SlowMotion Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 I've had good results with AT guns when using 2 or more against same target. Also against Panthers. Strange things I've noticed in 4.0 CMBN: - sometimes tanks track targets they cannot see. Like a tank that is moving behind buildings. - sometimes tanks cannot decide between 2 targets. Instead of deciding which one to fire first the tank keeps rotating its main gun between 2 targets and cannot shoot either one. Even when one enemy target keeps shooting at my undecided tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 50 minutes ago, SlowMotion said: - sometimes tanks cannot decide between 2 targets. Instead of deciding which one to fire first the tank keeps rotating its main gun between 2 targets and cannot shoot either one. Even when one enemy target keeps shooting at my undecided tank. Oooo that is still happening? I have not see that in a long time. If you run into that again please save the game and post about it here. Now having said that also make sure the tank actually can target one of the choices. Occasionally a tank's actual LOF is blocked even though the LOS for someone in the crew is not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 3 hours ago, SlowMotion said: Strange things I've noticed in 4.0 CMBN: - sometimes tanks track targets they cannot see. Like a tank that is moving behind buildings. Did the tank at least have a tentative contact for the target it was tracking? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 6 hours ago, IanL said: Oooo that is still happening? I have not see that in a long time. If you run into that again please save the game and post about it here. Now having said that also make sure the tank actually can target one of the choices. Occasionally a tank's actual LOF is blocked even though the LOS for someone in the crew is not. This undecisiveness I saw just a couple of days ago. One turn went while the tank tried to decide what to do. Then during plotting phase I ordered it to shoot at the AT gun and it was succesful. I'll try to save a turn file the next time I see this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said: Did the tank at least have a tentative contact for the target it was tracking? This happened several days ago, so I cannot check this. But the situation was dangerous because at first the tank destroyer was pointing to a direction where I assumed enemy might appear. Then during the turn it started rotating itself to another direction while tracking enemy further away. I think there was at least a high wall between my unit and the moving enemy. So the wall would have prevented shooting at the enemy. Actually I found a file where this tracking is very clear. Another tracking situation in this battle. My Wespe is tracking some enemy armour that is totally behind buildings and hasn't moved in several minutes. I *think* my Wespe hasn't seen those units it is tracking. My unit has Covered Arc command active, but it ignores the command and tracks through buildings instead. Edited December 29, 2017 by SlowMotion added pic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 That's definitely gonna mess with your tactics! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 On December 28, 2017 at 1:40 PM, IICptMillerII said: There is a reason most modern armies abandoned the ATG promptly after WWII ended. I think the main reason was that the increased armor of tanks required a much larger gun to defeat them. And by "larger", I mean the whole gun got very big and very heavy. Compare the stats of late war guns to early war guns and you'll see what I mean. The Germans were probably the best at keeping the size and weight of their ATGs down, but you still can't manhandle an 88 the way you could a 37mm or even a 50mm. Before the war was over, it was already clear that the increased size of ATGs mean that it was imperative that they be mounted on an SP chassis. And if you mean for them to survive in a combat environment, you better put some armor around them. And if you mean for all that weight to stay mobile, you better use tracks instead of wheels. And if you do all that, you end up with—well whaddaya know—a tank! Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) Errrr..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-12_antitank_gun https://sputniknews.com/russia/201510221028910410-Russia-Shooting-Drills/ Edited December 29, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Errrr..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-12_antitank_gun https://sputniknews.com/russia/201510221028910410-Russia-Shooting-Drills/ Quote Modern western tanks' frontal armour protection is in excess of what can be penetrated by a 100 mm gun from anything but point-blank range – even using the most modern APFSDS round. For a tank that can manoeuvre to take advantage of the enemy's weaknesses this is less of a problem – but for a weapon that is primarily defensive, this is a serious problem. Today, the T-12 is applied mostly in the role of ordinary artillery... Wikipedia Michael Edited December 29, 2017 by Michael Emrys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) Fair comment, but keep in mind that it can use TLGMs so it can engage at serious range with no loss of penetration.....It's still quite an effective weapon according to recent reports from Syria. On a slightly contrary, but relevant note, I wouldn't be surprised to see Marder/Jagdpanzer type vehicles mounting monster calibre cannon in the near future given the increasing prevalence of APS.....Sometimes nothing beats good old-fashioned kinetic energy! Edited December 29, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougPhresh Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Also worth mentioning that there is the Sprut, a modern 125mm AT gun that can fire the same ammo as modern Russian tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Fair comment, but keep in mind that it can use TLGMs so it can engage at serious range with no loss of penetration.....It's still quite an effective weapon according to recent reports from Syria. Nevertheless, the general trend in the three or four decades following WW II is as I described it. There were still towed ATGs around on the world stage if for no better reason than that the major powers were willing to put them up for sale and they were often all that client states could afford in large numbers and they were surplus to the needs of said major powers. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 No quarrel on that front.....I read an excellent article on the 'Rapira' recently but I can't find the damned thing, if I do I'll pop a link in here, it had some interesting points about Russian doctrine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: ...it had some interesting points about Russian doctrine. The Russians have always had a soft spot for ATGs going back at least to the battle of Kursk. They're cheap compared to tanks, so if you lose two to get one tank, you're still ahead in the game. