Liam

Remeber now, many didn't believe that Germany got as far as it could up till the Fall of France John. Even his own Generals, who were ready to turn against the Fuhrer when everything went wrong. Though few realized how much power he had over the Country. It was sad that Germany was run by a bunch of hoodlums, and though one might like to rationalize that is was a Minority just the S.S. the Rest complimented the S.S. and other organizations well to do as they pleased! Meaning the Masses followed their Fuhrer well enough and till the very end and even further than Japan had gone if you consider the relative amount of Territory left in the end and deaths of civilians and Military alike. Germany was systematically wiping out the Russians as they went. Think of the percentage of Poles and other Ethnic groups that were being stamped out of existence. How long before only the Loyal Ones remained? Converting the Industry well, more like the Russians, just steal the Industry and take it back to the homeland and anything else of value if there were anythings of value. The only thing that mattered were the natural resources. Again, converting these things into Battleships, Airforces, Armies, etc.. would take time, how long I'm not sure. You're right about that 100%, but in this game we'll never have that window of opportunity unless we say what if.. Already the builds in SC are completely and Holy unrealistic, the amount of Fighters and Tanks that Germany can mass produce would've been imaginary. The technology that they can achieve is laughable... Their weapons do things would could never concieve of in history until the 1960s or later... So naturally I am thinking somewhat on a bologne premise. Germany Could have coaxed The South Americans in my opinion though and whether or not the Nuclear Question mattered is interesting. Germans would've gotten there eventually one way or the other. Look the Russians did and were far behind, it was just that the Germans were overextended in War, despite their lack of Scientific Genius of that of the USA. The Numbers of troops required to Cleanse the Russians and Slavs and then force the other Races into some sort Satelite States would be hard pressed for the Wermacht I never realized how many were stationed in Norway, or in the Balkans till you pointed it out... Many many troops, and one wouldn't know about Russia, as they never completed the Conquest there. Germans had to keep home Security but with all the Resources of Europe and Asia and finally able to trade again, as the US Navy would be home defense force only I think they would've come a lot further a lot faster than you think. I would love to read some material on this possiblity though.. How it would be accomplished. Any invasion before a real Navy was established would be suicide. Carriers, Longe Range Fighters and Bombers...Other powerful weapons the US possessed<the UK possessed> but the Germans never did... Well, then including SC2 USA on the map would be useless then wouldn't it? I would be much happier to just have a larger Europe as if there is no invasion possible then the representation on the Map is a waste of resources for the game. It's like V-4 Rockets that have the explosive capability of Cruise<tipped with Uranium> Missiles in SC? Or Jet5 Fighters that're off aircraft Carriers resembling F-15s? NO SC2 I think will have much of the same Ahistorical Weapons so USA invasions will be happening whether we would like it or not How about this though, the Germans have to meet an Industrial and Naval Quota in order for a Final Victory to be completed. That way they assume that they were on their way to the USA??? That would make an added challenge for us Finally I'd like to say you underestimate the Imperial Navy of Japan and it's Airforce, initially it ate us... It was pure Luck IMO at Midway, Pure and simple... if not for that piece of Code and a few Divebombers in the right location the whole thing could've gone the other way...

A port Rule was included as a HouseRule in SC limiting the distance one can operate away from your own friendly port, as you guys mentioned Normandy for instance isn't even there as any sort of real location to launch a seaborne invasion, Brest doesn't quite cut it for me! Torch would've been a bit different, walking over a Few French defenders who were supposed to pose no resistance. Oddly enough Japanese in WW2 were on there way to Midway and other distant Islands in #s, and their Army travelled fairly light but you required special sorts of infantry, Marines Not the regular Majority of an Army. Marines land secure an Airfield or Port so that the Majority of the Men and Equipment of the Army can arrive. That's how it is done. Not just any SC2 Unit should be a amphibious Assualt Weapon. During D-Day only a portion of our Army, what 150 thousand landed on the Beach, but we had many many more men in the Reserve waiting four our Airborne and Marines and other specialists to make a makeshift port, cut off communications, etc... for the Main Body. So I think that Marine and Paraforces should operate way out of the way, BUT, be very very weak vs Heavy resistance, but you'd quickly have to reinforce these valuable units or lose them forever! as in real war. Crete is the only Airborne OP I recall of WW2 with Pure Use of expensive Airborne and it was foolish and costly of the Highest Quality of the Wermacht

