Kraft

About Ukraine I like how supporters of Poroshenko don't take in fact the videos they have where they execute a man by cracking his spine with a kettle. Or the countless videos of bombardment of residential areas, And a ballistic missile was used but, all they think is "Putin is a bad man he is still communist" or just the simple "We hate Russia" mentality that is being presented by the government of certain countries to the population. Same type of people who believe in this stuff also believe that Russian forces shot down flight MH17

The GAU-8 was great against tanks when it was designed, and yes it will mess up BMPs and the like, but against modern Russian MBTs against anything less than a rear attack (not as guaranteed as you'd think), penetration is unlikely.  True it will mess up all the "soft" sensors and the like on top, but it probably won't even get a mobility kill with the gun alone.  This post links to a semi tongue-in-cheek coloring book for A-10 pilots on where to engage T-62s.  Another noteworthy quote from this article which cites Combat Aircraft magazine regarding 1980s Germany:

"According to Combat Aircraft magazine, the flying branch predicted that, if the A-10s went into action, seven percent of the jets would be lost per 100 sorties. Since each pilot was expected to fly at most four missions per day, each base would in theory generate more than 250 sorties daily. At this pace, a seven-percent loss rate per 100 flights equaled at least 10 A-10s shot down at each FOL every 24 hours — and that’s being conservative.
 
At that rate, in less than two weeks the entire A-10 force at the time — around 700 jets — would have been destroyed and the pilots killed, injured, captured or, at the least, very shook up."
Also, if it were to go into battle against a modern force, it would not load up every single pylon with every single weapon it could take because that would be suicide.  You'd get maybe 4 Mavericks and a laser guided bomb on a heavy loadout.  Any more and maneuverability is severely compromised, which is a death sentence in this theater.  A loadout like that is much more comparable to faster jets with better defensive measures.  Including, and I hate myself for saying it, the F-35

He did it not only to ukrainians, but with the whole SU. Evryone where hungry. 
Do you speak russian or ukrainian?
When i tolk about russian history i usaly use russian sources of information writen on russian language.

Quite.
 

“Blackknight Six, this is Blackknight Five, over.”  LT Romero, the XO of B CO, called his commander.  His Bradley, along with B CO’s first PLT, was driving hard for hill 347 and helped in decimating the Russian mech PLT in the field where Outlaw 16 had died. 
“This is Six, send it.”
“Just linked up on ground with Outlaw elements.  Confirm that 16 actual is down and will work a nine-line MEDEVAC for their personnel.  They state that the Russians right in front of us have at least two T-90s hull-down at the base of the hill.  I say again, there are tanks to our direct front, close range!”
 
CPT Fuller ponders this for several seconds.  He had planned to send his tank PLT to sweep wide to the left, reducing remain in resistance in the small copses of trees between fields and orienting fires to the south, around and behind 347.  He shifted gears in an instant. 
 
“Roger, break, Blue 1 this is six, over.” 
 
“Six, this Blue One, I monitored.”  LT Trevor Stanley from Pittsburgh responded with clipped precision, indicating he heard the report from Blackknight Five as well.  Although just a second lieutenant, Stanley was a graduate of Officer Candidate School.  A former 11B sergeant, he had fought two deployments in Afghanistan, both to RC-East in Khost, during which time he had earned both an Army Commendation Medal and a Bronze Star, each with a “V” device, for valor.  After OCS he amazed his instructors by requesting to branch Armor, rather than Infantry.  He like to joke that it was too much work to fight dismounted, and his inherent laziness combined with his penchant for muscle cars made tanks a natural fit.  He was easily the most competent platoon leader in Farmer’s company, and his tanks were drilled to a razor’s edge.   Farmer could hear the turret hydraulics of Stanley’s tank in the background – the turret never stopped scanning as the LT replied to his commander.  He had just completed a quick spot report in BFT2 indicating his wingman had engaged and destroyed a BMP far to the south, and was preparing to bound his platoon sergeant’s section forward to begin sweeping left.
 
“Blue One, change of plans.  Red continues towards 347 and provides overwatch with Javelins and TOWs to deny anyone getting back up on the hill.  Need you to shift from left to center and find those tanks.  Work to get them focused in two directions at once.”
“Blue one roger.”
“Red one roger!”
“White, you take over the left side and clear those treelines.  Power Six posts a BMP and Flak tank also at the base of the hill.  Red, ensure you keep those pinned down so they don’t distract Blue.  We’ll flush them with arty if we have to.  Take it slow and don’t rush to failure, over.”
Even as CPT Farmer spoke, he watched his platoons respond.  Red one was just to his front, and looked back.  Farmer waved and then pointed directly towards the BMP and Tunguska the Battalion Commander had posted in BFT2.  The lieutenant gave a thumbs up, and Farmer saw his right hand go to his right ear, keying his radio and speaking.  Farmer could not hear him as he was talking on his platoon internal net, but he could see the Soldiers responding.  Infantrymen loaded back onto their Bradleys, and the platoon began bounding forward, as stationary elements kept up a strong fire on the remaining Russian dismounts in the field ahead.
 

 
http://youtu.be/-PeFDwEGIe8
 
Power 3 finishing the Russian infantry from the BMP-3 Power 6 destroyed previously.  Both are holding position in the center waiting for Blackknight to flush or destroy the remaining BMP-3 and Tunguska to their front.
 
