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4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Thoughts are with the victims, and their families and friends.

For sure. But also whenever something like this happens, it raises the question of whether historic aircraft should be flying at all. Particularly rare or unusually significant models should perhaps not be risked in this way. On the other hand, their natural element is the sky and it seems almost criminal to deny them that.

Michael

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An strong political platform which leaves all us fans in no doubt as to which side of the issue you are on, Michael.  :)     You running for election someplace?  I'd vote for you...  

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Posted (edited)

It depends on whether the age of the aircraft was a factor in the crash i.e. if some sort of mechanical failure was involved. If it wasn't then the age of the aircraft is unlikely to be relevant. Pilot error, a common cause of crashes, is a factor that can strike the most modern aircraft - Air France 447, for instance, amid countless others.

For  example,  there is a suggestion that the JU52 crash crash may have had something to do with the unusually hot weather in Europe over the weekend, which would affect density altitude. Density altitude is affected by temperature, and in hot weather can make the aircraft fly as if it's at a higher altitude than may be indicated by the altimeter. This can result in pilots unwittingly taking their aircraft outside its performance envelope, sometimes with fatal results.

Anyway, one thing I've learned about air crashes is to ignore almost everything in the news stories, and assume nothing until the accident report comes out. The Manx Air 7100 and AF 447 crashes are great examples of this. The causes eventually identified in the reports were well wide of the speculation indulged in by the press, which is usually written by people who are utterly ignorant of the subject matter and are more interested in eye-catching headlines than in cool factual reporting.

Update: (a) The Swiss investigators appear to be ruling out the hot weather as a possible cause, and (b) it has been reported that this particular JU-52 is the same one use in the filming of "Where Eagle Dare".

Edited by Holdit
New info

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3 hours ago, Holdit said:

this particular JU-52 is the same one use in the filming of "Where Eagle Dare".

Aw man... One of my favorite childhood movies.  Clint Eastwood, Richard Burton and a bunch of other good actors and great music.  NOW it's a tragedy!

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5 hours ago, Holdit said:

Update: (a) The Swiss investigators appear to be ruling out the hot weather as a possible cause

Where did you get that from? My understanding is that currently a stall due to higher temps and high altitude is the best guess. It crashed at 2‘500m, after doing a 180deg turn and apparently was fully loaded with 17 passengers. They were returning from a weekend trip, so probably even had some luggage. But we will most probably never learn the reason of the crash, since those JU52‘s are not equipped with flight recorders.An exemption made by the Swiss authorities, to keep the „JU-Air“ in business.

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Man them 1930's Germans were ahead of their time. Did you see that computer nav system, the tinted windows on the top section of the cockpit. And the inflight entertainment system. Where you can listen to such popular tunes as Panzerlied  and Horst-Wessel-Lied. No wonder they had rockets, jet aircraft and re-engineered UFO's by 1945.

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19 hours ago, IronCat60 said:

Man them 1930's Germans were ahead of their time. Did you see that computer nav system, the tinted windows on the top section of the cockpit. And the inflight entertainment system. Where you can listen to such popular tunes as Panzerlied  and Horst-Wessel-Lied. No wonder they had rockets, jet aircraft and re-engineered UFO's by 1945.

You find that an appropriate comment in the context of a crash with 20 dead?

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No disrespect to you or the deceased was intended. On the surface my attitude towards such matters may seem flippant but it is a defense mechanism.

To satisfy your quest for justice over this remark I will inform you that my life is a absolute nightmare due to combat PTSD. It destroyed my marriage, alienated me from my parents, and siblings and I have no friends whatsoever. I really do not eat or sleep much. My counselor fears that I may do something drastic to myself. If I was to cease to exist no one would notice or mourn for me.

So if this statement does not meet your need for retribution then I do not know what in God's amazing universe will.

"There are only two things that are infinite. The universe and mans stupidity. And I'm not so sure of the universe" Albert Einstein

"I'm surrounded by assholes!" Dark Helmet, Space Balls (oh hell, there I go again, quick someone report me to the mods so they can bend my dog tags and send me to Antarctica)

 

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1 hour ago, IronCat60 said:

.So if this statement does not meet your need for retribution then I do not know what in God's amazing universe will.

No, thx, that‘s good enough for me.

Shows once again, how difficult it is to be funny in writing. That can backfire badly, as I experienced myself often enough.

So, don’t worry: All is good.

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I had an extremely dear friend of mine pass away many years ago totally unexpectedly.  So I am at the funeral which was really really hard being an open casket and she passing way too young.  I walk up to pay my respects and I had this nearly uncontrollable urge to just laugh hysterically.  The cause of death was a blood clot that cause an embolism. The blood clot was caused several days prior when she was at a telecom conference and inadvertently twisted her ankle while flagging a cab. The reason I wanted to laugh so hard was I could hear her in my head saying no freakin way did I die from a twisted ankle, no freakin way.  Who dies from a twisted ankle?  She would have been so pissed off and annoyed.  I could see the expression on her face, the disgust and yes even a hint of laughter that she could go in such a ridiculous manner.  

Humor around death is not an abnormal reaction.  It is a coping mechanism.  In this case I didn't take the comment at all in the context of the OP and the accident but rather the visuals from the JU 52 vid.  *shrug*    So no Ironcat, you don't get a free trip to Antarctica.  If all the rest is true about your PTSD, sorry man.  I seriously doubt that you'd go truly un-mourned.  Most of us do not appreciate the folks around us and how much they really do care.

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2 minutes ago, sburke said:

I seriously doubt that you'd go truly un-mourned.

Let's not make assumptions...

(FYI That's my dry Brit sense of humor.)

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Let's not make assumptions...

(FYI That's my dry Brit sense of humor.)