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: On a slightly contrary, but relevant note, I wouldn't be surprised to see Marder/Jagdpanzer type vehicles mounting monster calibre cannon in the near future given the increasing prevalence of APS.....Sometimes nothing beats good old-fashioned kinetic energy! Shhh, it's Ok...There's an App for that... http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/military-models-wehrmacht-world-war-ii-micro-armour.html Edited December 30, 2017 by JoMc67 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, SlowMotion said: This happened several days ago, so I cannot check this. But the situation was dangerous because at first the tank destroyer was pointing to a direction where I assumed enemy might appear. Then during the turn it started rotating itself to another direction while tracking enemy further away. I think there was at least a high wall between my unit and the moving enemy. So the wall would have prevented shooting at the enemy. Actually I found a file where this tracking is very clear. Another tracking situation in this battle. My Wespe is tracking some enemy armour that is totally behind buildings and hasn't moved in several minutes. I *think* my Wespe hasn't seen those units it is tracking. My unit has Covered Arc command active, but it ignores the command and tracks through buildings instead. I've seen this a couple times in past, and think it looks Odd (especially for WWII)...I wonder if it's one of those left over programs from CMSF (which uses Modern Weapon Tracking Systems, etc) that was left in (not deleted/over-looked, etc) for the WWII Titles. Edited December 30, 2017 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, JoMc67 said: I've seen this a couple times in past, and think it looks Odd (especially for WWII)...I wonder if it's one of those left over programs from CMSF (which uses Modern Weapon Tracking Systems, etc) that was left in (not deleted/over-looked, etc) for the WWII Titles. Could be. Like other units could send my tank frequent and accurate updates about what is happening on the map. I doubt they'd have radios or other comms equipment to do this. For a player it's also quite frustrating if my tank is somehow tracking a unit to directions where it cannot use its gun. Maybe this case is difficult to notice for the AI, but for human brain it doesn't make sense. When first Cmx2 engine WW2 games were released I thought tanks sometimes resembled modern tanks more than WW2 era. Things have since become more realistic (reacting to enemy is slower, tank can be totally blind in some directions etc). There is one thing about this area that IMO would make things better: if a tank is firing an enemy unit like tank or vehicle, it destroys the target and then changes target to another similar unit nearby (distance to target is maybe within 100m from previous target or something). I think "vertical" hitting probability should very high. There isn't much need to adjust vertical targeting. A shot could miss from left or right, but distance targeting should be pretty much spot on I think. Currently in 4.0 it seems a shot to next target can go clearly over the target even though previous target is very close. Edited December 30, 2017 by SlowMotion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 10 hours ago, JoMc67 said: Shhh, it's Ok...There's an App for that... http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/military-models-wehrmacht-world-war-ii-micro-armour.html Blimey, GHQ.....That's a nostalgia trip for me! Seriously though, large calibre high velocity guns are very likely going to have a bit of a renaissance in the next decade or so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger73 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: <snipped> Seriously though, large calibre high velocity guns are very likely going to have a bit of a renaissance in the next decade or so. That seems counter-intuitive to current trends. Would you mind elaborating your thoughts on this? Thank you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 16 hours ago, JoMc67 said: Shhh, it's Ok...There's an App for that... http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/military-models-wehrmacht-world-war-ii-micro-armour.html 5 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Blimey, GHQ.....That's a nostalgia trip for me! Yep, 1/285 scale Micro Armour brings back memories. I still have some boxed away with the rule book I used. (and I have no idea why this typed out in bold) "sigh"............................ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said: Yep, 1/285 scale Micro Armour brings back memories. I still have some boxed away with the rule book I used. (and I have no idea why this typed out in bold) "sigh"............................ From the Midwest, are you...There use to be (still might) a group called the Midwest Wargamers Association Magazine (MWAN). It was a Monthly/Quarterly Mag that had reviews of all the Games, Conventions, Miniatures, etc. We use to carry that Mag (along with other Historical Miniatures & Board Games, etc) back in my Hobby Shop days in NOVA (Northern Virginia). Which reminds me, I may need to visit one of those Miniatures Gaming Conventions here on the East Coast (ex; Historicon, Cold Wars, etc) this coming year before vacation. Edited December 31, 2017 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 11 hours ago, JoMc67 said: We use to carry that Mag (along with other Historical Miniatures & Board Games, etc) back in my Hobby Shop days in NOVA (Northern Virginia). Which reminds me, I may need to visit one of those Miniatures Gaming Conventions here on the East Coast (ex; Historicon, Cold Wars, etc) this coming year before vacation. When I lived in Roslyn I used to have to drive to Baltimore for a good gaming store. Probably a good thing on slowing the drain on my finances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) On 31/12/2017 at 12:53 AM, Badger73 said: That seems counter-intuitive to current trends. Would you mind elaborating your thoughts on this? Thank you. Not my thoughts fella, NATO's (will link to the .pdf when I find the bloody thing) and Russia's too. Basically the guided missile is nearing its current technological apex, but increasingly sophisticated APS systems are rapidly closing the 'lethality gap'.....A great big chunk of metal travelling at several multiples of the speed of sound is a much trickier prospect to disable than a guided missile; a single 1mm fragment through the liner of a shaped charge will render it ineffective, that same fragment would do exactly SFA to a long rod penetrator! Edited January 2, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Lets recall ATGMs are EXPENSIVE! Ukraine has severely restricted ATGM use by its troops along the front, hoarding them for when/if they genuinely need them. During the battle for Pisky up the road from Donetz airport Rapira guns did yeoman service repelling Russian tank assaults. I believe Russia still employs AT gun as flank protection, leaving tanks and ATGMs free for other duties. It also helps if the gun can serve double duty as an artillery piece. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) And it can still fire (Bastion?) ATGMs if needed. Edited January 2, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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