Liam

Q, the Belgians were too late to the Pacific and other regions, they did have the Congo. They would've had more if they could've had more they just never had that chance, except the Land Grab of German possessions in Africa. I'd call that an attempt to be another Lowland Dutch Empire if I ever saw it! You just don't see it that way cause England/France/Netherlands/Portugal/Spain had already taken all the pickings. Just like the Danish were too late in that game, and the Germans and Italians were so so, but they looked to Europe instead for expansion. Belgium was just too much of a small fry for what the other Majors had done but whether you call a Nation that takes 1 Colony, or 20-30-40-50-60 Colonies an Empire, a Trading Empire, a Colonial Empire if it failed as One then was just a failure as one. It was still going after what it could get and just never had the chance to do what the other boys had done. I'd like to say, that if Belgium would've arose taken all the Lowlands, Including the Dutch, Kissed the Prussians rear and took out parts of France their Foreign Possessions with some great Leadership and luck, who knows... They may have actual Power The Nation of the USA Needs both Republican and Democrats working together. Part of the problem of our Goverment failures is that the President doesn't work both sides. You need to appease the other side, cause usually in our Country one side Dominates the Presidential and the other Dominates the House. The two Bodies that will control what sort of bills come out of the US and whether or not we goto war or not.<at least what is done there, what money is spent> Republican and Democratic, not so different from one another. Liberal or conservative. To be honest this election I'm worried about both Candidates, we're unfortunate not to have a wider selection and I'll likely refrain from Voting. Kerry, I just see bashing the hell out of Bush. Bush I just don't see as a powerful enough Speaker and Politician to do the job. So I see two men unable to fill my expectations.. I want more!!! People think the USA is bad, goto England and check our the Parliment Debates ROFL :eek: Americans are Greedy? Hmmm, Human Nature is greedy! What are you people Hindus? I'll bet the majority of us are Christian, and to be quite frank Christianity didn't get to be Uber due to sitting on their butts watching the Muslims and other Religions take over the World. Religion is about expanding your philopshy and point of view. Gold, Religion and Politics all go hand in hand. The whole system is corrupt from the early days onward, oh those early guys may have meant well but it all went down hill. How many here Tithe 10% of their income? I doubt any of you do, so it would hypocritical to say much of anything. From what I hear when Bill Gates dies he's giving his fortune away to charity, tell me 1 Euro Billionaire doing that?

Those Lendlease Tanks could've easily been modified by the Reds into something useful. That lighter armor could be easily used for a variety of uses. Just let it sit there as a garrison Pillbox with MGs and a cannon. Melt it down or break it a part for spare parts. I'm sure most of it ended up converted into scrap metal for conversion into Soviet Designs... Considering the Russians fought a majority of the War without the Ukraine, it would make sense that we sent them Food! They'd of been starving as that was their version of our Great Plains Bread Basket Lendlease was dangerous, The Germans aimed at anything heading into Arch Angel operating out of Norway... I did hear of some major losses on our shipments to USSR and that Churchill was afraid to send any more due to the fact. The Russians suprisingly enough had some awesome tanks, and assualt Rifles. Their Fighters and tankbusters were fair. Altogether their equipment was pretty good from what you hear. Though didn't seem to advance in great strides. More like quantity over quality longterm

Qyusson, The point is entirely different. You haven't been reading all the anti American sentiment in these Postings. It is a reaction to the Governments, not all European Goverments. Italy and UK for instance support USA. Spain did till that little bomb went off. I hate to say it but your small nation relatively doesn't support mine from what I can tell and it has to do more with what? France didn't so neither does Belgium. Germany didn't either, but you don't hear them bicker too much cause they've got too much American Stock to want to upset their apple cart Europe doesn't mind we do the dirty work, they'll even critisize us for it. Especially when they're partly responsible for these men over in the MidEast having Uber Weapons. I'll bet a majority of the equipment the USA destroyed was Russian and European.. Turn a blind eye to the reality of War. A blind eye to what goes on in the World. Oh, War is wrong. This is not Vietnam, these men over there are baby killers! Kiddy Rapists! Terrorists who'll murder you while you sleep! We attack them with tanks and airplanes and we're the bad guy? So we've contributed to their evil also, I don't pretend we haven't, at least we're doing something about it now. Nothing Republican about that point of view! Fix the Problem! Bill Clinton was a great president, but he failed in dealing with foreign affairs. Bush is a so so foreign affairs president. We don't have a brilliant President I'm sad to say, but for now we work with what we have and at least he's not twiddling his thumbs while the Evil in the World goes UnChecked like Europe did in Yugoslavia for near a decade!