“Tactical patience,” Farmer thought, “we really need to develop this situation and see what is really out here.”  White 1, Lieutenant Murphy, was charged with getting a Raven UAS up to observe 347 itself.  Telling him to hustle would not help.  Farmer checked the BFT2 again, and then pulled up his binoculars to watch the company advance.  As he watched, a Blue tank fired again, the AMP round hammering more of the Russian infantry in front of Red.  Then he saw his FST’ers work, as a short quick fire mission of 155mm rounds crashed directly onto a farm complex to the company’s front. 
“Conducting the Symphony of Destruction!”  Farmer grinned to himself and continued to watch his company at work.
 
http://youtu.be/9CGgSUtV6l4
 
Symphony of Destruction, first chord...
 
 
“Steel Five, this is White One, over.” 
“Send it!”  LT Sheridan was moving, thinking and reacting faster than he ever had in his life.  He was still desperately fighting to find any remaining Russian infantry in close proximity to his tank, urging his gunner and loader to try and get the 120mm cannon back into operation and trying to consolidate some control over the disrupted company. 
“This is White One, we have reached the road.  Spotted enemy victors pulling back east down it.  Think we killed two and are continuing to engage, break.”
“Also have good eyes on south slope of Hill 347.  Engaged and destroyed one BMP3 up there for sure.  Continuing to scan, over.”
“This is Steel Five, roger, hold what you got until we can get this Russian outpost sorted out.”  Even as he spoke, Steel’s first platoon was indeed getting it sorted out.  The tanks pulled forward, reoriented to their right and began tearing into Russian infantry with their .50 caliber machineguns. 
“Blue one, Steel Five, have your FO start working up the mortars to hammer the gully to our front.  I want that thing plastered!” 
“Roger, over!” 
 

 

 

 

 
“Vovk, this is Brytva 22.  We are at our position at the north end of the town.  Borsuk 21 is destroyed.  We didn’t see what did it.  We have fired at some infantry to our front, and believe there is an element on our east flank, but we are secure here.  Believe the enemy has a foothold in Krichek, but with infantry to help we can probably push them back out, over.” 
KPT Kovtun winced at the news of another destroyed BMP-2 – his last remaining – but was heartened by the optimism of the Flakpanzer commander.  Serzhant Levitsky was usually far from optimistic, and if he was acting so positively it must mean he felt the situation was well in control.  He turned to MAJ Harris who was working diligently on his PDA.
“Is it done?” 
“Roger that, Kapitain.  We are tied into the Task Force fires net now.  Couple of minutes and the top of that hill should get flattened.  But make sure he knows that SFC Bagby is headed up that way on his left”
Kovtun turned back to the radio.  “Brytva 22, American artillery will hit the hilltop to support you.  If you need it adjusted let us know.  You retain control of my command truck and the squad and machinegun team with them.  Continue to hold the north end of the town.  Be alert for the American Team Sergeant – he is moving up to recon on your left.”
MAJ Harris paused before heading out the door back to his HMMWV.
“Oh, and SPC O’Brian on the far bank managed to destroy an enemy T-90.  With the first two company-teams in range now, the Russians should have a very hard time.
Kovtun nodded to the American, without a smile.  “Good.” He said.
 

realistic doesn't mean good. The world could of played out in a billion different way, each as real as the next. It really doesn't matter what the game is about or how it's played, but what makes it good is that it makes us use the skills inside of us and that is as real as you can get. What if in the future they have super laser beams that can shoot in between atoms to kill you, and senors that can detect life within a 20 mile radius, those things are real, in the future, who cares what this version of what we have is in the game or not, because you can't change the genre of what it is. A game, like any other game. The medium is us, and that's what makes it "real"

The number of G43s & MP44s per squad is dependent on the equipment quality setting, so you could potentially have a Conscript Ost Battalion with lots of the nice guns and Crack Waffen-SS units with the typical, common-as-dirt small arms.

Yeah sorry.
But i crushed my chear when i saw you answer and my reaction was uncontrolled.
Nope.
Something like 70 in total with the old versions of T-64 form the "stockpiles".
Thats's what i think about your position.
They dont have money for that. Kharcovs plant arealmost dead all its good engeneirs are reataired are long ago coz they have no payment for they work during 2000s.
UA need at least 5 year to rebuild its military industry, but they can do it only if they will have a realy huge money bag. Thats simple.
I never said something like that.
All i said what they didnt do it in right numbers ever for they CTO. And as Kalugin said they dont only need good stuff, they need motivated and trained professionals with at least 6 month training. Current UA consripts have only 3.
The fun thing what UA  president said what they catualy produse them. lol
And that is true.
Russia cant won all out WW2 style war against NATO and even US. US just have more cannon folder.
To have more proffesioanls.
Like it happend in US. In France. In UK.
Thats normal for the modern world.
I have many friend in Ukraine. One of them from Crimea, some from Kharov and one from Kiev. I know what they are thinking about.
Some of them hate Putin but all of them hate Poroshenko due to total idiotism of his goverment.
 

CPT Eric Farmer felt his gut turn to stone.  His company team, the Blackknights, had just linked up with the remnants of the Speed and Power Scout PLT, and Farmer could see Outlaw 16’s blasted and scorched track in the woodline ahead of him.  He couldn’t see the bumper number at this range, but it was the only Bradley supposed to be in front of him, and his gunner confirmed the bumper number through his sight.  Farmer and LT Upham were close – he had been Farmer’s 2nd Platoon Leader for over a year, before being handpicked by LTC Falkner to take over the scouts.  Farmer was proud of Upham’s competent leadership and quiet competence, and wondered whether he had survived.  It only increased his fury as he watched the spectacle unfolding in front of him.
 