John: Open your mind to what could be. SC and SC2 most certianly does in the fact that a player is given an extreme amount of flexability with their Army, Navy and Airforce. I am wrong in one point that the Axis had Huge disadvantages in all areas, but my Post was hypothetical, but improbable? No! Even the Admiral given control of a Victorious Goverment would he of been a little bit more aggressive in his foreign Policy? Likely he would have, despite the falling of the Nazi Regime, if that indeed happened for 40-50 years, there were plenty of Youthful Nazis recruited throughout the 30s to carry on the flame for half a Century or More. Look at N.Korea or China, and none of them would've had the entire resources of the British Empire-French-Russian Bear-and everywhere that wasn't American Soil on their side. Brazil was a Sympathetic Fascist Regime in the 40s no, Italy would've easily convinced them for use of their ports, and airfields<Brazil would've been Given an Enlarged Brazilian Empire always on their Agenda in S.America>. How long would it have taken for the Nazis to develop their A-Bomb Projects if they suspected we were in full bloom. They'd of had access to many more resources, they may have not had an A-Bomb first but I bet they'd of had an ICBM first as we stole their Missile Technology at the end of WW2 for that very purpose. Who is to say that bombs landing on US soil would've came from Bombers? Wishful thinking, as they'd of likely been as accurate as SCUDs, but there were those in the Nazi Heirarchy that would've sent the next best thing to a Nuke, the Dirt that goes along with it, and every bit as deadly in large enough quantity! So would it have been worthwhile for the US to Nuke the German side? Would B-29s of hit Germany in 1945-46-47? Not sure, and how reliant on Trade with foreign Nations was USA in WW2?<imagine not 1 US trading Vessel ever embarking again anywhere, wouldn't be impossible vs a massive Japanese and German Blockade> Imagine that the South American Continent was subjegated by Puppet Regimes, there would be only the US and Canada, alone? During WW2 the Japanese took out all of Asia with little or no losses to themselves, they used fear tactics to Rule<as in Russia you don't need much to win with these tactics, the people just are afraid to be tortured to death let alone uprise.. few had the bravery, save the Yugoslavs and Russians in WW2 to fight on>, they may have been short Manpower but the Germans didn't need it to win. Obviously they beat the Superior Manpower of the Russians, and their Armor and other land weapons would been far more advanced than anything we could offer, what Tigers in Numbers vs Shermans? How many FW-190s flying over a Floridian Beachhead vs how many P-51Ds? Plus you take for granted that German Manpower would've been on the decline. If Russia fell, it wouldn't have been with a fight, it just would've toppled in the first Lightning Smash Knockout in 1941. Not some extended 1943 brainbashing war like happened historically. The Russians just wouldn't have had the cities, industry, organization, or Goverment to continue to fight is what most Conclude if Moscow, Leningrade and Stalingrad all fell like Dominos. At that point German Losses were not high. They were relatively low. With Spain and Turkey possibly joing in there would've been probably as many men dead refreshed into a New Waffen SS, and how attractive would that have been? Be a part of the Largest most Power Army that the World has ever Known, Auxiliaries for the Empire, while the hardened Top of the Line Wermacht moved for a Main Thrust up through Panama<tricky Terrain> bribing Mexico<who'd been occuppied by the USA> and so forth... Biggest obstacle for the Germans is the US Navy, it's airforce couldn't hit any more long range than the Germans once they had some time to create a few modified Fighters<with all the captured Tech from Britian not much they wouldn't be without> US Navy would've been the only thing between total Nazi World Domination, but a Major Nazi Army through the Canal in 1944 would've been stopped by what? We didn't even start Mobilization until after Pearl so we were grossly unprepared for Real War