Kurt, Nazism is dead.. We know there are few True Nazis left, if there are any number of them a majority live in the Vatican and Eastern Europe now adays. I've heard of a few in France and Quebec in Numbers...that's about it... Belgium had some I'm sure, not as many as the US. Nazi is often a term to describe these type of People: http://www.velocity.net/~acekc/nazis_and_retards.htm

Many of the Dutch were dedicated Waffen Troops. I know of one Belgian in particular half German who served hardcore for the Wermacht. Though they felt the wraith of Nazi occupation<how many young girls do you think they didn't rape in that country? hmmm?> Foolish foolish people to think Iraq is somehow not a nation that needed fixing. I'll bet 50% of Non Sunni woman were raped in Iraq...I'll bet there are so many actrocities you don't hear about, they could go on for a mile if you created a list on paper! Along with so many others, you know at least my Country fights for Freedom. When was the last time Belgium was involved in a war of freeing anyone but themselves? As far as the USA is concerned the worst I've seen them do in recent years or past years is Destroying the Native Indians and to add to that maybe selling too many arms to 3rd World and unstable Nations during the Cold War.. Greed! Europe is jealous they're Yesterdays Power. America is todays power. That's the simple fact of this, snobby Foreigners talking trash on a topic they never researched. I know Germans and French, and other such folk personally. I've lived in Germany and England. They're grateful they're not German Puppets, they don't particularly love Americans but they know that they need them. Even Russia realizes this to a degree because they know sacrifice.. Something I think few of you realize or understand. When I get drafted, God Forbid it happens, and I go over there to fight for you and WW3 breaks up, and I'm a General in Command of an American Army 40 years from now, I'm going to skip protecting the Guy who pointed his finger at what he can't possibly comprehend. See him pick up a rifle and defend his Freedom then, when the enemy is at his gates and me and mine isn't there fighting his wars for him!

Wachtmeister, Precisely! This is a War! What the Europeans often do not realize! They don't see that Iraq has anything to do with the bigger picture nor Afghanistan. One nation was the home base of many of these terrorists. The other was misatken for having things like WMD, that is irrelevent in my theory. Many wouldn't have freed Iraq due to the unpopular opinion it would raise throughout the World. Nor indicating that two more nations just added themselves to the Nuclear World, Iran & North Korea<two extrememly unstable Nations that've been known for acting wildly in the past and are very capable of killing millions unprovoked> I feel that Iraq was saved by a Terrorist upon his own people. I must say I feel that both Iran and North Korea should be forced to disarm! Any other nation researching these weapons should be pressured by the "World." Europe Sleeps, hits the Snooze button. The USA becomes less inclined to challenge these nations mobilization due to World Opinion. We are not perfect, we're just 1 Nation, where it the Help, no other nation is perfect. Swizterland even, the Great Neutral State, was a Nazi Gold Storehouse and Supplied Resources to Hitler. Using a precognitive 6th sense! the Future: 2005: USA with their weak coalition leaves Iraq for good with their new President who is afraid of a popularity contest with the World. Terrorism runs rampant, a New Age of Terror that WORKs arises... It is now more Sinister though, as the Powerful Cells have gone underground... working towards getting Nuclear/Chemical/Biological technology to use against their enemies. Iran Develops a massive Nuclear Arsenal in 2010 a radical Sha comes into Power. Decides that Isreal must be pacified. 2012: Iran and Pakistan Ally against a Mutual Threat. India and Isreal Ally as the USA pulls away from foreign politics 2014: After 20,000 Isreali Students die in a Nuclear attack by Radical Terrorists supplied by Unknown Sources, all talks of a Free Palestinian State and a Workable solution to the Religious and Ethnic differences between Palestine and Isreal Fall Down! 2015: India loses 100,000 people to a new Germ Warfare, a violent strain of SARs developed in an Iranian Chem Lab is indentified as the culprit. War is eminant... 2020: USA univolved, UN weak divided, Russia the only Border Nation attempting Recounciling MidEast. 2021: War!!! thousands of Nukes lob from 1 state to the other, Range finds their way to Isreal, They react, over 500 Million Indians Dead. Over 250 Million Muslims Dead. Other nations in the Region join in, Armageddeon for the World. 2025: It's all over, world temperatures change, the average Summer lasts only a Month now, Crop shortages. Millions die through theout World. Extreme temperatures kill tens of thousands in any Polar Region. People sneak to the Equator to escape the Cold. Seers, Religious Men, Philosphers predict an Age of Hell upon Mother Earth Here I hear some opinions, people think the above impossible? I wonder, where they're sleeping in their comfort zone tonight. If they realize what effects one man, will eventually come to his back door. What is right and wrong and how educated is he on the facts I live in the Nation where people I know were bloodied by Terrorist Strikes, rightout side of the World Trade Centers. It's here, The Future is Calling you, You're in 1929, Rise of the Brown Shirts, Nazi Party is comming for YOU. What do you do? You're doing what the average German citizen was doing, "Ahhh, they'll never make, just another political group. They'll come and go... Their strong arming techinque will not win over our Mighty society and ultimately nearly destroy a part of civilization!"