 
His mech-heavy company team had popped up from an overgrown sunken cart-track, run up the back of a slight hill and popped out onto a small open hillock looking straight towards Krichek.  They had seen some signs of the many smoke pillars climbing into the sky, but had missed entirely the fact that they were suddenly in direct contact with the Russians literally as they were deploying from column into tactical formation.  Still bunched though, there fire was doubly lethal.  The first Farmer – in the middle front – knew of it, was both his 1st and 3rd Platoon leaders screaming “Contact, Front, Out!” nearly simultaneously over the net, and then the sudden flurry of firing.  He was up on the hill himself and quickly shifted his gunner onto the BMPs in the nearest field, but by the time they had set it up, both were already flaming.  He ordered a quick burst at some fleeing infantry, but they were still catching it from the tankers’ fifty cals, and he instead concentrated on the company-level fight, calling on all his PLTs to dismount even sections and bound forward odd.  Then he got his FST on the net and worked a fire mission on the most prominent structure he could readily see – a farm complex at about 1400m.  Maybe a bit close, but Eric figured on taking a few minutes here to ensure he wasn’t waltzing into anything and had firmly established ownership of this approach to Kricheck before he advanced further. 
 

 
Elsewhere on the battlefield...
 

 

 

 
But...
 

I do find it amusing that showing a photo of an unattractive government spokesperson qualifies as evidence here.
 
Could we get back to the actual scenario stuff?  The RUSSIUA STRONK is a bit tiresome, if there's something relevant and incorrect about it, cool, but simple disbelief and "glorious T80!" is not worth the text.
 
So more or less, more H1ND,ikalugin and Steve.  

Does the engine seems cleaner? faster? That said, the units SEEM to not do as many DUMB things (path'ing).. sadly tho, we still get one-shot wonder "Heinz" with his 88mm Pak 41/43 penetrating an IS-2 at 4k M, but I digress..
 
I was trying to explain how hard it can be to modify an existing game engine and move it up to higher and higher fidelities today with another friend of mine in software development.  It's not easy, and I think we see this quite clearly with CMRT vs. CMBN. Not to say that CMBN isn't fun, it's just that when I play CMRT I have a much better experience with larger maps, cleaner color palette, etc. (I know you can make large maps in CMBN, but the speed and fidelity aren't there IMO).
 
I wonder what other people think?  I mean, I am a Ost Front fan boy, but still, I enjoy the challenge of Normandy and the different TO&E in that game (as well as it's lost cousin CMFI), but i'm left wondering if the game experience isn't as good as when I play H2H on CMRT.. which I love to do and it seems to have a far better outcome game wise..
 
Do others agree? I mean, how hard is it to add tank riders to CMBN? I would think NOT hard, but clearly hard enough that it wasn't added.. and it wasn't because of military doctrine..it was because the bits and bytes don't play nice together I'm sure.. I mean, add it in in CMRT and not in CMBN? 
 
Not trolling.. rather curious if others think the game experience in CMRT is better than the other titles in the CMx2 engine?

JasonC,

Sadly, once again you signally failed to address T-34/85's request for assistance.

Turning now to your latest nonanswer, I note as follows:

The Beda Fomm tests pitted two different rounds, fired from the same gun type, at he same range, against an M13/40. It would appear that, since neither tank caught fire or exploded, that the vehicles weren't combat loaded. That the testers put filled sandbags on every crew seat tells me, as someone who did this kind of stuff very successfully for over 11 years and has a copy of what later became classified A-10 firing trials against a simulated, combat loaded, mannikin equipped Soviet tank company (engines running), that there was a real interest in looking at post penetration effects on crew from projectile penetration until the energy of whatever came through/was created was spent. The issue is neither ammunition stowage nor fuel, simply whether the round would penetrate (it did) and what happened to the crew as a result. I presented those results, which you promptly rejected. The APHE riddled the sandbags, but no such result was reported for the AP shot. What's so hard to understand? Yes, it penetrated the armor and cracked it , too, but there's absolutely no statement indicating it did diddly squat to the sandbags, as opposed to the APHE which "thoroughly riddled" them. It may not be obvious to you what the 2 RTR was testing at Beda Fomm, but it sure is to me.

I deliberately excluded ammunition and fuel from the discussion because I knew that your next rejoinder would be the British and Italians both had poor arrangements for both, thus biasing the test. Indeed, I find you have seized on what I didn't bring up in order to reject what I did! Meanwhile, you willfully ignore a plain statement supporting the lethality of APHE which detonated inside the fighting compartment.

"tests proved that the yellow painted explosive armour piercing projectile penetrates the armour at 900 yards and bursts inside with very destructive effect. Sand bags placed on the crew's seats were well riddled with splinters"

What part of "...and bursts inside with very destructive effect..." do you not get?

We now leave the realms of post combat lethality testing and enter the world of battle damage analysis. For the record, I have thoroughly read the classified JMEM on battle damage to tanks in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War. This, unlike your cited analyses on Merkava damage in Lebanon in 1982, is directly relevant in that it's absolutely certain tank cannon from both sides were used, as was WW II type ammunition. No long rod penetrators, no Chobham armor (or better), no DU! So, I know what I'm talking about when I talk about damage to tanks by various weapons. I've seen what HEAT does (clean hit) and doesn't (hit any number of brackets and flanges outside the tank, triggering it prematurely and saving the tank). I've seen what the Centurion's 20 pdr firing APDS could do, and I've seen the awful spall effects from HESH on a T-55's turret (pie dish sized hole clean through the radio from the inside rear wall of the turret).

From the German report Jentz cited

"As a rule, this effect is of annihilating power when using armor-piercing shells with a high-explosive charge. When using hard core projectiles, steel or soft iron core projectiles, or hollow-charge projectiles, completely annihilating effect cannot always be expected with a single shot, because the crew, located in the dead space of the tank, cannot be hit under certain conditions."