John: Your comments are accurate in forms. I do say one thing the Germans despite their backwards leadership were superb at design and quick! Look at the V-1 and V-2 Rocket programs. You're right that the USA fully mobilized had a Monster Army but they had their weaknesses too. Technically had Russia and Britian both fallen before the Might of the Reich, it would've isolated Democracy, soon then Japan would've encroached with Germany across Asia-Siberia-Africa-Pacific and eventually their eyes would've set to the industrial bread basket of the USA. They would've likely drawn up plans to either force the US to submit to a treaty or divide her. If they felt they could take her. I think that an invasion force could've hit them earlier than you feel. With Super Weapons being developed in Germany from the Jet-A-Bomb-Super Subs that could've choked USA and with Japanese destroying the Artery of Panama Canal the US would've been on lockdown. I doubt our Goverment would've stayed In One Piece, unlike the Fascist Goverments ours relied more heavily on Public Opinion and wouldn't take as much suffering IMO without a Great Reason.. It's hard to say if Pearl would've ever happened if Hitler's war had gone all his way after France as the Japanese were Allied to the Axis and the USA may have drawn up a treaty to the winning side. The White Majority afterall in America is primarily German, why fight a doomed War? If you saw it comming, in a Navy several times your own, an Airforce that would be unshackable<considering you had both Japanese and German Mixed collaborating> your own. Experienced, a Wermacht that had never been defeated we'd of shuddered and I doubt fought it on our own Soil. Not unless Hitler's administration remained as evil and was revealed fully to the public<if it ever was Joe Stalin's Regime wasn't revealed to us for ages and until it suited the Goverment nor was the Atrocities of the Nazis> Regardless with any invasion force, victory in my opinion would be in the bag if the Air and Navy of the Axis forces destroyed the Americans. How much strategic Bombing could the US endure? The A-Bomb would've came a lot easier to the Germans and they were ahead in Aircraft/Land Technology than us early and would've excelled after Russia

DH Since I'm a latebloomer and relatively new to SC I will love stomping people in SC2! I'll bet that our best player has played 2000 SC games, I have played about 150

Dalmatian: You did well! I applaud you, much better than I did vs Terif as I lost my nerve by late 1941 early 1942 something like that cause I couldn't take Paris by July-August. The Allies have a beautiful Navy, which is virtually worthless after Barbarossa is started unless the Axis Navy is reinforced with Super Subs and the Italian Fleet and that's where the two will meet and you have to do in the Axis Navy for good or you'll be done in. As far as reinforcing the Brits until then don't bother! As far as everything else is concerned Experience is a Monster for Navys too... I don't care about tech Russian offensive is Key. Locking down your frontline cities with Monsterous amounts of corps and Tanks on the cities helps. Let those puppies entrench and fall back. Let your tech kick in which it should overflow by this point until you got Jets and bring em up with Zhukov... I'd give way on frontline cities if you feel weak but the key is and always was not letting Gerries become too experienced and that's why sometimes a French HQ and an offensive French Defense is key also! As far as MPPs you're a vampire early on. UK has to grab bits and pieces and not loose much. Chits where you can afford it and that's about it. Buy an extra Carrier, buy 4-5 Fighters by the time Overlord hits and lay back until you got Air Superiority. Thing is the MPP balance never favors you and you'll need American Fighters to complement your Brit ones. A true beach head against Germany in the West is key and Spain-Scandanavia is worthless to try this. Aim on France or Belgium. Depends on how your Fighter Fights are doing. If you can't beat his Air I doubt you'll win the game unless your Land Armies outweight his, in that case, launch way ahead with your ground forces to crush his air and force it to retreat back some old tips and as far as Axis well, hell with a bid of 200 give it up. Not worth it... 125-175 MAX

John: Likewise for the USA to land upon European Soil without a go between or two would be very very tedious. From all the information I hear now about Overlord that almost was a failure if not for pure luck, good intel, the Germans had Panzers halted up in Calais and the Allied forces took heavy losses on crossing a relatively small Channel not an entire Ocean! Axis popping up in Texas is very unlikely without a Strong more advanced Kriegsmarine with bases and sypathizers in S.America and Carribean? I really honestly feel if USA felt that their Southern Neighbors would betray them they'd of seized the Islands in the Carribean and secured the Panama Canal and reinforced it with large Numbers. Likely also hit South American Coastlines since their military was primitive and the biggest Threat then would be from Hawaii/Midway/Aluets with japan. That way the Germans would have a long long time before they could consider Mainland USA. Confirm your feelings here? I think that even D-Day should be much more difficult and have a weather effect as SC2 now has Weather effects for Russia. Plus many other regions should have that rough seas, hard places to land. This should be researched IMO Couple more things to add: I never realized so few Americans were in the initial Assualt on Normandy, only what 150 thousand ? That is relatively a small number and why? Because amphibious Craft are expensive and I doubt few nations could've put a Million men in Craft on 1 Invasion fleet in WW2. SC really doesn't reflect reality, when Romania or Italy can do this. SC2 should.. A beachhead had to be established and a makeshift port to land the supplies and Full Army. SC2 should replicate this accurately in that one must first find an opening get a makeshift Hex to get the rest of the supplies in... Instead of SC now where Amphibious and Transports are used as a Gamey tactic and not realistic at all! If air stay as powerful let it plows its way through Garrisoned Coastal units As far as everything else is concerned, never realized Hitler had a plan to Go after the USA. I knew about his obsession for the Kriegsmarine and if he was wise 1946 would've been much wiser. I don't see the sense in launching your armies to they overwhelming and noone else was matching his buildup in the late 30s...Aside from my maybe Stalin? Even by then he may have been not far from an A-Bomb but then again maybe history would've been re-written with that ? and there would've never been an actual WW2 like it was<even though a Liebenstrom Bomb may have been is word for that aye?> Ghastly Nazis! [ August 26, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