http://www.iranian.be/services/history-en.htm a link 1865 Leopold II (rules until 1909) creates the Belgian colonial empire. You know that your nation took gains from Germany after WW1, and is partly to blame for WW2? You gained Colonies! Iraq? Bahhh, we're getting oil from there humbug! I pay twice what I use to pay for Oil, I'm getting jack diddly. In my opinion we should take control of those fields to pay for the huge War Debt incurred During the 1st Gulf War that Many Euros and MiddleEastern Nations said they'd pay for! You defend a Madman and dictator, Saddam Hussein in your anti-American statements.. You'd prefer he stayed in there and killed another 1 million or 2 Million<where is the proof if it was 3 Million> Iraqis? We killed what 20 thousand??? That was done during liberation from that Madman. You don't see the parrallels between him and Leo? You're not examining the facts you're just anti-American like most French Culture Nations are

Roosevelt, The Belgian Empire was too late to get into the Colonial Race but they tried, do you think they held that title for good looks and do you think they were different than other European Nation that have left behind Weak Countries without a Goverment stable enough to Govern themselves? Undeveloped poor little unstable nations like Iraq that once was owned My By Majors, or twice or more times and left to their own devices. For the first time in awhile they have a nation that is actually sticking out the long haul for them and you critisize them? People just tune in too closely to CNN and BBC and make decisions based off of Scandals and New Reports.. Either that or another educated persons opinion of the Middle East

Dad's Uncle fought in Belgium as a BEF and ended up in Dunqurque<sp> another generation back at Verdun! Sure about dozens of my ancestors sit in Belgian, French Cemetaries, dying in those trenches for you! Not including the American ones I don't know of I'm Half European 1st Generation American! I see the flaws in spitting on the USA! Where is the mutual friendship in spitting on the Oil Master of the Middleast who were angry they had to downgrade to just 1 Maid after the Gulf War in Kuwait? All those Kuwaitis were in Egypt partying while my Dad was catching Gulf War Syndrome in there protecting your freedom. Don't care how he got it, or if oil interest was in mind. Belgium fought Dutch, why the Dutch fight they didn't want to lose their area of interest, Lowlands! Essential Populance and Factories that was a long time ago! Still hatred there, bad blood. Someone from there should understand conflict and the complexities of wrong and right in war