From the above, which is based solely on cases of complete penetration, it should be transparently clear that only APHE possesses "annihilating power," a characterization NOT given to AP shot!

Now, turning to the case of German HE vs. British tank

"Penetration of a British tank by a German armor-piercing shell frequently resulted in crew members being wounded as well as destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire. Not until 1942 did the British investigate the cause of fires in the tanks and began to install armored bins to protect the ammunition."

Then we have

"As recorded by Major G/B. Jarrett in May 1942: The German projectiles which have caused the greatest amount of damage to Allied tanks in the Western Desert campaigns have been the A. P. -H. E. type in 47 mm, 50 mm, 75 mm and 88 mm respectively. These projectiles at long ranges need only attain a partial penetration and the explosive charge can complete the destruction of at least the tank crew. At closer ranges the destructive effect is very great, where in many cases destruction of the tank is permanent."

The above is both good news and bad news for you. It explicitly talks about the partial penetration scenario you hate and what that means, but then goes on to reinforce the direct KE impact part of your argument.

Now, we'll look at the conclusions drawn when firing the turned down 7.5cm PzGr 39 at the German tanks. These converted APHE shells are the principal reason Major Jarrett, who was our Ordnance liaison to the British and had full access to their combat reports, damage assessments and latest war trophies (the 88 he found and shipped home), was decorated by them.

"When the 7.5 cm K.Gr.rot Pz. was fitted to an American casing and fired from the 75 mm M2 gun, in May 1942 Lt.Col. Gruver reported: Each German AP-HE round fired may safely be presumed to have put the tank out of action. In this connection it was noted that the fuze functioned perfectly, that is to say it functioned only after penetration and then always in the fighting compartment where the most damage is done. Parts also frequently penetrated into the engine compartment."

Gruver neglected to qualify that statement with "which hits the tank and penetrates the fighting compartment's armor," but you get the idea.

Jentz also provides this

"The Italian 47 mm armor-piercing round contained a high explosive filler with a delay fuze. Penetration of a British tank by a 47 mm Italian armor piercing shell frequently resulted in crew members being wounded as well as destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire."

So, over and over again the various data support the killing power of APHE, so what happens when the British fire the 2-pdr AP shot into the Panzer III and Panzer IV?

"Penetration of a Pz.Kpfw.lll or IV by 2-pounder AP-Shot fired at 600 to 1500 yards range frequently resulted in crew members being wounded but infrequently resulted in destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire."

Contrast that with what APHE is consistently reported doing to the British tanks and crews!

The Aero Armor series book on the DAK showed a Panzer IV/D(?) in which two closely spaced 2-pdr shot had come through the driver's plate in line with his face and just above his head. The result? Driver had a head bandage and was still driving! Not exactly an instant kill, is it? In turn, this picture independently confirms combat analyses.

"Of those Pz.Kpfw.lll and IV knocked out in combat by AP-Shot, fewer than 20 percent were destroyed by fire or damaged so severely that they couldn't be repaired."

So, at that time, at least, Axis APHE was markedly more lethal against both British tanks and crews than was AP shot fired by the British against the Germans. It's also clear, from remarks from both sides, that when the Germans were able to recover their tanks, far more of theirs were fixable and could return to combat.

The Beda Fomm tests showed any reasonable observer that 2-pdr APHE was far more destructive to the crew and the tank than was 2-pdr AP shot. The other results cited indicate that adding ammunition and fuel to the equation only worsened the gap. Recall that Playfair completely reversed himself in the third volume of the HMSO official history of the war in the Mediterranean, concluding the German short 5cm gun was markedly superior to the 2-pdr. And the 5cm generally fired what round in armored warfare? PzGr 39. APHE!

Regards,

John Kettler

JasonC,

Your ability to take a direct statement of fact and distort it beyond all recognition is simply extraordinary. What part of the conclusions from the direct comparison between 2-pdr shot and 2-pdr shell was unclear to you? This was an apples to apples comparison, with the only real difference being the projectiles. For the sake of the argument, let's ignore both fuel (which is an issue in that certain tanks, such as the T-34, didn't have engine compartments fully sealed off from the fighting compartment) and ammunition vulnerability issues. We're just looking at crew casualties. Quoting Jentz again from my post

"4.1.1.1 BRITISH GUNS AGAINST AXIS TANKS

Directly after the battle of Beda Fomm, the 2nd R.T.R. conducted tests to determine the vulnerability of the Italian M. 13-40 tanks. They reported on 14 February 1941: During the morning tests were carried of the effect of the two types of 2-pounder ammunition on Italian M13 tanks. These tests proved that the yellow painted explosive armour piercing projectile penetrates the armour at 900 yards and bursts inside with very destructive effect. Sand bags placed on the crew's seats were well riddled with splinters. The black painted solid A.P. projectile also penetrates at 900 yards and causes large cracks in the armor."

It says, to my best understanding of English, that the 2-pdr AP shell penetrated the Italian tank and, upon detonation inside the target tank, the splinters riddled the sandbags representing the crew. Signal by its absence is the lack of any similar result for the 2-pdr shot.

In case that was unclear, consider this

4.1.1.2 EFFECT AFTER PENETRATION

The destructive effect of the 2-pounder AP-Shot after penetration was based solely on whatever kinetic energy remained in the solid shot, shot fragments if it shattered, and/or fragments of armor plate broken off by the hit."

From that, follows this

"Penetration of a Pz.Kpfw.lll or IV by 2-pounder AP-Shot fired at 600 to 1500 yards range frequently resulted in crew members being wounded"

Now, contrast that with the riddling of ALL the sandbags when the 2-pdr HE shell exploded, as designed, in the fighting compartment of the M13 in the head-to-head Beda Fomm tests.

