethnic group? And still no real reaction from the west.

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, I really don't think it's good to whitewash our past. We probably shouldn't pretend that the British Empire were the good guys (you don't conquer a quarter of the globe by being nice). On the other hand, it isn't relevant to any discussion of who the good guys are today. No reasonable person should have any concern that the British will get up to their old habits.

I think Ukraine would be well advised to publicly announce something along the lines of DLPR leaders and ther henchmen will be trialed (fairly) but fighters (who have not commited war crimes) will be pardoned if they surrender. From our (German) history one can learn that the best way to make sure people fight until death is to let them fear what may happen to them if taken alive or after a general surrender. (That's way Germans were much more willing to surrender on the western front than in the east).

Can we please leave personal things out of this discussion? It doesn't help and that road is a slippery one.

I think Ukraine would be well advised to publicly announce something along the lines of DLPR leaders and ther henchmen will be trialed (fairly) but fighters (who have not commited war crimes) will be pardoned if they surrender. From our (German) history one can learn that the best way to make sure people fight until death is to let them fear what may happen to them if taken alive or after a general surrender. (That's way Germans were much more willing to surrender on the western front than in the east).

I think Ukraine would be well advised to publicly announce something along the lines of DLPR leaders and ther henchmen will be trialed (fairly) but fighters (who have not commited war crimes) will be pardoned if they surrender. From our (German) history one can learn that the best way to make sure people fight until death is to let them fear what may happen to them if taken alive or after a general surrender. (That's way Germans were much more willing to surrender on the western front than in the east).

200k is pretty restrained given history in the neighbourhood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
If Ukraine is smart, and I strongly suspect they will be - see membership in EU/NATO - collaboration and treason will be handled under a fair and transparent legal process (e.g. was collaboration forced?)…likely one much more rational than the actions of some others, or those they have supported.
 

That's going to be a hard nut to crack indeed. Never in post WW2 history has any Western country reincorporated a rebellious province by force (discounting various colonial adventures, not really applicable here) - how do you go about that really? There's got to be some nastiness involved, no way around it I'm afraid 😕 Creating situations like this was Russia's MO for the last 30 years, that's one more reason to hate them.

I guess you could do an actual fair referendum with mandatory participation from the Crimea population. Or you can demilitarize Crimea and make it neutral territory. Other than that, not many options.

I think NATO can afford to be a little more self-critical. Afghanistan, while indeed officially defensive was at least controversial. NATO and/or the USA were not attacked by the nation Afghanistan but by a terror organization with their home base in Afghanistan. To make that a case for article 5 was at least stretching things a bit. Making not handing over the leader of an organization a legal casus belli is also a really slippery slope.
Anyway, I don't think all this whataboutism is doing much good. What Russia is doing is really evil and it doesn't get better by pointing out that other countries are doing evil things, too. What annoys me, though, is that this way we are handing the really bad guys around the globe cheap justifications. (Nowadays everyone justifies every military intervention with war on terror, for instance.)

IMO, there is a difference between asking s.o. to be grateful and expecting it. If I help someone I don't say: "I helped you, now say thank you!". But like most human beings I do expect some form of gratitude even if it's just a nod or a smile. We work like that. What I don't expect to happen is being instulted for not having helped more or faster even if that was true. Doesn't mean that can't be brought up as constructive criticism in a polite way and in addition. You may like it or not and an insult might help your ego but it will not further your cause, period.
And to turn your point around, who cares for what reason someone helps as long as the result is the same? Do you honestly think the US and UK are sending all those weapons just because it is the right thing to do? Of course, geopolitical and economical reason play a roll, too, not to mention upcoming elections. Leaves a mildly bitter taste but in the end what counts here is the result.
As @Aragorn2002 said, it also doesn't sound too unrealistic. You rightly criticised Scholz more than once but the Polish government also didn't play entirely fair during the last months. Whatever, as I said above, we all have ulterior motives, that's a (sad) fact of life. Maybe we should stop bickering about it, in the long run only the populists and Putin profit from that.