Oh one last thing. I see a lot of friends, countrymen off to Korea, Iraq and Afganistan, I live off the most Powerful American base in the World for Airborne Proffessionals. The guys that fight in Band of Brothers for instance! Market Garden, D-Day! They go over to protect you and Democracy every day, and they could get Nuked, Gased or shot. Tens of thousands, Hundreds of Thousands and ultimately Millions. My Dad included, his Dad, on and on and on. I am going to say from no on, protect those Koreans they are thankful for you. Protect those Iraqi school children they're thankful for you. Protect those poor Afghan Woman, they get to wear makeup, they're thankful! and read books! But those Euros, a Majority of them, they hate you! Don't lift a finger for them, unless they swear support<and they'll do it when they're out in the KillZone in real Combat> cause they're only interested in themselves The World is a WarZone and we're not perfect but some of us here are fighting for you. China would take Tawian without us. North Korea would take South Korea without us! We protect and serve the World as a policeman that I hate to say it has a better track record than the UN who really should bare the grunt. I've had to pay thousands out of my wallet for your freedom, cause my taxes got raised cause you Euros are selfish! Get your Equipment out there and do it EurOwn Style but kick some Evil Dictator Butt! Hell, Tell the USA to get the heck out and clean up your own Colonial border crap... Iraq would take Kuwait and Saudi without us. Bin Laden would turn the MiddleEast into a Extremist SuperPower with ten thousand Nukes without us and you Europe would be in much closer range than the USA. Anyone ever read the famous European Nostradomus? Well, odd isn't it around this time MidEast Rises, Madmen with Turbin comes up! Talk about Prophecy I think some in the World have become too sedated by their Little Worlds. Europe is going to be 'yesterday' China is going to be Tomorrow. They work harder! and for Pennies The USA will not be their tomorrow for you and then you will have to fight and die for your Freedom, Like William Wallace. Maybe some of you should admire the Scotts, they got Cohonas! [ September 02, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

People can be as hypocritical as they like... The USA is the Diet Coke of Evil SuperPowers over the centuries. Let me refer to some others: My ancestors in the British Empire, Hmmm, talk about Evil? We dominated you Heathens, developed the Industrial Revolution, brought English to the World, kicked the biggest Land Power into submission on Land<France with the Greatest General in recent History> We also left in our wake, hordes of undeveloped Nations with no real Goverment and ended up a rather poor and itty bitty splotch on the map. The reason why all these Minor Wars erupt over the Earth is cause of that! Their original Masters didn't develop their economies so blame the USA! ROFL I concur with the fact that Brits were selfish bastards! Step forward, you can add France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany and Russia to that! Italy just got formed to late. All the rest of the Europeans are Minors themselves that have been dominated in some way by a Major Mentioned above! I wonder how many other Minor Europeans, say Sweden-Denmark-Switzerland-etc.. wouldn't have turned out to be Slave trading, Colonial Rapists like say Spain or Portugal if they had the Explorers and early technology and know how? In fact Scandanavia was doing that in Ireland when they moved in during the Viking Invasions! Slavetrading, raping the land and the women. SO it's evolution of the World? Western Europe is virtually married to the United States, they owe us their freedom! Russia would've rolled thousand of tanks across your borders and you've been Re-Educated in Siberia if you didn't accept Stalin and Communism as your Faith! So thank us As far as Nazis, bahhhh.. The world is full of Idiots and DemiGods. Some worship Porn Stars as this Icon<at least the Porn Star usually isn't an evil World Conqouring Mastermind> America is the Land of the free, we killed the Brits twice, we killed the Spanish, Germans, and whole MidEast. We could conquor the World without Nukes cause the rest of the people in the World don't have the Guts to die for a cause! Maybe with the exception of the Russians and some fanatical Muslims<where is the UN and where is the Greedy Europeans who buy MidEast Oil when we need them?> Some are helping, but a majority are eating McDonald's and Frozen Dinners, partying in NightClubs and saying we're tired of Wars you do the fighting now USA. Why is Europe so wealthy? I wonder what percentage of the Gold in Europe comes from a Mexican or Peruvian Mine from the Colonial Era? The gold now is Black not Yellow is all that is different... and Europe isn't getting the amount we are but they were before, sounds like jealousy to me I can't wait till Iran goes Nuclear and Drops a big fat one on Istanbul for Turkey aiding US interests overseas<1 Mad Shi'ite is all will take behind that button, with long arms to reach both keys> Then you'll Jump up and say, NOW WE'LL FIGHT! Sort of like WW2 ;)At least the Czechs had guts, they probably would've done more damage than the whole French and British Army outside of their defensive Line!