So, what you deride as a "firecracker" is surprisingly to you, unsurprisingly to me, devastating to the crew. From a debating standpoint, I'd argue you haven't legs left to stand upon!

You very carefully quote only those parts of the report which support you, while deflecting attention from the real issue, which is the lethality of even partially penetrating AP shell, which then detonates, to the crew.

Now, turning to various red herrings you've offered up, how is Israeli combat experience in Lebanon, with the super heavily protected and survivability engineered Merkava, relevant to the discussion at hand? Were the Merkavas hit even attacked by cannon fire?

Further confusing the isssue is that the design feature which gave the tank its name (Merkava, chariot, because the horses (engine) are in front) and has to be gotten through, together with its firewall, after the armored envelope is no longer in the way, drastically reduce the likelihood of any penetration of the crew compartment. So, the Israel design works in combat. Yawn.

As for the M1, recall first of all that U.S. firing tests in the mid 1980s, against an export model T-72, found that even our best 105mm round was tactically useless from the front. This led to the crash fielding of the 120 mm gun fired XM829 "Silver Bullet," which is profoundly different from WW II AP shot or shell. Not only is its roughly 40mm (2-pdr diameter) dart denser than even the tungsten which had preceded, it is pyrophoric! When it penetrates, it creates enormous showers of sparks. a huge and abrupt temperature rise, and highly energetic and dangerous flying particles from the long rod penetrator, not to mention being a toxic inhalation threat.

You also neglect to note the dramatic rise in muzzle velocities since WW II. That self same T-72 smoothbore 125mm gun fires its long rod penetrator at 1800 m/sec, versus 792 m/sec for the 2-pdr. As you know, the real driver in the KE equation is velocity squared, but the actual penetrator weight is also much higher for the Silver Bullet than its humble WW II predecessor. Thus, I think your basis for argument is codswallop, if that.

Frankly, I'm disappointed that, rather than exhibiting remarkable obduracy and intransigence in the face of hard fact you seem unable, for whatever reason, to accept, you didn't instead address the WW II terminal effectiveness issues for Russian ammunition that T-34/85 needs and with which you seem so familiar.

Regards,

John Kettler

T-34/85,

JasonC's view is correct provided the AP projectile actually significantly overmatches the armor. If it's AP shot, it can lose so much energy that it doesn't get through at all, and a partial penetration won't do much, as I've indicated. Whereas a partial penetration by AP shell can be disastrous, as seen in both the Beda Fomm tests and other evidences I cited, and in the Western Desert at the time, generally was.

From what I've seen, post penetration lethality of the PzGr 39 was more than adequate against the T-34, and the T-34/76 could certainly kill the Panzer IV, but JasonC knows far more than I do about the penetration performance of the Russian guns and ammunition. He's written at length on how the Russians got screwed in this area in CMBB. This, though, should help.

http://english.battlefield.ru/armor-penetration-curves.html

The T-34/76 in particular, even though diesel powered, suffered from very poor interior layout, which made it vulnerable to explosion following penetration.

This link will give you an idea of how the huge range advantage the T-34/76 enjoyed at the beginning of the war gradually shifted toward the Germans later on. It doesn't speak to terminal lethality, but it does give you some idea of what killing ranges were for targets engaged frontally.

http://english.battlefield.ru/t-34.html

In case the point made about the range was missed earlier, please see the combat range conclusions reached following Kursk here (third paragraph)

http://english.battlefield.ru/t-34-85.html

Here are Russian penetration figures, using different criteria than the Germans used.
Specifically included is the BR-350A. Please take note of Potapov's comment at the bottom of the second table regarding ammunition quality 1941-1943. He was a contributor to the data base for CMBB.

http://english.battlefield.ru/specification-and-armor-penetration.html

Hope the above help.

Regards,

John Kettler

T34/85,

I have a great deal of respect for the depth and breadth of JasonC's knowledge, but I must disagree with him.

He's free to "sincerely doubt" all he wants, but combat experience from both sides in North Africa, and firing trials conducted by the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment at Beda Fomm tell a different tale. APHE which penetrates even halfway into the fighting compartment and detonates is devastating to the crew--ignoring ammunition storage issues and other matters later corrected.

Long piece of my post here

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105933&page=2

I quote myself in an excerpt from a much longer post lamentably lost in the Great Server Meltdown. The combat lethality of even the German 37mm AP shell was high if even a partial penetration of the fighting compartment could be achieved.

"It was not until 1942 did the British investigate the high incidence of fires in British tanks post penetration. Major G.B. Jarrett in May 1942: “The German projectiles which have caused the greatest amount of damage to allied tank in the western desert campaigns have been the A.P.-H.E. type in 47mm, 50mm, 75mm and 88mm respectively. These projectiles at long range need only attain a partial penetration and the explosive charge can complete the destruction of at least the tank crew. At closer ranges the destructive effect is very great, where in many cases destruction of the tank is permanent.”……….. Of those mark III and IV knocked out in combat by AP-shot, fewer than 20 percent were destroyed by fire or damaged so severely that they couldn’t be repaired."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every now and then I get really lucky. Here is Jeff Duquette's detailed post to me with all the pertinent data. (Fair Use)

http://www.battlefront.com/community...ht=2pdr&page=4

Hey John K:

Some of what you maybe recalling might have been from your readings in Jentz. There is a reference by Jentz to G/B Jerratt (I have included it with the other scanned material below).