Remind me never to hang out with you at a funeral. Well both get tossed. 

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OH MY GOD! WHERE DO I BEGIN TO PUT OUT THIS FIRE!

To everyone on this forum I can only hope you will accept my apologies for this absolutely insane series of posts shown above. I also commend you all for the grace with which you have handled such insulting and outrageous comments. 

We are all victims of one of my roommates friends. They were sitting around the dinning room playing games and getting drunk. I was sitting in the living room working on the PC getting the formalities of re-establishing myself on this forum taken care of. I took a break, did some chores then went upstairs to read so as to distance myself from their annoyance and to remain respectful of my roommates rights to have friends over.

So skip ahead to today. I pick up my laptop and notice I left it on. No problem, I was downloading something for Rail Simulator at that time. So I log into this forum to finish reading some posts. I notice the notifications at the top of the page referring to this post. That's when I discovered this disaster.

I take some blame for this happening. As I was having difficulty in remembering my username I used Help Desk to get that straightened out. They issued me a temporary password. I wrote all of the information on a post-it-note. I did not get the chance to change that password yet I did log off.

Well my roommate gets involved with showing someone his latest car project. The old saying about "Idle hands make tools for the Devil" appears to be true. The instigator thought it would be funny if he downloaded a whole bunch of porn onto the laptop. Well it seems he was curious about what sites I frequent. So a quick check of history, the information on a note siting on a end table and there we have a match and gasoline.

Oh he thought this was so much more fun than the porn idea. Use the last post I was reading and make some rude comments and get out. But no like a pyromaniac he had to return and watch the excitement he had created. Hence the second post. And it appears he is more familiar with my life than I give him credit for. However he totally got my old friends saying of "bend my dog tags and send me to Korea" as to the Antarctica. Hell, I would love to go check out that place!

Yes I have a 100% rated disability for PTSD. No, I do not flaunt it as a excuse for my actions. Though it did end my marriage I hold no ill feelings towards the ex-wife as I was still learning to deal with it and believe me. I was no picnic to live with. In fact the ex-wife and I are still friends with a better relationship than when we married. And that includes her new male friend. While it has caused difficulty with my parents and siblings it has in no way alienated them. My mom still thinks its like a cold and it will go away. My sister and brother know better.

Yes, I do spend most of my time in my house but I have friends. One of which is my weekly caretaker. She's a veteran also so we are close friends both on and off the clock.

Yes, there will be those who will certainly miss me when I am gone. My nephews on the ex-wife's side think of me as a father figure. Their dad committed suicide when they were very young. That incident caused me to really notice the pain and suffering it causes your loved ones. Stopped me from ever considering that course of action again. Because of their dad's passing I was like a father to them and had a hand in shaping two boys in to men who are responsible adults, with good civilian careers, and are starting families of their own.

So once again I cannot apologize enough for the mess this created. Second please forgive my rambling post but I thought it was best to explain the true nature of some the statements he made.

Yes, I am handling this situation with him in a adult and even tempered manner. Shouting matches accomplish nothing.

And finally I am going to contact the moderators to see what they want to do with this whole mess.

 

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6 hours ago, IronCat60 said:

And finally I am going to contact the moderators to see what they want to do with this whole mess.

 

If I were you (and I realize I am not), I would just let the whole thing be. Your explanation of events is in my mind wholly adequate. Put the "mess" behind you and continue to be a good citizen of the Board and that will be all that is needed. Sometimes trying to make things more perfect only makes them worse.

Michael

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8 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

 Put the "mess" behind you and continue to be a good citizen of the Board and that will be all that is needed.

Yep, seconded.

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Yep, thirded! You've done all the explaining you need to do, and I suspect your responses have left all members thinking more highly of you and caring more about you than they did before.

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back on topic. 

The company that provides the flights with the Ju52 is only 13km from were i live. Saying that I am happy that they are still in buissness and that 2 days ago they were back an flying.

https://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/Die-Flugzeuge-der-Ju-Air-tragen-Trauerflor-24153550

Its in German, basicaly the incident caused a lot of stir, and for a small contry like Switzerland the wellbeeing of the company made it to the frontpage of most of our newspapers.

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Are they flying a Ju 52 after the crash? How many do they have? Did they discover the cause of the crash? If not it would seem odd to be flying the same type of plan again.

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18 hours ago, Anson Pelmet said:

Are they flying a Ju 52 after the crash? How many do they have? Did they discover the cause of the crash? If not it would seem odd to be flying the same type of plan again.

Yes, they continued with the remaining two last week.

No, the investigation is still ongoing.

Odd? I don’t know. Those planes are flying since about 70 years now. So, it’s probably not a systematic failure.

But on the psychological side: My wife sort of „forbade“ me to take a flight with an old Antonov double-decker, which I was looking for to take last weekend. 🙄

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35 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

No, the investigation is still ongoing.

Odd? I don’t know. Those planes are flying since about 70 years now. So, it’s probably not a systematic failure.

It is highly likely that the inspection authority knows if any changes / repairs / or upgrades were made recently - which would increase the chance that all the planes could be affected. Otherwise just fairly normal inspections would have been enough to clear the other planes to fly. From my totally non expert view point :)

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24 minutes ago, IanL said:

It is highly likely that the inspection authority knows if any changes / repairs / or upgrades were made recently - which would increase the chance that all the planes could be affected. Otherwise just fairly normal inspections would have been enough to clear the other planes to fly. From my totally non expert view point :)

As said earlier, the authorities even waived upgrades a while ago. In order not to overwhelm the guys with new, costly demands. Wait, why does that remind me to some recent events? Can‘t remember. Something like loosening environmental restrictions somewhere. 😎

Anyway, those planes are run by a „club“ of enthusiasts since a few years. I would assume they are about the best maintained equipment around...

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