Liam

Bahhh Zapp! Get some guts m8 We miss your arse whooping style One of these Nights if you Want Avatar I'll give you deliverance I've boned up with Rambo so I'll take you out in a few matches if you feel the need, the need to bleed anyways panzies get on ISCL

Assigning units to make an order you give is intrigueing. If you recall in non turn games you can assign a unit to move, some will move on time increments. in SC2 if say you had a sub you wanted to take from Hamburg without micromanaging it's path all the way to say Alexandria and it moved in a fairly linear path that would be like non-turn based game. Almost like dragging and dropping and it executes turn by turn what it would do, problem is here. this is turned based, making an RTS or any kind of extreme programming like that would sapp the rest of the game. If others could come in and make add-ons it would be kewl. In other games I Play there are plenty of programmers but the SC community is relatively small. In Ages of Empires, dozens of Mods, complete alterations were made. In 1 they turned they changed every unit, terrain, building, etc... That's extensive stuff. But there are tens of thousands of Ages players, While there are hundreds if just but max a few thousand Steady SCers. Same with Hex Wargames, a lack of #s for such indepth things and a lack of 'programmers' I'd personally love to see it all

MidEast Philosphy in a Nutshell: Support our Soldats, they're fighting men that would gladly see you all dead. Support Our Leaders, they're not Pattons, MacArthurs, etc... but they're good... IF WE DON'T FREE these oppressed people who will? They have no will or ability to fight for themselves. Despite the Ill Will, the Cost, The Blood..We're winning, just get used to casualties, they're a fact of war. What the enemy wants is for you give up, that's why their waging this cowardly war. If we were WW2 Russians or Germans, we wouldn't have Laserguided bombs, Civilian Deathtoll worries, or any of that other stuff. We're not bad, we're the good guys... As far as Allied Strategy in the MidEast, it's too expensive... The Brits can't afford it... I always smash the Allies if the Allies are holding it, then the Axis already lost without some dumbutt miracle like a perfectly time Sea Lion

Blashy, Everyone has their good and their bad. I'm sorry for bashing yours... I have my opinions, and I'm judgemental about just about everywhere.. There are no Utopias...

Sorry Night! I just love debate and contraversy too, especially on the topic. Which is what I think what you mean, off topic stuff is annoying and belongs elsewhere! i.e. "The Germans could've won if they would've had a Sound Military Planner, built up Industry and the Kriegsmarine!" "They Lacked the Production and Numbers of the Allies, Never!" "Bahhh, Pro-Allied Commi, what-if?"

The Winter War could easily be simulated with the Baltic Annexations a duo annextion of Territory giving the Russians a hex or two of Land and costing them some Men and equipment? Perhaps the Allies could be given the option increasing the Possibility the Fins stay Neutral and Russia getting a couple bonus Units? Would be neat but an add on? This isn't far off the Balkans I guess it was a rather small scale in comparison with the Rest of the World. Even the Japanese venture in the Far East few years earlier?

got a G/F living in Quebec. Says it's gorgeous, but the crime is outrageous. Not the Violent Crime like USA<though violent crime is stepping up to the bat>, but all the other kinds. It's sad really that one of the only other French speaking Regions of the World aside from France has to be so tainted by a weak Goverment, Corruption and a lack of Modern Laws, Ideals, Principals. I think this is a sign of selfishness of the Higher Classes, the old world Aristocracy, and missing "good People" I have seen this so much in my own Country USA. The Degradation of Modern Society. Sadly Canada has ignored some of their problems, and brushes them under the carpet.

What about Minor Towns? Little Cities, they dot the Map and the World. Why can't some smaller armies pull plunder from them? I know this is a grand strategic level but don't you find a bit off when a unit is sitting over a tile/hex that you know supports 200,000 individuals yet can't keep a 10,000 man unit from starving to death?

Ev, it's true noone really knows what Stalin murdered. Didn't mean just during the purges, and noone knows if what he did was actually for a good reason either? heh he executed so many "questionable" people who was left to fight a civil war or to oppose him. Saddam mirrors his sort of TerrorRule. Being the Victor of WW2 I suppose we'll never know who was a bigger Monster, Hitler had bigger Horns but did he have a bigger Hand in senseless Murder? I'm not sure, but both definitely thinned out the Manpower in their nations unneccessarily. 50 Mil is a massive estimate, I've heard of them finding millions of skeletons on either Discovery or National Geographic outside of Moscow or was it Leningrad in a mass burial ground... I do feel that Tens of Millions went though and many others do too. Here is a site with an interesting topic on Communist Murders, figures. Just discussion but backs up my initial claims of a "Massive Amount" I don't think Stalin cared much about losing Manpower, look what his purges did to his Officer Corp, and look what you said about his son. Many instance of his total disregard for Human life. I remeber a move based on Stalin, made for HBO I believe, I remeber they refused him entrance into WW1 as a soldier because he had disformities, that the recruiter said matched the sign of the Devil in Orthodox church! Interesting aye??? Heh! I definitely think Hitler and Stalin could have tea together! http://hnn.us/readcomment.php?id=17006

Now I'd like to see how much Manpower was executed by Hitler and Stalin between the years of 1939 and 1945? 5% of Skilled workers would be a guesstimate for Germany...at least or even more.. for Russia a massive percentage of Officer Corps, it was rumored that Stalin murdered a HOLY rough figure of 50,000,000...during his purges, modernization, paranoid phazes... Back of these figures... 1 Million German Jews, and how many Satelite or Annexed Regions that would be direct Industrial might to their side?