They don't have anything to offer or withdraw to pressure UA into that - all already pledged to support it in obtaining EU candidacy status. Zelensky would probably made any funny business public and humiliate them thoroughly. 
I'd rather think that they finally understood where the political capital is to be made ( and what coincidentally is a right thing to do, and good for everyone in EU too). It's probably going to be afer FR parliamentary elections, so Macron should have his hands untied finally. I don't expect anything huge, but some robust economic support package and loud declaration of support of UA cause would be great.
And some Eurofighters
Edit: on a more serious note, I really think is that the best way to both increase EU unity and highlight independence from US, is to try to outmatch it in support given to UA. It is a one in a decade chance. I thought EU leaders blew it, but maybe there's still time... 

I've just passed to this page and read THIS. Guys, I though this was just a joke, but now my heart is melted down and I can't reject this gift. Though, I feel myself awkward... and also huge gratitude to all of you and Kinophile personally for idea     

I think NATO can afford to be a little more self-critical. Afghanistan, while indeed officially defensive was at least controversial. NATO and/or the USA were not attacked by the nation Afghanistan but by a terror organization with their home base in Afghanistan. To make that a case for article 5 was at least stretching things a bit. Making not handing over the leader of an organization a legal casus belli is also a really slippery slope.
Anyway, I don't think all this whataboutism is doing much good. What Russia is doing is really evil and it doesn't get better by pointing out that other countries are doing evil things, too. What annoys me, though, is that this way we are handing the really bad guys around the globe cheap justifications. (Nowadays everyone justifies every military intervention with war on terror, for instance.)

EDIT: Removed my post. While I agree that there is way too much black-and-white painting going on about the Good NATO vs the evil world out there, this really leads nowhere good right now, derails the thread and anyway, at the moment we do need NATO, no matter what.

Hope that "ideological supporters of Russia" wasn't aimed at me... I have no love for Russia, I just think that especially in this forum there is sometimes too much emotion and black-and-white thinking applied to what I see as basically a good old-fashioned hegemonical conflict for spheres of influence by two great powers (or rather, one great power and one play-acting as one).

IMO, there is a difference between asking s.o. to be grateful and expecting it. If I help someone I don't say: "I helped you, now say thank you!". But like most human beings I do expect some form of gratitude even if it's just a nod or a smile. We work like that. What I don't expect to happen is being instulted for not having helped more or faster even if that was true. Doesn't mean that can't be brought up as constructive criticism in a polite way and in addition. You may like it or not and an insult might help your ego but it will not further your cause, period.
And to turn your point around, who cares for what reason someone helps as long as the result is the same? Do you honestly think the US and UK are sending all those weapons just because it is the right thing to do? Of course, geopolitical and economical reason play a roll, too, not to mention upcoming elections. Leaves a mildly bitter taste but in the end what counts here is the result.
As @Aragorn2002 said, it also doesn't sound too unrealistic. You rightly criticised Scholz more than once but the Polish government also didn't play entirely fair during the last months. Whatever, as I said above, we all have ulterior motives, that's a (sad) fact of life. Maybe we should stop bickering about it, in the long run only the populists and Putin profit from that.

To say "so far no nuclear escalation has happened, so to think it can happen in the future is stupid" is unreasonable. That's just like the proverbial guy who jumps from a skyscraper and 2 floors before impact says: "Ha, so far nothing bad has happend!" Whether there is a threshold for escalation, and, if so, which, is something that probably only Putin himself knows. If at all because that implies some semblance of reasonable behaviour right up to the end.

I, for one, don't think we should let fear of that dictate what we do but it would be remiss to not at least keep in mind that the threat is real.

Re German tanks: Now you force me to defend Scholz again, I really don't like to do that. 😉 But did I miss US Abrams tanks or British Challengers being in Ukraine? At least in that regard, Germany is not the only country being on the catious side.