Assistance getting enemy inf in buildings to alert me of their existance

[Attilaforfun]

Let me preface this by stating that I am a CMx2 noob (which will no doubt become immediately obvious) despite owning RT for years. CMBB I know well but I have only recently actually took the time to learn the new mechanics and started playing the new ones. I am impressed and overall the CMx2 games are a great improvement over the old ones (which I still love).

I recently experienced something that told me I have much to learn about these games. I am on scenario 3 of the relief of AGN campaign for RT. The first objective (village) was very close to initial starting position so I figured it wouldn't be heavily occupied. (I based this on the previous 2 scenarios in the campaign where the first half of the map had been engagement with light forces while the scenario climax occurred at the back of the map. 

I have 3 platoons of PzG and 10 Panthers...one of which has no main gun...point tank but I digress...The (extremely vulnerable) infantry stays in the deployment zone mounted up while the tanks move up and approach the village from three directions (OK 3 angles of attack but the same general direction). I have one scout team loaded on a tank and he bails in the woods prior to engaging the AT elements which I suspect are present. A few Soviet AT guns and rifles appear and are destroyed with minor damage and no loss. The tanks move just outside of the village to massacre infantry but none appear. Wait a turn. OK now move a platoon of Inf up to flush out any remnants as nothing was seen by the tanks. I push a squad and HQ SPW in front of houses I want to occupy from which I can create a zone to begin to clear the village. (I am either stupid or it's not possible to split squads inside of their half track which would save me time and lives). Half tracks arrive but I forget to dismount the inf so they just sit there loaded up for another minute. No contact. Now the fun begins. HQ team dismount and enter this building...rifle squad...dismount right here behind cover so I can split you up. Hit end turn. A few seconds pass. The boys hop out of their trucks and....every house opens up on the dismounting inf and pretty much eliminates them. Enemy infantry EVERYWHERE. Lesson learned (like it wasn't already known) 'don't dismount your infantry directly in front of automatic weapons!'

So...aside from:

1) Shelling the village prior to entry (if I know a village/hamlet/farm is seriously occupied I WILL shell it but on the big EF maps there are too many POIs to shell them all just to be sure). 

2) Dismounting my infantry in protective terrain at a safe distance to try to draw opposing inf into low casualty firefights so the tanks can spot and destroy. (the best option but it takes time and these maps are big)

3) Observing with recon that I don't have

 

How does one determine if a POI is occupied by enemy infantry with the minimum amount of casualties while keeping offensive operations moving at a maximum pace?

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Attilaforfun

[Frenchy56]

In this situation, it can help to use recon fire. That means using your Panthers to fire at suspected areas of enemy presence and seeing if anything books it or fires back. Otherwise try to find good cover for your Panzergrenadiers to dismount behind. It could help to make them wait longer (45 seconds or so) so you'll have control over them sooner to split them into teams.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Frenchy56

[Attilaforfun]

But I had no idea the enemy was there! It was an objective so admittedly I should have. How does one draw out enemy infantry quickly and safely? 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Sometimes getting your units into positions with good cover, decent line of sight (arcs help) and just plain waiting can reveal a lot.....Spotting is not instant in CM, it can take a while for your units to notice what's out there. 

If you want to take a more direct approach, heroic two man scout teams can be used to draw fire (I use short dashes from cover to cover, with lots of pauses and the occasional slow move to get out of tight spots).

Finally, recon by fire is a perfectly acceptable tactic.....Suspect there are infantry in the building?  Stick a 75mm HE round through a window!  If there is screaming..... 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Frenchy56]

43 minutes ago, Attilaforfun said:

But I had no idea the enemy was there! It was an objective so admittedly I should have. How does one draw out enemy infantry quickly and safely?

Simple. You arrive at an area where you think some enemy infantry is creeping around. A couple of HE rounds will never be a waste if they're used to clear suspicions. If they fire back, open fire with all available units and if you deem it safe enough, maneuver around them to neutralize them in close quarters.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Frenchy56

[Frenchy56]

Basically, imitate the T-34 at the start of this video.

The T-34 has no idea if there is anything in the village, which is why it's firing its gun even though there's seemingly nothing to see, or nothing happening.

The Germans do not fire or flee yet because they are disciplined enough and well led.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Frenchy56

[Erwin]

15 hours ago, Attilaforfun said:

How does one determine if a POI is occupied by enemy infantry with the minimum amount of casualties while keeping offensive operations moving at a maximum pace?

Rommel faced exactly the same situation when invading the low countries and France.  As others have noted, it's normal to recon by fire to suppress potential enemy even if you can't see em.  Recon units are not much better at spotting enemy than regular inf in my experience of the game.  So, use inf teams if you want to check out a building.  A unit with binoculars will spot better.  But, spotting can take a few minutes of stationary observation.  So, you have to decide if the scenario is long enough for that.

And yes, one never should dismount (or move transports) close to possible enemy units.  Even halftracks are vulnerable and ideally should never be used closer than 500m from an enemy if you want them to area fire or support inf with their MG's.  Most CM maps are not that large and one can move around ok on foot.  It sounds like you have a large map, so your tactics it will depend on how long the LOS ranges are.  If you have short LOS (under 400m) then your tactics will have to be similar to being on a small map.  

[Bulletpoint]

Remember that tanks are really bad at spotting infantry, especially in buildings, unless they open fire. Even infantry has a hard time spotting enemy soldiers in houses. Recon by fire is a good idea, but the enemy inf will not fire back at tanks. So what you need to do is to get your tanks in positions of overwatch and then open fire with one or two teams of infantry. They should draw fire from the houses, leading to the tanks spotting and engaging the enemy.

By the way, you posted this in the opponent finder forum. Probably you'd get more response in the main forum

Edited September 25, 2019 by Bulletpoint

[General Jack Ripper]

Allow me to demonstrate:

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by General Jack Ripper

[MOS:96B2P]

4 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Allow me to demonstrate:  

+1   NICE!!!  

[General Jack Ripper]

Now, I began my attack by area targeting all buildings on the leading edge of the village. Not all of them were occupied, but some of them were, and when those enemies got flushed into the open, that allowed my troops to open fire on them. This basically kicked off the general melee that carried my assault through the town and out the other side. Any positions occupied by the enemy were flattened by direct fire HE, and any enemy ambushes were dealt with overwhelming fire. The initial push into the town resulted in the large part of an enemy platoon KIA at a cost of maybe five guys on my side.

However, if you have no tanks available, this maneuver becomes far more time consuming and costly. The best thing I can say is to fight from whatever cover is available, mass your fire on anything you suspect holding enemy troops, and use whatever angles you can find to engage the enemy from as many different directions simultaneously as possible.

If a building allows you a view onto the rear of an enemy occupied building, take it. If you can circle around a building and arrive in an unexpected location, do it. If you have to split every single squad into teams to occupy every conceivable fighting position, go for it. If you have to sit there and hose down a building with fire for several turns to drive out the enemy, then resolve yourself to use up that ammo knowing you can then use the enemy position against him.

Your best friend while going into a village or town is recon by fire. Just shoot at something, and see if the enemy responds. If they don't, shoot at something else until they do.

Once you provoke a reaction, then you can develop the situation. Until you get that reaction, you should walk on eggshells.

[General Jack Ripper]

12 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

+1   NICE!!!  

*doffs cap*

[danfrodo]

I don't know art, but I know what I like 

[Erwin]

Very useful.  Hope you post that elsewhere on the forums.