I found a Rule in SC, when UK surrenders at a certian time game sometimes just surrenders. USSR would've never surrendered and is more than formidable right at the moment UK is conquored. It's also similar to the USA when you take D.C. game is over for them. Something that wouldn't happen historically, we'd just move Capitol to another Major Inland City. Now UK and USSR surrendering would in my opinion be it. Perhaps an economic victory would be fun also. Force people to defend Oil and Mineral Rich Regions which is historical. Hitler went after Southern Russia for it's vast Natural Resources. Canada similarly would never surrender as many other Minors would've never done so if you lose your Capitol alone. A fight to the death policy in a few nations would be interesting. Or more Randomized Surrending by Minors and Majors. Not following the route that SC did every single game for moving Capitols, Units, etc.. That way making new strategies constantly fluctuating? All these neat ideas for a great and improved game each session. Well, hey! SC2 AI is going to be the best part, it'll be the human side. I say focus 95% on that part and make an AI add-on pack later

Good luck Mate! Treat those women good in those towns you get stationed, don't pick any ladies that want you for your Uniform! But doesn't mean you can't have good clean fun. Kick some butt overseas and screw Special Forces and Airborne<1 is a surefire way to die young and the other to get a bad back> Get a technological MOS

ROFL, partly the reason I'm #2 in World League is I guess I have lost to Rambo 13 times and Avatar Once I don't know why Avatar didn't take Number 2 spot from me in doing what he did but I think Rambo made that for beating the Number 1 Guy Only. The reason I'm Number 2 I guess is because I defeated Rambo once, and noone else in the League has done that in a sanctioned Match? DH, was very good, but he was playing in the older Kuniworth League and the reason I was #1 in that was that I beat Avatar 4 times in a row or something like that who'd had beat Rambo and Dragonheart before me so I naturally took #2 then #1 from all them I deserved it none of them could beat good ole Avatar but I figured out Achilles Heel within 4-5 games. Dragonheart was Primo I brought my C game against him and he Used Carrier/Fighter experience to eat me. But Terif is Godly, I played him the other day and He's like Rambo on steriods that makes Zero Mistakes. I felt that he knew I could do nothing to phaze him, I mean NOTHING. I can only beat Rambo when he makes an error.. I think that It's #1 Terif, #2 Rambo and well heh I'd like to say for overall game play #3 Me but it's Condor then maybeeee me... Avatar #3 Allied player but doesn't flow over to Axis... Dragonheart should be in the fold!!! He'd easily take me and Avatar out. Condor isn't as active as the old days but he would be Neck and Neck in 3rd with DH. As far as Everyone else is concerned, Kuniworth-Comrade Trap-Sombra and a few others don't do bad. I've lost to Kuni once I think or twice...

HEHEHE I'm the UnLoved Uncle of 3 Kids. I've done more for them than their own Fathers financially and otherwise, Don't get me Wrong I Bish and Complain John but I do love them and I wouldn't do it for anyone else. Just these 2 adorable Ladies, and 1 Kewl Young Man. <the boy is a HEADACHE!> 4 Years old...

