rune

Your quote: "You think this is unrealistic? Then explain how the Germans entered into the Crimera in 1941 - with green and regular troops, infantry only." Your post about HQ ans green units and flat terrain is gone. At NO time do you state just the initial assault. I called you on it, now you shift directions. YOU were not clear. I posted some of the sources. I guess they are all wrong. Whatever.. Rune

Quit putting words in my mouth. Twice Cpt states he things it is wrong and there should be a mechanism to check for these situations. All I am doing is saying the call for that is too soon, that more proof is needed one way or the other. If you read what I typed, I said if you get the situation to send to matt and copy me so I can present a case. Gee, that doesn't sounds like I am calling this pointless. Since you state "we" have a number of reports...where? You had a case where it may or may not have been a reason. No proof one way or the other. That is twice you read into what I say, or resort to insults. Let us just deal with the facts at hand. Rune [ November 27, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

As soon as I get home I will send you one. Still one open for another pair. No, I don't care about YOUR pair, but two more Cesspoolians need a double blind scenario to beat each other to death with. [Well, we CAN hope] Rune

Not from you, but this quote: "I think Battlefront should rethink self-preservation mechanisms for tanks. Present work well for fighting obvoiusly superior foe." would require a code change. Again, unless a problem is defintiely determined, any code changes should not even be considered. Rune

Ladies and Gerbils of the Cesspool, For some reason, I wandered out to the outer boards, to argue the Crimea and ISU-122s. When sending an email to Berli, I realized I felt like....like....[hangs head in shame] a grog. So, as penance....I am offering up two brand new Rune scenarios for two player play. Obviously to be used double blind. First two cesspoolians, who reply, and I can stand without throwing up, will receive the scenarios. They are medium in size, and quite enjoyable in a Rune sort of way. Rune

Noloff is correct, the number of tanks does not matter. The threats from each tank are figured in. So, while the first Panzer IVJ may not have been considered a high threat, the second panzer IVJ may have had a side shot, and therefore a higher risk. At this point all of us are only guessing. If you get the circumstances again, forward them to Matt, and copy me. The thing is, there could have been a logical reason for what happened. Don't call for code change until we can prove a problem. Rune

More information: http://www.magweb.com/sample/scou/subcouri.htm For LAH: www.feldgrau.com More on the battles in the Crimea: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/campaign_awards/shields/krim_campaign.htm The bottom line was that Panzers served in the Crimea, but not til March of 1942. To say that the Crimea was an all infantry battle is wrong. Yes, I know you now say the opening assault. I have different sources saying different things about LAH. Trying to see if parts were split apart, which IS a possibility. Rune

Not sure if this is a duplicate or not. 1. You stated in your original message, that the Crimea was an all infantry battle and was flat. I think you meant the initial assault, but did NOT state that. 2. From The Battle of Crimea 1941-1942 (Military Chronicles series 2002/1) book, the 22nd Panzer [i typo'ed and put in the 2nd], the 22nd served in the Crimea, but obviously not in the initial assault. On May 1942, they fought near Feodosia, which is in the Crimea. 3. In the above book, a photo is captioned :"5. Pz.Kpfw.IVAusf.F1, which belonged to the 22nd Panzer Division Wehrmach, on the maintenance and repairs base of the Crimean Front. April 1942." 4. The quote about LAH in full is this: "After the successful Campaign in Yugoslavia and Greece, the LAH was refitted and brought up to Divisional status, but only in name, and then attached to the 54th Armee Korps for the invasion of the Soviet Union. The LAH was part of Amy Group South, and as such, did not itself see combat until it was used to assault the Tarter Ditch blocking the way into the Crimea. Next, LAH was transferred to Panzer Group 1 to take part in the massive encirclement of the Kiev Pocket. Still under Panzer Group 1, the LAH then took part in the drive on Rostov" So, instead of insulting, try asking for sources. YOU stated your original quote wrong, which i responded to. Their were must definitely tanks used in the Crimea, mainly Pz38t(e) and some older Panzer IVs. I am sure you will rush out and offer an apology, so I am done with this thread. yes, this is sarcasm] Rune