LETS MAKE THIS SIMPLE If you're not adding Destroyers I'm not endorsing ForcePools that're BattleStar "Galactica" Intricate Simple is that Historically a nation of a certian population, say 50,000,000 can recruit a percentage of that for military Service. That's as complicated as she needs to get Oil, Ore and other resources are sort of 'ify' and including their specs in this game will be hard. Not that I wouldn't love the extras. We could even with an editor later make them a bonus resource to simplify the effects they might have. i.e. Nations get a percentage off mechanization, initial Armored and Pilot Training Experience with half a Bar, etc... etc... etc.. for each Oil that possess or Likewise cheaper Tanks for more Ore they possess.<though wasn't ore plentiful in WW2 Europe, the industrial aspect of it was more a precise part of the whole> [ July 24, 2004, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

kewl glad to hear it Moon

Neat info :)some stuff that modern Nations haven't even employed yet in actual use.

Just a quick overview on this subject. It's developed nicely. I forgot that Divisions are different in strength not only relative to Nation but Type.<but SC is very strategic and Generalizes everything so that shouldn't matter much the techs are the only true reflection we'll likely get and perhaps a ForcePool Cap> Although we tend to generalize with the proffessionals as to the 'actual strength' of combatants no ? Support troops are as neccessary and don't neccessary have to be from 18-35 years old, or top health or strictly men even do they? So Manpower is a tricky question. During the last days of the Reich and during Barbarossa I know plenty of women were used for Manpower. As well as young boys.. Germany had relatively a small population to Russia and USA. Meanwhile France and England were similar to Germany. So Germany had to focus on Quality not Quantity, but really in the end I doubt it mattered. They were short of the "VERY" Vital equipment for winning a War. That was Fighter aicraft and well trained Units with the Oil to do that. So was the Manpower pool ever a question for any Major aside from England? I doubt it... Perhaps towards the end for the Reich but well, they were digging from the bottom more and more but the lower quality troops died or surrendered faster<not always the Hitler Youth fought hard as hell> so Nazis and Commies both recruited well, better than the Allies IMO USA had no lack of Manpower though, nor did Japan<only a lack of Mechanization> Also initially the Mobilization of the USA was pathetic for such a Massive Nation. Their equipment was crap, their only aces were their Navy and Airforce, one which had be maulled by the Japs. Meanwhile Germany though they started with paper tanks, gained experience and an edge with each conquest and annexation. Russia similarly after losing Millions tended to learn a lot? The USA shouldn't start the game with what she does in 1941. She didn't have that, nor did Britian have much to offer. The Germans and French IMO are the only really true reflective Forces in SC original at all. Perhaps having Event Units appear over time would be more accurate then just assigning them to a nation a feature unavailable in SC. [ July 22, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

Give me Tiles any day. So long as the game is kewl and rocks. Hexes and Tiles aren't sooooo different, as with territorial/province setups. I remeber some of the old SSI Wargames were Tilelike and I prefered it. In the end you've only got so many directions you can attack in. It's a setup. Provinces would really rock, but that would be such a complexity to create that it would take years to design the gameboard. I hope Hubert doesn't allow Air to kill Ground units, as far as retreat rules are concerned. I will not every play SC2 in a scenario where that is possible.

as you can hear a massive amount of US Forces. US was never truly mobilized either, what you're speaking of under 100 divisions is a bare bones force in comparison with what the Russians Fielded. I heard that they had upwards of 350-400? Am I correct against less than half as many German ones?

Be interesting to have some more cities Germany in SC Original is rather Wimpy IndustrialWise. Did Spain have any precious metals whatsoever to speak of during the WW2 Era? Plus Russia gets far too much Raw Materials and Industrial Might in comparison with USA. USA was more Industrial no? Regardless of their Japanese Conflict

Hey Moon, since I'm a proffessional On-Line Gamer do I get a free Copy for Betaing the game? If I promise to fill a quota of discovering 10 Bugs Independantly?

I heard rumors that SC2 was going to be cancelled? Is that true? That would be a real shame, if the project is too big you need to get some more hands involved. What I see from the Screenshots is a half finished product and to go that far seems off.

Retributar, Noone is saying the bombing wasn't effective, think what D-Day '43 would've done to the German War Machine vs thousand of Lancasters and B-17s? Firebombing and terrorizing German citizens. It would've beat the Germans outright instead of hampering them and slowly cutting suffocating them. Going for the Vipers Neck isntead of cutting of pieces of his Tail bit by bit... I think personally if my Goal was to conquor you fast and to knock you out of a War it would be with Straight up Battlefield Arms. As Shaka mentioned Tactical Air to ground Missions aimed at destroying the enemies Land Units and freeing up space was vital. There were so many Leaders before the War who spoke of winning Wars without Land units. Germans couldn't do it in BOB, and Americans and British however much they may have crippled German Industry an Production didn't win that way. Japan was a bit different story. I would likely say the Nukes had a huge morale impact, but weren't much more damaging than a typical Bombing Run on Toyko, I think our conventionals did as much damage in #s at the time.