Hey John, I just had to comment. Kids, whoa! ::Spins in a swirling headache:: I think they're Great, and they're our tomorrow! I refuse to have that responsability though, that burden is for those who wish it, I'm not one of them. Dirty Diapers, 3 AM - 4 AM, 12 years old, "Joey beat me up Daddy! Go get him and get his Dady!" 16, "Cindy is preg Man, what am I going to do?" 25, "Lordy, a job, what's that?" Heh!!! ROFL You can also get the Star Quaterback or the History Proffessor or just a cool person who you can fish with! Things turn out all ways. I'm just mortified of all the "Energy" one has to dedicate to a Child. You could literally become a Psychologist with that amount of time, and put in 10 years of practice, buy a home and save 20-30 Troubled Teens if you were halfway proficient in your job and contribute to society in some other fashion

I can agree Avatar, bombing civilians was always a stupid idea, back then anyways. Now adays it's the fashion. Whether it be minor terror bombings killing a couple of school kids or a major Nuclear strike eradicating the World. Ultimately the mentality of lets go out on the battlefield and fight it out like men<chivalry> is dead and dying out. It's just not as effective as killing every able bodied civilian in a nation so they cannot produce any more war materials or fight any longer. Back during WW2, there were few precision weapons, we're talking area bombing. During both the Blitz and the US-UK Raids on Germany in Europe the devastation was on a Major scale. You had to do it though! Why? Had Germany taken Moscow in 1941 then drove through the Heart of Siberia you know it would be all over. Japan and Germany would've met and then decided the future of the Isolated North American continent<the South American one probably would've joined up to help the Axis> The war was different then, the ideology was also. They pulled no punches and we did pull a few. Why do you think Germany wanted to Surrender to us and not USSR? Russians shot and asked questions later. Germans had been truly evil to their people and they were afraid of reprisals but they knew us Americans and Westernerns were more <civilized> I don't think we saw the Japanese as being truly civilized when they were. I think our thoughts on their ideology didn't help things. Showing off the Nuclear Power of the United States on a sparsly populated Island for the Emperor of Japan would've been kewl! The political Agenda was far more important though! Get through to Japan before the Reds do! And they were comming then... Thing is in the end, the Japanese Civilians like those everywhere claim not to know what happened. We all say, HEY! The Average German didn't know what happened to the Jews! Sure right, where the hell did they go to Adriatic Summer camps? Perhaps the retarded Germans didn't know America has her atrocities in WW2 but Nukes were relatively new and though Powerful, we were the Mini-Killer in that war. Point at Japan, Russia and Germany for Mass Murder. Between China and Russia and Germany you can fill the majority of the Dead. Though the Civilians might not have known it before they felt it in the end, no? USA did what they could, not perfect, we needed the Bald Eagle to defeat the Infamous Imperial Navy. Australia were about to be converted to Japanese without us...as well as in New Zealand and India. By then I'll guess Civilian Casualties in the Millions for not just Chinese but the rest of the area as well

Avatar And what of the Rape of Nanking? 250,000 dead Chinese. I think that the Japenese reap what they sowed. They killed Millions in Asia and were far more brutal than the Americans were in that War. At least we usually just bombed you to death, didn't starve, rape and then practice Samurai swording your body to death If the Japanese could've, they would've done worse to us. The technology, bases, and bombers didn't exist in Japan to deliver Death from Above to the USA. They were dreaming up dirty weapons, Balloon bombs, excluding the secret Operations into the Aluets-Midway-Hawaii<which if would've taken our soil could've been hundreds of thousands dead and enslaved!> Even after all these losses many in the Japanese Military wanted to still fight? They were fanatical, they wanted to be #1 in Asia and human cost was unimportant. Meanwhile in the USA I human cost was at least debated? NO? P.S. Turn on the History Channel and watch one of those shows on Japanese Slave Labor! Personally my sympathy for the Japanese is Small on the whole. The A-Bombs were ineffective IMO, we could've done more damage with 10,000 B-29s with Firebombs

Well, I'm not a Bible Man really but the basic philosphy exists in most belief systems and religions. A bad, an overly destructive force, an evil that you cannot explain away with some fancy philosphical MidLevel College crap. Nothing all out of the ordinary, omnipotent, nothing more than the hatred, greed, and petty heart of Man. Failable, selfish, cruel, hateful. His worst Emotions amplified to cause pain and death. You can go on, you can bypass it all and just say "Evil" as a loose term refering to Hell on Earth for Most of Mankind. As we sit here in our comfort and speak of History and Possible Outcomes, there are Millions starving and suffering. Our ears are deaf, what is I usually hear, "Oh, if you feed those people, then tomorrow they'll have 5Xs the kids to feed. Then I hear from another source, "Well, we need to train them to work their fields, become productive, take care of their own." I'm not really helping that part along, hypocritical but the right method along with the first. A happy Medium is what I speak of... On the same coin around the World, Madman arise and so do more Secretive, Clever, Sinister creates<i.e. Adolf Hitler is a shining example, had he died in 1930 he would've been considered one of Germany's greatest Politicians> The World is full of Hitlers and Stalins and other Nameless sorts. Hopefully we shall have Churchills and FDRs and not Chamberlains and the such<even though the meek play their part too> We need Heroes, we need Knights, we need Good/God/Bravery in whatever Religion and language to challenge the forces of Evil<bad men> and vanquish them to the NetherWorlds... If you don't believe in the concept, re-examine your life experiences and of those around you. You've likely not been touched by anything of 'grave importance' so do prefer to be the simpleton.. But in this World of ours, it takes all types I suppose and that my friends is the bottomline<for better or worse>