Lone tank, no platoon. You pick a hulldown for the one Panzer, were you hulldown to the other? That is the point. Cannot tell from screenshots, hence the MOVES are needed to see what is going on. Yes, it could kill, but the point of two Panzer IVJs is that if BOTH were targetting the ISU, then yes, it knows there are two threats. You haven't addressed that...did both tanks target the ISU? If both did target the ISU, then perfectly logical to back away, hull down or not. Maybe the second Panzer had a better chance to do some damage, I just can't tell from screenshots. As for knowing it could take out the ISU-122. Umm...I knew it could. The one thing about this game, it forces you to learn. I bought more Books and talked to more veterans since I started working on it then I care to remember. I even had maps sent to me from Warphead, and others in Russia. I just don't say the modeling is wrong without some solid proof. Trust me, I broke CMBB more times then you can even imagine, and when I made my case, BFC listened and changed things. [Well, I couldn't convince them to add the Spanish Blue Division, much to their regret. ] So, the real Rune here. Rune

You have a single tank attacking two. Why wouldn't it withdraw? Where is it's platoon commander? What was the original order? To go over the hill? Then the angle as it goes downhill shows the deck of the tank, and a top hit from a Panzer IVJ could kill it. This is why screen shots mean nothing, the save game has to be seen. Guess asking these questions makes me a bootlicker...see how it works both ways guys? Rune

Actually what Steve said makes sense to me. The green IS2 is targeted right away, and beats feet towards the rear. The non-targeted IS2 tries to load up a shell and when it sees the turret turning towards it, says, "enough of this" and tries to get out of dodge also. A few extra seconds, and who knows, it may have gotten the shot off. Realistic behavior....try to take it out before it takes me out. However, once I know it sees me, time to get to safety. Remember the IS2 has the capability to fire 1.5 to 2.0 rounds a minute. Another reason it is not a great anti-tank weapon. Earlier version were even slower then that. Rune

Doesn't change my point. You are trying to determine how 2 tanks react as compared to a tank corp. Do this, create a scenario with 2 Panthers, get enough points to get a Russian tank Corp, then have the Russians attack. I will bet the Panthers are dead so fast that they don't cause a retreat. Hmm...behavior would be correct. Rune

1. It doesn't change the fact you said it was designed to kill them, and it WASN'T. They could have gone with the better AP weapon, the 100mm gun, but DIDN'T. 2. Why didn't they just go with the ISU-152? Maybe to do with the advantages of a turret vehicles vs a non-turret vehicle? I see you also ignored that the russians THEMSELVES say it was meant as a breakthrough tank, and NOT a anti-tank weapon. Or are they wrong about their own tanks? 4. Or maybe this had to do with sheer numbers? A tank Corp on the attack covered 1.5 km width, in the same sector, on average was slightly over 2 German tanks. With those odds, or course they would stay in the attack. 5. Glad you changed your mind on this. I have all sorts of AARs that state the green units made stupid mistakes, ran away, or did other idiotic things instead of believing the crap they were told in training. Rune

Another thought came my way. The 100mm high velocity at gun was considered for the IS series then dropped in favor of the 122mm, DUE TO THE HE Ammo. At this point, the Russians were on the offensive and considered the German Infantry and artillery and pillboxes more of a problem then the "Uber tanks". Also add to the fact that until summer of 1944, there was a problem with 122mm AP Ammo. The Panther could only be penetrated at 6--700 meters. The rounds were breaking apart. The problem fixed itself when the German armor quality decrease, and the ammo would cause cracks in the German tanks. Now add in the fact the even the poor Russian 76.2mm ZiS-3 gun was penetrating or cracking the armor of the IS-2 at ranges of 500-600 meters in test firings. The german High Velocity guns were much better then the ZiS-3. The hull armor was not increased till June-July 1944, and even then older designs rolled off the assembly line. As for the turret, it was made to fit the 85mm and was balanced. Plans to add armor to it were all scrapped due to the fact the whole turret became unbalanced. Rune