Best Regards
Jeff

From: Thomas Jentz “Tank Combat in North Africa, The Opening Rounds”. Schiffer Publishing Limited, 1998

From Page-44

4.1.1.1 BRITISH GUNS AGAINST AXIS TANKS

Directly after the battle of Beda Fomm, the 2nd R.T.R. conducted tests to determine the vulnerability of the Italian M. 13-40 tanks. They reported on 14 February 1941: During the morning tests were carried of the effect of the two types of 2-pounder ammunition on Italian M13 tanks. These tests proved that the yellow painted explosive armour piercing projectile penetrates the armour at 900 yards and bursts inside with very destructive effect. Sand bags placed on the crew's seats were well riddled with splinters. The black painted solid A.P. projectile also penetrates at 900 yards and causes large cracks in the armor.

From Pages 46-47

4.1.1.2 EFFECT AFTER PENETRATION

The destructive effect of the 2-pounder AP-Shot after penetration was based solely on whatever kinetic energy re¬mained in the solid shot, shot fragments if it shattered, and/or fragments of armor plate broken off by the hit. Starting with the design of the Pz.Kpfw.l, German designers had taken extra precautions to reduce the probability of fire as a result of penetration. Fuel tanks were separated from the crew com¬partment by a firewall (about 5 mm thick). In the case of the Pz.Kpfw.ll, the fuel tank, located on the right side of the crew i compartment, was isolated by 8 mm thick armor plate. As a further precaution, the main gun ammunition in the Pz.Kpfw.lll and IV was stowed in bins whose sides were 4 to 6 mm thick. In addition, main gun ammunition in the Pz.Kpfw.lll and IV was stored low in the hull. Thus, even when a 2-pounder AP-Shot managed to penetrate through the armor, it needed suf¬ficient residual kinetic energy to penetrate the firewall or am¬munition bins in order to destroy the tank by setting it on fire. Penetration of a Pz.Kpfw.lll or IV by 2-pounder AP-Shot fired at 600 to 1500 yards range frequently resulted in crew mem¬bers being wounded but infrequently resulted in destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire. Of those Pz.Kpfw.lll and IV knocked out in combat by AP-Shot, fewer than 20 percent were destroyed by fire or damaged so severely that they couldn't be repaired.

====================================
Below is Jentz discussing German AP-HE projectiles – from pages 48-49.
====================================

As stated in a German report on armor-penetration curves: Basically all penetration data are valid for projectiles of good quality. The estimate of penetration for "worst" projectiles is possible only with great difficulty. The penetration can spread over a very large range below the given value. The regulations for acceptance of projectiles stipulate that a certain number of projectiles (1/2%) will be presented for inspection. Two-thirds of the projectiles which have been fired against armor plate, must satisfy the given conditions. Based on past experience, it can be stated that the largest part of the deliveries satisfy these conditions. 100% assurance is not given; it may always be expected that a small percentage do not achieve the specified penetrating ability, because of shattering prematurely. Also the explosive charge in these shattered projectiles will not detonate.

The effect of the projectile inside the tank and the probability of hitting the target are not considered in these graphical charts; thus only the complete penetration with the to¬tal effect inside the tank is considered. As a rule, this effect is of annihilating power when using armor-piercing shells with a high-explosive charge. When using hard core projec¬tiles, steel or soft iron core projectiles, or hollow-charge projectiles, completely annihilating effect cannot always be expected with a single shot, because the crew, located in the dead space of the tank, cannot be hit under certain conditions.
A limited effect, without piercing the tank by the projectile (effect produced by back-spalling of armor plate and punching holes (Stanzpfropfen) is frequently achieved with plates that are about 10% thicker than the thickness presented in the graphs.


AND from page 54

4.1.2.2 EFFECT AFTER PENETRATION

In all calibers of 3.7 cm and above, the normal armor-piercing round designed by the Germans contained a high explosive filler with a delay fuze. Penetration of a British tank by a German armor-piercing shell frequently resulted in crew members being wounded as well as destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire. Not until 1942 did the British investigate the cause of fires in the tanks and began to install armored bins to protect the ammunition.

As recorded by Major G/B. Jarrett in May 1942: The German projectiles which have caused the greatest amount of damage to Allied tanks in the Western Desert campaigns have been the A. P. -H. E. type in 47 mm, 50 mm, 75 mm and 88 mm respectively. These projectiles at long ranges need only attain a partial penetration and the explosive charge can complete the destruction of at least the tank crew. At closer ranges the destructive effect is very great, where in many cases destruction of the tank is permanent.

When the 7.5 cm K.Gr.rot Pz. was fitted to an American casing and fired from the 75 mm M2 gun, in May 1942 Lt.Col. Gruver reported: Each German AP-HE round fired may safely be presumed to have put the tank out of action. In this con¬nection it was noted that the fuze functioned perfectly, that is to say it functioned only after penetration and then always in the fighting compartment where the most damage is done. Parts also frequently penetrated into the engine compartment.

The destructive effect of the Pzgr.40 after penetration was based solely on whatever kinetic energy remained in shot fragments when it shattered and/or fragments of armor plate broken off by the hit.


Jentz Refering to Italian AP-HE, page-57

4.1.3.2 EFFECT AFTER PENETRATION
The Italian 47 mm armor-piercing round contained a high explosive filler with a delay fuze. Penetration of a British tank by a 47 mm Italian armor piercing shell frequently resulted in crew members being wounded as well as destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire.
__________________

End Post Excerpt

I went round and round with a whole bunch of people over this issue of APHE lethality over AP shot, and the Beda Fomm tests are conclusive, in my view, with regard to crew damage. The targets and other controllable parameters were identical, yet the results clearly showed that APHE trashed the sandbag crew simulators, whereas AP shot did not.