Rambo, Interesting! You've got a character and opinion that is hardcore and not entirely off what is possible! An AntiChrist if he does come in the future will not be recognized until it's far too late. Say I was a Russian Diplomatic sort, 25, great Promise and Billions.. Made my fortune on trafficing Pretty young Girls to the USA and Western World. Expanded into developing my Nations vast Oil Supplies. Next thing you know I'm King Cobra of Russia, I start buying up the Goverment. I buy the People's Vote, everyone Loveths Me. I am the Man! Next thing is people don't know is my deranged Vision of Granduer. I am bored with my Money, every Woman wants me, Every one in my Nations is afraid to oppose me. No I'm not the type of Guy that sticks out so far that I'm overly noticed, the West just Thinks I'm a ex-dirty businessman moved into the Political sector looking for Power and Advancement like many of them! <remind you of JFK's Dad> Then from there, I start having visions, that I will be Rule the Earth but first I must create a bunch of Nukes underground, a New type of Nuke that is superior to the West. I revamp my Russian Economy, I infest the World with my Oil<as the MiddleEastern Supply is dead> I build secretly underground 10 Xs the Nuke Arsenal of the West, I even buy Anti-Nuke Technology but the West is sleeping chasing around Diaper Heads in the Desert. Remebering the Good Ole days when I was boy and watching Western Movies and the fact my Old Man died rotting in a American Jail, missing the Good Ole Days I decide to lauch a Total Strike against all Nations considered a Threat to the Newly Formed Russian Union. China jumps on board and becomes my Bish, so does Europe. USA is toast as I burn them down to the ground before they ever notice.. Hopefully Some guys in the USA are still looking in that direction. AND the above is True for China or the Middleast<but they don't seem to have the capability that Russia or China has at this time> As far as Western Europe, they're too small and too obscure to do anything but whine IMO My Opinion of a Reality Dictator As far as a WMD comming in the Mail, way before anyone saw the Two Towers comming down they spoke of the infamous Suitcase Bomb, and we all know it's possible. We all know that there are Fanatical Muslims looking to Destroy us. All they need is time, money and luck and some of us will die, that's true but ultimately the reprisals will be Death for Tens of thousands of their people. The hatred in America will spread like a plague, every Mosque, every Muslim will be blacklisted and Lynched. It'll be a scene out of the early years of American History. There will be a No Arab Tolerance Level for US Foreign Policy. We'll give the Ireali extremists the freeway and Backing to Destroy the Palestinian Movement. We'll build up a Internal Security Force the size of our Army<is why we have a threat anyways, noone is spending money on REAL DEFENSE> The USA will stick their tongue out at the rest of the World......and finally if a Bomb does go, hopefully it hits a Euro too, so they realize they're next <as after these fanatics can nolonger hit us, they'll hit what resembles us and that is naturally Europeans or Christians Worldwide>

Even after a Nation surrenders Navys will fight on! See the Brit worries of the French Navy. The German Navy after WW1. Even if England surrenders, some ships and coastal batteries may fight but withstand a real assualt on the Rock? Doubtful. Even in SC original some territories remain Brit and Canada doesn't surrender!!! So why would Gibraltar? Annoying for the Axis but realistic, there would be resistence everywhere. French resisted the Germans if there was a greater effort for them at Dunqurkue, perhaps more would've