Edwin, just as Land units like a corps can block you from moving a unit up and opening up the FOW so should air, Totally 100% Agreed. If you send a recon plane in and 100 Fighters are there to meet it in every tile, it's unlikely to reveal much information

Retributar, all this is very valid. UK/USA/USSR Production was massive, the Germans needed to meet the Allies Numbers to win. The Strategic bombing did effect them, but I have to argue, what would these percentages converted into Amphibious Landing Craft/Troops/Tanks/trucks/Artillery/etc... for a 2nd front of been like? The Brits attempted an early landing but got cold feet so it seems to me that the Air War in Europe as far as strategic terms was still somewhat experimental and the land war was what finally won. It was Stalin who took Berlin and combined might of the Western Allies who liberated Western Europe. Despite losses, how early would a real D-Day have been possible? If you play SC you notice that any decent player usually doesn't delay beyond '42 or '43 and spends most of his resources on that area because in a real competitive game Russia needs relief. In Real Life Russia was winning by '43 and that was obvious to the West and Stalin believed he didn't need them really. I definitely believe Churchill and FDR feared the losses and didn't really care if Russia took the brunt of them. So D-Day 44 was definitely going to do what the AHC intended, Free what territories they felt were of high 'value'... It was a Race so to speak... However I honestly feel that France could've been liberated by '43 and German down by '44 if Allies had spent a few million lives..and I think most Historians and fellow History Lovers agree The Figures you spoke of are still interesting but Air will be still be used as a ground killer in SC2 more than a strategic Weapon... I assure you that

Bad weather was a big thing, even for transports to get across Oceans.<D-Day was delayed due to bad weather> No Aircraft flew during much of Battle of the Bulge cause bad weather. It's a huge factor in Europe

Interesting topic. Just to add at least 2 cents in here. Aircraft spotting is tricky. When do you stop it? In WW2 the Max that the best Long Range bombers ever reached were the US Strategic Bombers on Japan. Even had they needed some fairly close Islands to hit the Target. Partly why some of our men sacrificed their lives on Iwo Jima, 600 Miles from Japan. However, even owning a lot of these strategic Islands didn't derive a whole lot of Info. Strato Bombers usually use formations, and the reason being is safety in #s. They use a Formation to maximize their MG power against Enemy Fighters and to also Maximize the hitting Power on the Ground. Confusion is notorious in such missions due to the above reasons and they stayed together to make sure they got to the their target and got home safe they weren't Spotters, or Recon Artists. There were plentiful other aicraft specifically designed for this purpose and they flew higher or more evasive and usually alone... with cameras and other such equipment. I don't recall the precise names, but they can be looked up... Strato Bombers effective spotting should be low low low... Individually their Crew is not built for Recon, it's built for bombing, period. Fighters on the other hand have a free hand, they're much more diverse machine and very independant. Some of that ole fashioned WW1 style Lone Wolf stuff. They have great visibility and speed and manueverability. Much more likely to peg a target. They do have many roles they play and are assigned Missions, some of which were recon but I don't know of many Bombers unless converted to a different Role, did what some are suggesting. Sending out 1000 B-17s for Naval spotting, I'm sure it's possible but why? 150 P-47s with their speed could cover a much larger area and wouldn't be a costly loss nor an obvious Blimp for the enemy. Don't forget The Enemy is spotting your spotters and shooting back if they can. So some limitations on the way bombers are used needs to be employed. They're not literally the Eyes in the Sky, they're Death from Above. Ground, Naval, Air balloons all did plenty of spotting... Only Land really did a great job of telling you precisely what was there and that's usually when they were on top of things... So Air Recon should be slackened down altogether. I think it's been discussed quite extensively. Although I must say at least 1 thing, Lancasters were smashing Berlin in '40... In SC that's impossible. Fix it Germans never developed LR Bombers to hit the Urals and think what 2000, 3000 German HE-LR Bombers could've done. The entire V-1 V-2 rocket program could've likely financed the above. Talk about knocking down Soviet production 20% and cutting their essential Transportation system off. That could've extended the War 6 Months or a Year... [ July 07, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

It's true Sea Monkey, each tile contains resources, population, industry and in the end MPPs. I doubt that SC2 break away that far from SC though, but the idea is cool as now if something has no strategic value it's pretty much freespace. It's realistic to give something per. Maybe in a future edition but I doubt that such a huge undertaking could be done now. Bases for now could be a simplistic way of making certian locations that are not cities/mines/Oil/Ports/Forts worth taking... Bases are used in SC in the Maginot and have a value. Sevastopol was more a Base than a city. Crete, would be a perfect example. Azores, Iceland, Greenland, etc...