No Kloss, YOU are wrong. 1. It was designed to kill Tigers and Panthers? Well, the prototype kv-13 was out 9 months before the Tiger was even known about. Once the Tiger was known, it sped up production, but the tank was NOT designed to kill Tiger and Panthers. SO what was it designed to do? 2. From Valera's wonderful RUSSIAN site on their tanks, you can read this: The JS-2 was a heavy breakthrough tank, ie, tank intended for breaking through the enemy lines of defense. In toher words, the main targets of this tank were infantry and artillery. Thus, a tank with a large gun with greath HE capability was needed. History shows that the JS-2 used about 70% of it HE rounds and only 30% of its AP rounds. 3. A comparison to the German tanks can be found here: http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_3.html 4. Russian tactics as told by a VETERAN of the time, was NOT to engage tanks, unless no other choice. Tanks would withdraw and "sucker" them into AT Gun range. Of course, different fronts used different tactics at various times. 5. New crews were uber daring? More fiction. Death Traps by Belton Cooper talks about green crews quite a bit. In no way were they willing to rush out and take risks. Yes, they were told that, but NO, they did not believe it. He mentions several battles where the green crews withdrew without orders, leaving the infantry hanging to dry. Notice, GREEN CREWS. Rune

By using part of LAH Panzer Division to get across the tank ditch? I quote: "The LAH was part of Army Group South, and as such, did not itself see combat until it was used to assault the Tarter Ditch blocking the way into the Crimea." Or maybe by using 2nd Panzer Division in the Crimea itself, which is NOT flat and NOT an all infantry battle? Neither division would be considered Green. Rune [ November 26, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

I posted earlier, will post again.. The fix will be in patch 1.02. Nothing you can do till then. Rune

Double check your units, did you add ANYTHING that was German by accident? Aircraft, spotter or something? Rune

Donkey beat me to it... Rune [ November 26, 2002, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

Vanir, Broke under combat, you'd have to ask any that volunteer their information. Served in combat, quite a few. I'd almost say more with combat experience that not, but would have to sit down and figure it out. Rune

Marlow, Marlow, Marlow , I don't have time to waste starting a battle, to only have Joebob come up with an excuse why he could not send turns. You, on the other hand, are getting quite uppity. Therefore, young one, send me a qb. Set everything to random, will even allow you to pick sides. I expect you to actually finish the game, unlike others here. You have my email. Failure to respond will result in my sending Bauhaus to visit you. Literally.... Rune

It is right, the mud stopped the real assault. A few german tanks made the hill, but then were hit and the attack failed. Hope you enjoyed the scenario... Rune

Joebob , You and your minions from House Shawl do not scare me. Doesn't matter what you call yourelves...once a yewtahian, always a yewtahian. Only thing worse, .... ah heck, there is nothing worse. I would challenge you, but after seeing you lack of moves to others, and the excuses like "My dawg ate my turn", I'd rather play against Mace , as at least he gets a turn out once per week, if he likes it or not. Face it Joebob , if you play CMBB half as well as your flew in IL2, you would still suck totally. Even Harv shot you down. Oh yeah, that was a quote from him. hehehehehe Anyway, any promising gits that I can take to serfdom? I am sure I can find an SSN that could defeat House Shaw . Rune

Joebob , You are the last one to talk. If you look at the fine idiots...errr...graduates of House Shaw , without throwing up mind you, you would see at least I had lawyers. Yes, someone had to do it, and I stood up and let the lowlifes...err....pond scum....errr.....lawyers in. You think there is nothing else going on behind the scenes? Poor Joebob , totally clueless as always. As for your and Marlow's battle. Feck, why do I care? Start a new one, let there be explody things, and burning things, and grinding of teeth [sorry Joebob , for a second I thought you had some]. Marlow , you admit to having almost the same computer as someone from Yewtah? Berli's Home, do you still drive in a horse and buggy? Try to get into this century at least. After all, was it not Harv who said: "I have dirt younger then Joebob "? Go forth and Die-a-lot now.... Rune

Moonfog is correct. You have the CDV version instead of the Battlefront version. Download and install the patch from here or the mirroed sites. Rune