All the opinions and belief in the world can't reverse that fact, especially when the man who was decorated for saving the British butt at Gazala, by providing graze action fuzes for Grant HE shells lacking same and, more particularly, carefully extracting the 7.5cm PzGr 39 projectiles and machining down their driving bands on a lathe (on a spin armed shell) and fitting those to American cartridge cases, gave the Grant an effective tank killing round, says the same thing as the Beda Fomm tests showed. You have the quotes above. The story of the research is covered here on pages 23-33, with the decoration for Major Jarrett mentioned on page 31.

http://books.google.com/books?id=dJZ_3tBJUv4C&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=g.b.+jarrett,+ordnance&source=bl&ots=tXyePFqxVS&sig=pM6Kt0k3fEetkLQ1URUKs7UfcJk&hl=en#v=onepage&q=g.b.%20jarrett%2C%20ordnance&f=false

So, you now know, after reading the material at the link right above, the PzGr 39 was so good we converted it so we could use it. You also know the AP shell originally provided with the Grant lacked both a cap and a ballistic cap. It was AP, rather than APCBC--huge difference.

And here we have the BR350A, a strange duck of an AP shell if ever there was one.

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=31015

As you can see, it has no cap, but does have a ballistic cap, together with a remarkable appendage beneath that ballistic cap. In looking at the fuze, I can see what it would pop out during impact, for much of it is already out. Contrast that with the PzGr39, seen here in cutaway.

Note particularly the entire fuze body is inside the shell. Nothing's exposed except the base!

http://media.photobucket.com/image/pzgr39/sszza4/forums/88cmPzgr39-43.jpg

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

Save my eyes from straining at the tiny text and briefing pictures. Have been asking for this for a while and believe it is a really basic requirement.
It certainly stops me from reading the briefings a lot of the time because my monitor is not an old 1024 x 768 one.
 
Also would be nice to be able to hold down a hot key to speed over the map with the cursor. Some maps are a real challenge to get over fast.
Time is both money and holiday leisure time is worth double.
 
I really hope that these features will get the attention they deserve. They are not just window dressing but affect the basic functionality of the game.
 
Everything else including the new features I have been watching in Chris ND's videos look amazing and have got me interested! Thus my request for the features above.
This game is one of a kind and with no hint of close combat 3D and what it will bring there is simply nothing like it!
 
P.S. Terrain still looks shocking. I hope the textures are changed for this modern iteration.
 
P.S.2. Does this one have a proper campaign map this time around to bind the campaigns properly. I remember reading about campaigns being more advanced and playable this time around.

This topic has been discussed many times before. Those conversations can be searched for.
 
The short answer is that BF has looked into this very carefully and the cons of being on Steam outweigh the pros. So, there is zero chance CM will be on Steam, unless Steam makes changes to its policies that would alter the pro/con balance.

It would also mean Battlefront can get rid of its DRM system, saving the money it costs them and saving customers from the frequent problems with activations. It offers customers infinite re-downloading and possible Steam Workshop access for easy access to mods. And Steam has had an off-line mode for many years now.
 
 
Yeah yeah, I've heard the same excuses a dozen times before from other companies. And inevitably, once they actually try Steam, it turns out most of the cons were bull****, profits skyrocket and those companies can't get enough of Steam.
 
Look at Matrix Games. For years they claimed, just like Battlefront does, that their many years of publishing experience and all their sales data proved that going to Steam would only hurt their profits. Customers kept pushing them to Steam however, and now that they actually tried it, it turned out all their data and experience was quite simply wrong. Nearly every new game they publish gets a Steam release these days.
 
If Battlefront is smart, they'll embrace the future, as so many others have done and profited by. A game like Black Sea would top the Steam sale charts for at least a week, instead of being confined to obscurity on this tiny little corner of the internet. But as so often is being said, most wargaming developers and publishers are scared of both change and success.

The Teacher is dissatisfied with the quality of the wine you have been sending him.  VERY dissatisfied......
 
 
Hang in there for a few turns just to show off the fancy toys.  This is actually proof of something I have always felt about CM games, it is not good scenario unless higher command bleeped the pooch and underestimated the opposition.  Panzrldr's higher has not done that, unless you were in the Ukrainian Third Company, and there mostly too dead to complain.  Russian higher seems to have bet to much on the ECM keeping the Americans Paralyzed.......
 
I am sure their last communication was "Die well Comrade".

Mayhem
 
http://youtu.be/vTUkgFPs3Zo
 
B company, the mech-heavy team in the north rolls over the rise and is suddenly in direct contact with BMP-3s to their east and southeast.  Some Bradleys stop, drop ramps and dismount their squads as a hedge against losing both assets to sudden fire, and to get the Javelins into the fight if necessary.  The tanks make short work of a pair of Krizentemas to the northeast, then turn their sights on the BMP-3s trying desperately to back away in the field to the southeast.  Between the Bradley's multiple TOW-IIBs and the tank fire, the Russian vehicles are overwhelmed.  We are on our way to establishing unchallenged fire superiority across the north side of Hill 347.  
 
More on the story soon...  