John: Up until 1933<Discovery Channel Sources> The Germans had most of the Scientific Breakthroughs in the World. Prussia and the forming of Germany was done in record time IMO. They came out of small states and formed a great empire, and should've just got rid of the arms race and went about things with politics. All the Old Monarchs were related, they were very poor administators, one thing that stands out in all the History books. I read an article<not sure if it was Time> was about German Nationailism, they say it's not dead. They watched how 2 World Wars failed and how France and Britian mantained supremacy via Economics. Some say that's what's happening now. Look at how many Companies are now owned by Germany? It's quite amazing. You wouldn't even know. They claim in the future another rise of their spirit to some sort world dominance. Think a little bit of wishful thinking, but oddly enough you see how other Nations shrunk their borders up, forced their ethnic group into a smaller region... to make sure that would be a difficult thing. I personally think the Germans are through. French have more Armament

the the league is just for bragging rights. I think to be #1 you gotta be #2 and beat the #1 guy and that's basically it. If you beat the #10 guy 20 times you get nowhere I have lost to the #1 guy like 15 times and I'm #2... I personally like the way it works, only other guy in the league to beat me is Rambo. DH come in, you and Rambo are Prime Rib and would make for a good face off for #1 p.s. come to think about it Avatar beat me, and didn't take my spot. This system is a bit odd. What the hey!

Nazi is a loose term in this subject, don't pass it around lightly. I don't see Rambo running for Goverment position, nor voting in that sort of garbage. As far as I'm concerned he's just an opinionated person being attacked for no reason. We have extremists, Nationilistic, hardcore Truck driving, Shotgun carrying Americans here. They're nice people, they'd give you a room to sleep in. They'd feed you and put you to work, nice as pie with hospitality. They wouldn't judge for race, nationality or whatever<unless you were a Arabian guy with a BoxCutter, 15 grenades, and flight instructions>

What I don't get about people arguing here is that first of all, Iraq right or wrong has ended for the better 'so far'. Come back and critisize The Coalition after. Watching the Olympics now, remeber what Saddam's Son did to the Iraqi Olympiads last Olympics that didn't win any metals? Walk on all fours on hot TarMac? Some real cruel acts upon those People. Some hate us due to Religious Fanatiscism, but if you look at the whole, I don't see anymore 12 years olds being Pedafiled by The Old Regime or Executed Wives for Fathers argueing what had happened to them do you? Some of you don't read "Time," Great Magazine very informative and I hate to say it but much more reputable than most of the people here. Spain is a small Contributor and I don't wish to belittle their position nor their Shining Example. They have suffered, and for that I feel bad but they don't matter and even the USA uses that bomb as an excuse IMO. Isreal is a prime Example, anyone watch those shows on 11 year old Suicide Bombers? I paraphaze a boys statement, "Matyrdom is for young and old alike. Why would they shoot me, I'm just a little boy. Salam, you that's enough Dynamite it'll do the job." From little boys. Sorry if I support a nation that openly practices violent oppressive acts, but what would any nation do? We're not India during Ghandi's Reign. The minute the USA stops putting it's neck out for the World, it'll go to crap. So far the Rest of the World hasn't done jack. Can someone name to me the last time the UN did it's job? Someone needs to push them back into the job. My Girlfriend is a Canadian has worked for Amnesty and you know what they save 2 in 30. They often get people killed trying to help. Personally I say take a Rocket Launcher and pacificy the bastards putting 11 year old boys into forced labor!!! That's happening as we speak in a European Nation. What're you doing about it aside from BSing and debating a dead issue? France and Germany ? Heh, both of them are two big problems. One jealous of the other as I recall, the French are partly to blame to why WW2 happened, that stupid Treaty what was it called? Named after them! Germans, they're excuse now is we can't mobilize, the World will remeber. What? We have been protecting their butts for the past 60 years, think it's well past time they did it for themselves. I personally lived in Germany and my Father Served Protecting all of your Euros from USSR for over 30 years so I think it's high time we the USA got some recognition, you think the Communists would've stopped in the Eastern Bloc states without us there? France and England would've stopped them? Bahh, right, they did a good job vs Germany... The World is a better place for the USA being here. I'd like to see what you all would think if we let the Chinese become the UberPower and let them practice their sort of Politics how will you roll with that? They will shoot first, Drive over your College students with tanks and then ask questions later.