Not versed as much on History as some of the others in here however!!! Evil is true, Germans alienated Russians, Slavs, Jews, Poles, Gypsies, etc.. They made enemies out of potential Allies that much is true. I read that in a Anne Frank Museum and was reminded her a few months back, many of the conquored people's of Russia thought they the Germans were liberators! Too bad, Hitler was halfbutt Devil<he doesn't deserve the title of Devil as he was quite as adept as I'd expect that sort of creature to be>

John points it right! Indecision, a lack of a real final Goal in that First '41 offensive! Germans achieved a massive lead, and captured a lot of Russian Infantry and Tanks and other goodies. They did push the Russians to the very Grounds of their CAPITOL! That's an achievement and they didn't again consolidate their gains and really do the final and probably victorious move, take the Cake. In SSI's Eastern Front, I would always ensure Leningrad and Moscow fell first Winter that usually spelt the end, even if the enemy retook the Capitol.. The next Summer offensive I was in a position to retake Moscow and then push for Stalingrad, and boom... Why they were so unprepared, it's almost like Napoleon and his great offensive on Russia. Most say in the end, the Weather killed the French and they were never really beaten, they ended up going all the way back out near Poland. Most of his 300 thousand? Army died off. Not sure of the exact size of that invasion force you'd have to research it, but the Death March back from the Heart of Russia was Hell!!! Those French troops went through probably worse than the Germans as their suffering was marching back in Winter all the way on foot! Sort of Symbolic I guess about Evil Regimes, a Godsend that Weather turns out a certian way, politics fall this way or that way, or in the end bad decisions make a campaign a failure? Actually the T Series Tank is great for Russian frontier but I honestly think that the French Armor was great! Depending on what series, think of if they had updates. Early German armor seemed to lack heavy armament, they aimed more towards mobility and speed. Early Germany Armor for some reason wasn't slopped enough! While most comparitive French Armor was. Even the T series was sorta a bit slopped. The Germans evolved they weren't born with a Great Tank. Think they borrowed from a lot of places, or just their own ingenunity, the early French possessed the best medium tank in the World in 1940

Definitely Germans had the edge in the early days, who else was really spending bucks on Military in 1933-1939? Sort of like a cold war that noone else realized was going on Interesting info John on the scavenging side of the Germans to get together on what they needed to fight a war. Being a nation with such huge ambitions I would look to make certian I had a surplus or a good supply of these things before I went out for World Conquest! Foolish German planning. They had their obvious flaws aside from God and the rest of it.. I don't really think God directly interferes in the hearts of man, rather he inspires them to do their own thing which if is Divine, is inspired by him? Confederacy, was a fluke. The War was a difference of culture and one side wasn't going to give up their way of life nor accept the ideals of the other. Some latent hatred between the North and South was there awhile. Slavery was one of many issues to throw on the pile to create a fire that once sparked cost more American lives than any other war in history. Oddly enough in America at the time, Further North you went the more Abolishinist it was, further South Pro-Slavery and in the middle, Neutral. Heh, very demographic... Slavery still exists to this day, there are millions of women and children in everything from making you soccer balls at 6.99 a pop from China and India or when you go down to a local brothel, the girls there may have been sold or basically had two options, poor or whore... So where do you draw the line? Even after the Civil War, the Freedoms the African Americans wanted never came! All this American bashing. And French bashing too. We all point our fingers at nations that waste. Heck, the nations that aren't wasting, don't because they can't afford to. If they could they would also! People are people! When the British Empire was at her peak she was not unlike us. Napoleon wasted a lot young French peoples lives. Germany wasted heck their whole Nation, so don't talk of waste and what not as a judgement call on nations. The best thing is to work towards a better tomorrow, be practical and make practical changes bit by bit. Or let the will erode away "Change" is the key, and that's just a hard thing for some to cope with who're use to things a certian way their whole life.

the concept here is simple 3 Mainline German Units hit Warsaw turn 2 and usually with some luck manage to take it then. If not it is usually hopeful it'll be over by turn 3 latest! It's ideal to leave a fighter behind and risk an LC Lite then to have Poland continue to pester and sapp you for up to 5 turns!