SPC O’Brian was good and ready. They had to reposition twice, but now he saw it clearly on the distant southern hill.  Through the thermal on his Command Launch Unit, he distinctly saw the outline of a T-90, the latest Russian tank.  He was pretty sure he saw others on the ridge behind hit, but could not see enough of them to be certain, but the vehicle closest was hull up and unmistakable. 
“Alright, Metcalf, we good?”
“Bit test was good.  We’re armed and ready,” he responded.
“Well then, here goes nothing.  Firing!”
With a dull pop, the missile left the tube, then seeming to sag in the air as its rocket motor ignited, it nosed up and flew up and away. 
“C’mon, we’re gone.”  Even before the missile had closed half the distance to the distant tank, O’Brian and Metcalf were sprinting from the launch point.  They ran a good 75 meters, then flung themselves down, snapping the empty canister from the CLU, and snapping a new heavy one in its place.  A distant ‘Boom!’ announced the arrival of their missile, but neither knew for sure how they had done.  They knew the Javelin was deadly, and trusted that they had spiked their target.  The carefully began to creep up to set up another shot.
 
http://youtu.be/YNN-FiTmyqE
 
SPC O’Brian and PVT Metcalf engage a T-90 of the Southern MRC.  They really wanted to engage the Tunguska, but could not get line of sight.  Expect this engagement, coming immediately prior to arrival of Speed and Power Main Body, should throw a nice wrench in the Russian plan.  End of video (note, I learned how to ‘pause’ though I still don’t have a video editor <sigh!>) is Brytva 21 showing what to do when your infantry target runs into a shack.  Will be curious after the match to see if this engagement caused any casualties…  or if there were any survivors!  A few end-of-turn snaps to wrap up.
 

 

 

 
At this point I am officially caught up, and am sending the main-body turn back to Bil in about an hour.  Thanks for bearing with me.

With a roar, the twin 30mm cannon spit huge bursts of lethal high-explosive shells up the street, slashing after the running infantry.  The enemy had ducked behind a hedge at the last instant, but the gunner walked the rounds along the area he thought they had gone to.  It looked as though they had run into a small shack.  Well, he would just…..
“Brytva elements, this is Orel Base, air alert, sector 7A, bearing 258 closing.  Illuminate!  Weapons free!” 
The commander instantly terminated the ground engagement, responding by training to the anti-air drill.  The search radar went from standby to narrow-beam search in less than a second, and an instant later the radar operator sang out that he had a target.  The gunner announced a lock and the whole crew heard the warble of the lock signal. The commander ordered “launch,” and the missile was away, all within mere seconds of the alert.  The 9M311 missile sped up and away, guided towards the target by commands from the launcher, which had to sustain the radar lock throughout the engagement.  This it did, and the unknown Russian aircraft jinked, but the missile’s laser-armed proximity fuze functioned.  The crew knew their missile had detonated, but none were certain they had scored a kill as they had all seen the smoke trail from their sister Strela launch from within Krichek at nearly the same instant.  But all saw the splash as the enemy aircraft hit the ground.
“Now where,” thought the commander of Brytva 21, “did those pesky infantrymen go?”
 
http://youtu.be/eFdA78fMz3A
 
As KPT Kovtun’s command BTR moves by ferrying an infantry squad to the north side of town, Brytva 22M, the surviving Strela launcher in the middle of town engages unknown Russian aircraft with two missile volley.   Note the splash of the downed aircraft beyond Starov village at the end of the clip.
 
In Krichek, Starshiy Bondarenko was exhausted.  He and his team had run up the street, going building to building, lugging the heavy Corsar ATGM all the way.  While a fairly light weapon given its capability, light is a relative term and they had run fast.  KPT Kovtun had directed them to reposition to face the threat of a Russian BMP coming across the river – they were amphibious, and could swim from a suitable bank, making the crossing in moments.  Bondarenko and the team climbed up to the second floor and began setting up, but instantly Sasha cried out. 
“Infantry coming!” punctuated by several short bursts as he cut loose with his AK-74. 
“Sasha, stop!  You’ll give away our position!  We have to wait for the BMP!”  too late he warned, as the very BMP itself, slid up from behind a fold in the ground actually in front of the infantry Sasha had engaged.  A large Russian shell, a stray perhaps, from the ongoing bombardment, slammed into the ground directly in front of the vehicle.  As the smoke cleared, the BMP gunner immediately pressed his triggers, slamming 30mm shells into the building where they sheltered.  Sasha fell with a cry, and an instant later Bondarenko mashed the firing stud on the Corsar and felt the tremendous whoosh and slap as the missile screamed from the launcher.  The range was just beyond arming range for the missile, and it detonated hard on the BMP, instantly setting off secondary explosions that consumed the Russian track.  Bondarenko knelt and cradled his arm as he realized it was torn by shrapnel.  But he realized it wasn’t bad, and quickly raised his head for another look at the blazing BMP.  In that instant the BMP’s platoon mate on the far bank loosed a quick burst that caught the young gunner square, shrapnel tearing into his chest, neck and shoulder.  Only his body armor saved him from instant death, and his life would now hang on the skills of the medics in town and the speed of their rescue by US forces. 
 
http://youtu.be/yc9RMo87KSQ

There is a joke about a Polish soldier who finds an old bottle on the banks of the Vistula. When he opens it, surew enough out pops a genie wqho grants the Pole the traditional three wishes.
 
"For my first wish," says the Pole "I would like the Chinese Army to invade Poland".
 
Months later, the invasion over the genie returns to grant the sencod wish
 
"For my secondwish," says the Pole "I would like the Chinese Army to invade Poland.
 
Months later, the invasion over the genie returns to grant the third wish
 
"For my third wish," says the Pole "I would like the Chinese Army to invade Poland.
 
By this time the genie is curious and asks why the Pole keeps asking for the same thing each time, thus wasting his wishes.
 
"But don't you see," says the Pole " For the Chinese army to ivade Poland three times they must pass through Russia six times!"

Privet, Komandir!
 
CiC wishes to express his displeasure at the reasons being given for the delay. Crush the pocket immediately.