Oddball_E8

Yeah, I'm not saying that one shot to the engine on a car will always disable it. But I am saying that a fragmentation explosion in the engine deck of a tank has the potential for massive amounts of engine damage. It would be tantamount to firing an SMG into the engine of a car... bound to hit something vital more often than not.

Naah man, there are plenty of hoses and wires and mechanics outside the engine block that will be damaged. The engine is not just one solid piece you know. Tell you what... go to your car, randomly pull out one wire or hose and then go driving for the rest of the day and let me know how that goes. You're thinking that you have to damage this... but you just have to damage any of these ancillary things to make it stop working (after a short while if not immediately). Engines are alot more fragile than you'd think... even tank engines.

Not as large as I think it would be in real life. Which is my point. Well yeah, but even a light fragmentation device will damage the things that protrude from the engine block Remember, there's more to a functioning engine than just the engine block. A .45 won't penetrate the average engine block, but you start shooting one at the hood of a car, that car won't be driving very far.

I never said anything about killing crew. Just that the armour is penetratable and an 82mm HE shell exploding in the engine bay is "bad news". Also, you ignored my comments on the artillery being too accurate entirely, and that was my entire point. I think medium mortar arty in the game is entirely too accurate. Nearly all the shells tend to land in the same "square" (ie. inside a 20x20m area) and that seems a little too neat to me.

Thought: What is the impact velocity of an 82mm mortar shell? Or better yet, if someone has the penetration values for an 82mm mortar shell.

I think the problem might be that arty (esp, medium mortars) in the game is way too accurate. If you put down arty with a spotter or command unit on a foxhole cluster, the shells will rarely land farther away than a few meters from the foxholes. That means if you call in arty on a tank (and the arty is on target, ie. not missing entirely) then most of the shells will be very closely clustered and one is almost bound to hit square right on top of the engine bay. According to achtung panzer (first page I found when searching for panther top armour thickness) the panther had 16mm armour on the rear top hull. It seems pretty reasonable for an 82mm HE shell to punch through 16mm armour (especially with the radiators and such). So I think that the problem here isn't that the tanks are too vulnerable to medium mortars exactly, but that medium mortars are much too accurate when called in as artillery.

I would like this... prepared defenses could be a decent name.

Yup. All the time...

It seems the HE shells have a velocity of that. Odd that the AP shells have a slower velocity overall :/ (of course, the APCR has 965). On the other hand, I just used wikipedia as a quickie source (blasphemy, I know)

Yeah, it sure was brutal But scenarios for testing weapon sounds often are

For the F-34 the muzzle velocity is 655m/s from what I remember. BTW. did you miss my other post and my video?

Just made a quick movie to show what I mean by "significant angle". Just a quick setup in CMRT with a T-34 firing on a panzer IV (G, but for these purposes it doesn't matter) at exactly 1500 meters. You'll see that the angle is rather large after all (not as visible from the PzIV's view, but very visible from the T-34's view). Here: Ps. The kill shot was almost exactly where the OP had his. EDIT: It is interesting to note that at 1500 meters, the ELITE T-34 took more than a minute on average to spot, or rather re-spot, the tank it had already fired upon before. With no terrain around and no other significant targets.

Where was this mentioned? I must have missed it? (and when playing CMRT at those distances, it does seem like it IS a significant angle actually) EDIT: Nevermind, found it: But if you look at the video I've uploade you'll see what appears to be far more than 1.5 degrees angle on that shell...

Admittedly, I'm only skimming through all this since I can't be bothered to do math at 5 am when I just woke up, but it seems to me that people are still not taking into effect that angle of trajectory for the shell. It's not hitting from straight ahead, it is hitting from slightly above due to the 1500m range trajectory. Thus negating alot of that 70-75 degree angle you are using.

First: Shot from 1500m would be at an angle (not that flat a trajectory at those ranges). Second: Shot at that distance from that gun COULD penetrate the PzIV's front armour at that range. Third: Damage after penetration could very well hit and kill radio operator. Schrapnel, riccochets, explosions whatever could happen after impact and penetration.

I had a StuG III knocked out by an 81mm mortar once... 3rd impact of the barrage which was a pre-planned one at the start of the battle (was also my only tank) Hit the top rear of the hull and knocked it out.

Exactly. And it takes even longer if you don't know what you are doing. That said, people get great ideas sometime and they never get to see fruition because they either can't or don't have time to do the work. That's why this thread exists. Put the ideas out there and someone else might like it enough to pick it up. Not doing it because someone requested it (since this isn't a request thread), but because they thought it was a cool idea and got inspired.

It's not always a matter of knowhow either... some people simply don't have the time to make a scenario good enough to release.

I've actually seen motors working after having pretty severe damage done to them. It's possible the shell just didn't do any fatal damage. Sure, the engine might grind to a halt half an hour later in real life, but that's not simulated in-game. Kinda a case of getting shot through the brain but surviving... it's rare, but it does happen.

Heh, glad you saw the purpose Also, that scenario would be cool both as germans or russians. Put the troops on fanatic since they know that prisoners will not be taken and you get a real nasty last stand

Ok, so alot of us are not that great at making scenarios. Sure, we can do something playable and fun in the editor for our own amusement, but most of us are not all that good at making the briefings and tactical maps or even clever AI plans. So how about we put our ideas for good scenarios in this thread and if some scenario designer finds something he likes, they should feel free to use the idea Sounds good? I'll start: I was thinking of a "role reversal" scenario the other day. Usually the germans are the ones with the range and armour advantage (even against IS-2's a german tiger or panther will usually outperform them at range). They also usually have less troops but better training (for the average scenarios anyway). And they are usually on the defense. So how about a scenario where the Russians have to defend using a smaller force of veteran troops and heavy tanks (I'm thinking IS-2 or ISU-122's) against a larger but less trained german force with "inferior" tanks in the form of Pz-IV's and maby Marders? I think it could be a cool situation where the long range duels between the german and russian armour could be interesting and the infantry fighting could be pretty interesting as well. The people who play mainly germans or mainly russians get to taste "the other side" a bit. Anyway, that was just a thought I had last night while editing videos.

Well yeah, but I was just adressing the "it's pretty short range" comment Range has nothing to do with it, that gun just likes to punch big holes through everything

I later did the exact same map with Panthers vs. T-34-85's (because for some reason the random map function doesn't want to work for quickbattles) and the panthers didn't punch through the T-34's with any regularity from even half that distance (got the panthers over the marshes so they were almost point blank)

Oh all right, I'll forgive you Just promise me that you won't settle for just one soundmod. Pick and mix from them all to make your own

Thanx man! And thanx for the flames and 'sploshuns