Never knew the Nazis had such an Oil Shortage. I'm sure they must've collected a Surplus to run those panzers like mad throughout the war! They wouldn't have plowed through Poland-France-Russia without lots of Oil. The Iraqi Oil Scenario seems a little bit touchy, that's going into Russian interests isn't it? Why the RR jumps in SC when you DOW Iraq for Russia. Iran was a Puppet of USSR? I thought it was cause of the Tehran conference anyways, A mobilized force runs a lot on oil! Without that you cannot fly, you cannot transport on trucks, drive your tanks like mad. Plus you miss out on giving you troops lots of practice time. I know later in the war, Germany had shortages that hurt the Fighter Squadrons most of all. They basically hopped into the plane with little or no experience and that was that. Though the Allies had their on shortcommings that seemed a lot worse. Russian preparation was a joke, if not for having had a huge Army they would've died. Germans smooshed their frontline... Germans had great Leadership, accept the higher echelon. The Generals were really good, the organization of their armies, the concepts...revolutionary... When most of the German Generals were uncertian of Hitler getting as far as he did with France out, I suppose it worked against Germany as a Nation. A smaller peace could've been arranged had France and England beaten Germany alone.. or stalemated them at least..the victories there made Germany strong enough to turn to Russia and other nations to create a much larger scale conflict. SC is accurate in a way, Churchill kept running to Parliment warning them. The Brits and French could've been a bit better prepared. They basically ignored him People have posted Wartime production figures for each nation, staggering that Russia and USA even back then were the Masters.. Although the later quality of the Armor Germany was producing was King...The Fighters weren't...trade off by 1943 if you look around, I'm certian you'll find text that says that Stalin felt he could beat Germany alone even without the Second Front he demanded from his Allies! Think on that frightening prospect, it's very likely. One thing I will say Axis won a lot of initial victories! Those early victories would've gone much further, look out! You can't out produce a nation if you don't have your factories to produce anything anymore can you?

For AI Aggression, you're talking about adding a bunch of strategies into it's existing AI Membrane You'll always find a flaw in AI strategy and how to exploit it. Making the AI vicious is good! All the things suggested are going to make the AI harder to beat but still not a human challenge. Just a bit of time to get around it. I think HC programmed the original AI for an education to PBEM and IP rather than a stand alone. I think SC2 AI will be similar. Even handicapped to death, I think most players will beat the AI. Unless it's sneaky enough to get to your Capitols and not in a predictable fashion.

howa bout, in Russia certian amount of unsupplyed units escape from POW camps and roundups to refill the Ranks in Corps in the rear of the Russian Guard

1 real good fact is, Russia, UK, USA all aligned were much stronger. What else do you need to include? If you had the most awful leadership you could think of the above wouldn't count as much or could even fail the Allies. The Germans and Italians-Japanese were no match. Had Germany not DOWed USA and dropped the Massive U-Boat Wars and called Japan a wild reckless fool, then moved on and held onto his resources till he was better equiped for Russia<if a Russian War was eminant> some say it was. Others say no... There is a possability of consolidating LC/France the Balkans, parts of Scandanavia and even North Africa into a Fine Empire, but he was greedy and hence greed was his undoing

The variety of historical discussion takes me back to a life you know you may have lived in your dreams or some other existence. To possibilities that are only truly realized to those few that have the heart and imagination to do what the World can only dream of. Their dreams are our reality and history.. Great men such as Emperor Trajan, Alexander the Great, Emperor Napoleon, Cortez, Svend the Ist, and where do we stop, great conquorors that achieved unimagined success. Reality in Germany vs USA, I think longterm we're looking at a Much larger and more dangerous foe than USSR ever was. We never technically fought USSR