Touching stories from JJ. I can definitevly say that WW1 and WW2 has personally effected my personal life. More so than most here under the age of 30. The damage that was done upon my family has taken Generations to repair. My Forefathers never spoke much of their experiences but they were awful. I will be the first Generation hopefully to conquor the Evil. Not really fully American here, So I can speak from the English and American side. Even a strong German Streak in me to understand their side of the story. Few sides are right I like these interesting questions of Morality. War is Morale? 1 of my Great Great Great Grand Fathers would've been a Yankee fighting the South another a Prussian fighting the French. War in history goes back for milleniums. Germans were close in WW1-WW2 to ending the War and conquoring the World. On the gates of Moscow, on the gates of Leningrad and inside Stalingrade. The Only real competition on Land was nearly smashed and a miracle and gift from above is definitely what granted the Allies salvation! For their foolish ill preparation. Just as JJ mentioned about Carthage War leads to more War, Hannibal walked into Italian Pennisula and knocked them all out, then the Romans switched strategies, they stayed behind their walls and let him run out of gas. Not unlike the Russians, fall back, give land cause we can afford 'time'.. War wasn't always won by pure Might, the Germans never understood this, and oddly enough they're now more Economically Wealthy than Britian, France or USSR their former enemies. They finally took a different route I suppose? Trading Empire, is right? Should we punish them, hell, we could punish everyone! The World is full of Spite, Hate, Atrocity! One thing is certian War<is a vampire> Is Immortal<And we are not!>

Clinton came so close to giving Palestinians a state, it's too bad that they didn't cooperate with the Isrealis. They could've fought for more land later IMO. I'm shocked that Bin Laden slipped through our intel so long, I think that since the Cold War Americans haven't expected any real threats, I guess all those old MiddleEastern Terrorist Movies now make since They are fighting a war for Radical Muslim Beliefs. In these belief women have to wear Sheets to cover their heads, some as far as every strand of hair. Taking it further, Females may not goto school. Men may not partake in alcohol<but most of the average men have a liquor cabinet at home> It is okay, to cut off hands for thievery and to stone women for infidelity. It also okay to circumsize woman and sew them up for marriage<talk about extreme> Remeber this is a different culture, sounds a bit like the Euros walked in after the Ottomans were defeated made them Colonies but never really effected or changed the culture dramatically. They were all still very much living in the 1500s or earlier and Black Gold forced introducing them into Modern times. Now keep in mind not every muslim is a radical but the above is true in a large percentage of their World. Christians and Muslims have been fighting for over a Millenia for control of the World. Remeber the Old Kaliphates invading Spain Charlemange saving the day for the Franks? There is some old World Hatred there goes deeper and further back then us. You can't under or comprehend the many facets of politics, religion and culture and then Warfare without being 40 Xs more educated then we are IMO but I do know one thing, the Iraqis are better off for now. So are the Afgans... So despite all the bad, some are reaping much good. Since we neglected Afganistan after it defeated Russia this is our payback for helping to defeat Communism, protecting the little Nowhere Nation. Plus Iraq, for not cleaning it up in the First Gulf War and selling Sodumb a Arsenal fit for a World Mastermind Doctor Evil. Remeber most of his equipment is Chinese, American, French, Brazilian Russian.. Who made these Evil Men Powerful? Every time we need to own 2 cars for 1 Family. Every time someone runs a Shower for 45 minutes instead of 5. The fact we will turn to anyone in the past to fight our enemies instead of noble Men and Nations.. Perhaps there is a lesson in this middleastern thing. I try not to be a hypocrit, but it's hard not to be. Purge This problem now, it's only an ingrown toenail, what the foreigners dont' realize is we're festering Gangreen

Dear Dave, I find your eloquent Research of the Theory of Mother Nature an intrigueing thought indeed. She's a violent beast and she likes to torment but if you believe in just science and no Artistic point of view the world is a bit bland. Lets create a Fantasy for the Men and Woman alike. Hitler was Satan and Joe was his Brother, <Tojo was a Demon NoShow, quickening the pace of his Evil Father's Demise>. Churchill was a Sinner but FDR seemed like a Saint<I guess we'll never know> Two evil men locked in a Power struggle, a God Defining Moment we won the day with Courage and Bravery, and when things got bad we prayed. Whether to a Hindu God or a Muslim one, it wouldn't matter the Higher Power felt it was our time of need and blessed us with Excalibur to strike down the Evil Foe. We drove into the heart of the beast and so far through half a century more there has been Peace. But what few don't know is that the Evil still Lurkes, and it's in the heart of men<not in some Book or in some Country> and that is the concept that we'll never comprehend and why we repeat the past again and -- again..

Sea Lion is a failure, with Jets 3 the Germans quite nearly turned the tide for World Fascism. Unluckily the Axis had lost just a few too many units battling it out in the trenches to do the job, perhaps 2 or 3 armies better placed and the game may have swung the other way. Great Game, very very skilled Oponent !