Well I heard that twice but thanks for the information

Retributar, I watch too many movies and play too many flight simulators. The level of US competence is I think always questioned in War Movies dealing with Pearl and then onward. A level of Fear is there, as if it all could be over for us and the Japanese on US soil within moments! I guess the real threat was always apparent by our focus on Europe not the Pacific We did have some good luck scoring 3vs1 though at Midway don't you think? The quota sounded neat for a US invasion plan, saying that if the Kriegsmarine was at a certian level it could outgun and crush the US Navy. Though who would really sit and want to build up a fleet in the last year or two of SC, few would, but some do finish their games out. I have to think that a lot of people overlook England is where the Battleground would be not the USA. Unless Sea Lion happened, then what would really happen? In SC the game is over if USA/USSR doesn't DOW by then. If they do, and the US commited resources to UK defense, this could possibly mean the end of the USA if the Kriegsmarine uses it's subs and Italian Navy to lock up the Americans, 4-5-6 armies few HQs<what near a Million US Troops?> and couple fighters on UK with 2 Battleship Armadas could be enough to sway Americans to peace. So how would a quota mix with a destruction of US Ships and Servicemen work for some sort of Victory Condition? This is probably the most practical way to figure it out and if the US doesn't enter onto UK soil to save the day then she is a Non-Combatant and shouldn't even be included in a game's Victory Conditions should she? Unless she can liberate the UK within a certian period of time? That or take out the Germans herself

Hey Rambo, "I'm gonna come there and get you!" Well, heh, real life is a pain in the arse, that 8-10 month gap of SC really killed my game, these rooks have better strategies than I do. In the end though we got real life to attend to, "he'll be back!!!"

Panzer, Italy was pathetic in WW2. They managed to conquor Greece with German Aide. Then some say that it wasn't the Italian troops it was their leadership, it wasn't that they were bad troops, it was their equipment and Dictator's unpreparedness for real War. On and on and on and on... Mostly Italians defend Italians and few else, the one thing that is said is they helped us in the end, that's about all I see agreed upon. Italy was formidable on the Seas of the Mediterranean, they put a few sneaky mandriven explosives on a Brit Battleship or two in Port and had the upperhand there and never used it fully. They needed German Aircover the whole time. In this SC is fairly accurate, but in using them as Terror Amphibious Marines all over the Glove the game is not at all accurate. I use Italians is Cannonfodder, early on they have a slight bit of firepower all in their navy and amphibious 100% effective Units.. A 4 star HQ and some Italian Units would be effectively used against an SC Rookie only.. An SC Expert uses Italians to enhance tech, garrison major Cities, and that's about it. Maybe their Navy comes up for a complimentary North Atlantic War. Historical for selfish ambitious Italy? No. Often in SC they develop better tech than Germany, that part at least should be phazed back with initial setups.. they had few technological advantages I know of in WW2 start. Making a balanced Fall Weiss is most important Ultimately the Italians are useless in SC though as they were in History they just have a Large Unit presence in the graphs... Giving them the capability to do more is for gameplay I suppose. If Hubert is going to include their presence in the game. 6 players? I assume Italy is one of them... HOI does this to some degree, gives Nations like Italy boosts, and you can trade Tech.. They have a massive Navy in that game, and it makes for them being playable at least. The fact is you start in 1936 with HOI giving Italy time to do a lot of tricks, with Tech and Preparing for a Strategy and War, interesting...but their simulator/wargame is no more accurate than SC except in Detail or if people play RPG style.. As far as making them able to conquor Vichy, Spain, Turkey, etc.. I have to say the Germans wouldn't have allowed that heheheh

John: Comparing the times of the Romans with the Axis doesn't quite fit, modern times allowed for assimilation in ways that history would never allow. The Roman Empire couldn't protect it's existing borders at the time you speak of, the German Empire in the early part of the 20th century already stretched to Africa or the Pacific. Look at the land occuppied by the Brits and they were often loathed by those that had conquored them or attempted to Rule over them. Fact is they became so powerful from what they owned, administration wasn't a problem until Germany declared 2 Major wars and it drained them too much to hold their former Lands...Modern times have things like Faster ships<steam ships, diesel Monsters> that could carry large amounts of men fast. Aircraft, modern infrastructure...Plus the best way to assimilate a conquored race, just genocide them. If Barbarossa had accomplished 30 Million Russians Death what Aprox. percentage more did he need? Likely in his lifetime there we be no people to hold sway over...I don't think people see it that way and the Nazis were only getting more efficient, not the other way around, there were plenty of those goons that would've lived till 80-90 years old... I don't understand the logistics of getting an A-Bomb to one place from another, nor the design, but you underestimate the Germans. I think honestly people can do this whether, as Making a Major Bomber only requires a Designer, Resources and time. Something the Germans never bothered with on the scale that we had, but if they had, they would have gotten what they wanted. It seems their A-Bomb project was stalled too by various problems and difficulties, but 1950 seems a bit harsh but we were a Scientific Powerhouse in that area. All the best Scientists and the Money to research it. If world trade re-opened, who would be the wealthiest, most resource rich nation, conversion of that would be rather quick into Gold something we'd fall behind on. You again underestimate the Japanese, history makes them out to be ruthless unbeatable fight to the death suicidal civilization. They had better Fighters in quantity to begin with, the Zero it took us some time to just just be competitive in the most important department of Aerial domination of the Pacific. We'd lost a ton until Coral Sea and then Midway, and Midway was an Intel fluke we didn't know where they'd hit if not for a bit of luck John They were prepared for war and we weren't, and having Russia and the UK out by then would ensured Japan parts of the Far East for free and India perhaps all the way to their Allies in Germany as planned. It took us till 1945 to get the Japanese shores and we figured the loss of a Million lives to take their Homeland. The Japanese were actually a bit hesitant to launch Pearl, no reason to say if the rest of the Europeans were beaten they wouldn't have sat back consolidated and served their German Allies well... Despite their lack of technology they seemed to adapt well, with their German Allies sharing more and more with them as a mutual game game possible who knows what they of become, they had Zero opposition in Asia aside from China or Russia. China alone fell like a tone of bricks and without outside intervention the "worthwhile" land of China was all Japanese anyways... I don't see your argument there at all They took out the British, Dutch, French etc.. colonies 1 by 1 and our Pacific Strongholds conqoured an Empire rather quickly, just foolish having the bigger guns and more firepower and never unleashing it in the right places as you said. Hard to believe the USA would invade S.America.. They were a Democracy and it would further erode their reputation to the World, perhaps if they wanted a Dictatorship themselves. Helping South America Defend itself, would be more accurate but you're pointing at a Nation that required until 1944 to get the ball rolling as far as Invasions were concerned. They didn't have much more resources of War early more than their Enemies. South America is harsher terrain than the Pacific in places.. Only their Navy would give them free range there and the Germans by then could be in competition even you admit. as in Many wargames, USA is not the doesn't even have a map presence as it's not required to win any WW2 era games. The few that do have it, it's just UK, USSR and USA... Taking any combination of 2 gives you the Victory, even those who create wargames of the Era all conclude Victory for the Nazis was in Russia and the UK. the USA would even they survived alone, be 'alone' for a long long time. The World would be conquored recently by Nazis and The Raw Material wealth alone would've made them the Premier Power in the World. The Third Reich would've caught up to us, look at SC, simplified, no matter how much it costs having so many resources in the end if your enemy can't beat you militarily you win. You will outtech, out produce and out everything him. Despite the logistics that I may not know, you're wrong to think the Germans wouldn't be a fairly immediate threat Closed topic or not I like the debate and I like to hear your historical info, it's fun As I never thought of this possability. Plus your level head when it comes to such possibilities, now maybe the SC2 Design crew should read through what you wrote as they all seem to agree with me in their design flaws Now would that make us both extremely happy John ROFL As we want a Historical Wargame not a Make Believe One USA could not be invaded before the late 40s, 100% impossible, Agreed and SC is completely gamey in that will SC2 be? World War 3 would've been a German and American Affair likely. [ August 29, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]