Buttoned tanks still possess telepathy.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In my experience vehicles in CM cannot get sound contacts unless it is passed on to them from another unit via C2.

[Muzzleflash1990]

I agree that it is possible to spot infantry behind the tank via the cupola - but that should be with their eyes, not their ears.

[BletchleyGeek]

Engaging the AFV from another direction would greatly enhance the chances of success. Having a unit capable of creating that "distraction"  can be problematic as you can't have infantry engage with small arms fire a buttoned vehicle - target command has no effect.

AFV vs anything engagements end up quite quickly with the demise of one of the participants. So timing is important, otherwise the goat dies for nothing. 

Soviet AT rifles and the heavier MG's are good goats, they are very mobile and their loss rarely cripples you.

Without a goat or suppression, chances of success are quite low. Whether they are reasonably low or not, I can't say. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by BletchleyGeek

[Bulletpoint]

12 hours ago, Apocal said:

I'm arguing they shouldn't be getting sound contacts though, since they are buttoned-up

11 hours ago, Muzzleflash1990 said:

I agree that it is possible to spot infantry behind the tank via the cupola - but that should be with their eyes, not their ears.

I think people are a bit confused about the terminology here. Distant contacts are usually not sound contacts. When contacts are gained from sound close by, we can call them sound contacts, but at the end of the day, all contacts are just contacts.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Bulletpoint

[Apocal]

12 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

In my experience vehicles in CM cannot get sound contacts unless it is passed on to them from another unit via C2.

The only Axis units are buttoned-up Panthers and they can only see in their lane.

39 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think people are a bit confused about the terminology here. Distant contacts are usually not sound contacts. When contacts are gained from sound close by, we can call them sound contacts, but at the end of the day, all contacts are just contacts.

Ah OK, I thought all of them were sound-based.

[Michael Emrys]

15 minutes ago, Apocal said:

Ah OK, I thought all of them were sound-based.

They can be a result of lots of things besides sound. A reflection; some movement in grass or other vegetation; the flare of a match; a sudden flight of an animal. All it needs to do is arouse a suspicion that there might be somebody there.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

57 minutes ago, Apocal said:

The only Axis units are buttoned-up Panthers and they can only see in their lane.

Could you upload your test scenario? I cannot replicate your results.

[Apocal]

19 hours ago, Apocal said:

A Tank Spotting Test.bts (run in two player hotseat, not scen author test, or the Panthers will unbutton at  the start for some reason)

2 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Could you upload your test scenario? I cannot replicate your results.

Here.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Apocal

[A Canadian Cat]

20 hours ago, Apocal said:

I have all the bazooka teams set with target armor at 50 meters (circular) range. None of the bazooka teams have fired yet. There are thirteen lanes total, all visually isolated. So far: one hard spot, four sound contacts.

Ah, nice. Something to talk about. How long have they been sitting there? I think it would be good to figure out what the average time to spot the infantry is.

What do we think the expected results might be? Serious question. the TC does have the ability to see all around and this is an infantry in the open scenario. Surely the TC would eventually spot them when doing one of their 360 checks. So, how much time should it take on average before the TC spots them?

Perhaps we could consider how fast they spot compared to the same sized team in front of the tank. Directly in front there are more crew that can see something so the average time to spot should be quite a bit faster.

[Bulletpoint]

I've seen infantry crawling up to a Sherman from the side through woods, yet found that when they arrived, the tank had already turned its turret to face them - meaning that the tank spotted them about 5 seconds before they spotted the tank.

Anecdotal evidence, but still that one seemed off.

[Vanir Ausf B]

9 hours ago, Apocal said:

Here.

Thanks, but that is a saved game in Scenario Editor mode. Regardless, the test is fatally flawed because the tanks are in C2 with each other. Any contacts with bazooka teams out of LOS are almost certainly because of com links rather than sound. To do the test properly each tank must be an HQ with no HQ above it.

Here is a simple test I believe proves that tanks cannot hear infantry, even when unbuttoned.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cubmpieal8tyd1u/A hearing test 001.bts?dl=0

While messing around with this I did discover something I did not know: that vehicles can hear other vehicles, but only when unbuttoned.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Vanir Ausf B

[IICptMillerII]

So, the tank commander hatch has these things that in layman terms are called 'little windows' that allow the tank commander to see out of the tank when he is buttoned. Yes, even behind him. Modern technology truly is a wonder. 

So when Mr. Sneaky Bazooka Joe crawls up behind a buttoned panther tank, doing his best to be Solid Snake, it actually turns out that the tank commander can see him crawling up to his tank with a long metal tube, and decides that shooting the man with the long metal tube is the right action to take. 

I honestly am amazed this conversation has gone as long as it has. 

[BletchleyGeek]

1 hour ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

While messing around with this I did discover something I did not know: that vehicles can hear other vehicles, but only when unbuttoned.

That is interesting. 

20 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

I honestly am amazed this conversation has gone as long as it has. 

It will be as long as it takes to satiate the OP curiosity. A visual demonstration of more robust tactics - like the Richtig or Else vignettes - of close combat for infantry against AFVs - within CMx2 constraints - would be helpful, if purely textual comments and explanations do not suffice.

Edited July 10, 2017 by BletchleyGeek

[JoMac]

1 hour ago, IICptMillerII said:

So, the tank commander hatch has these things that in layman terms are called 'little windows' that allow the tank commander to see out of the tank when he is buttoned. Yes, even behind him. Modern technology truly is a wonder. 

So when Mr. Sneaky Bazooka Joe crawls up behind a buttoned panther tank, doing his best to be Solid Snake, it actually turns out that the tank commander can see him crawling up to his tank with a long metal tube, and decides that shooting the man with the long metal tube is the right action to take. 

I honestly am amazed this conversation has gone as long as it has. 

WOW !...I mean SERIOUSLY, Cpl.Miller...

That Zook Team, in RL, (and in this particular case) probably has about a 90% chance of not getting spotted and firing off a round. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by JoMc67

[IICptMillerII]

10 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

WOW !...I mean SERIOUSLY, Cpl.Miller...

I know, its so obvious you would think it wouldn't have to be pointed out, but alas...

[BletchleyGeek]

16 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

That Zook Team, in RL, (and in this particular case) probably has about a 90% chance of not getting spotted and firing off a round. 

And that statement is based in what exactly?  If you're still looking forward to dinner, gut feelings may not be that reliable

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

So when Mr. Sneaky Bazooka Joe crawls up behind a buttoned panther tank, doing his best to be Solid Snake, it actually turns out that the tank commander can see him crawling up to his tank with a long metal tube, and decides that shooting the man with the long metal tube is the right action to take. 

Provided of course that he is looking in the right direction at the right time and not preoccupied with looking somewhere else, as he is apt to do IRL.

Michael

[Apocal]

7 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Thanks, but that is a saved game in Scenario Editor mode. Regardless, the test is fatally flawed because the tanks are in C2 with each other. Any contacts with bazooka teams out of LOS are almost certainly because of com links rather than sound. To do the test properly each tank must be an HQ with no HQ above it.

I'm concerned with the ease they get sound contacts (or just plain contacts, I don't know how to tell the difference in-game) on infantry approaching from the rear quarter within a minute or less. I didn't realize the non-targetable contact markers weren't all sound contacts before. Although I am seeing sound contacts (for friendly forces) in my own test. I'll try to get another save once I'm off work.

8 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I've seen infantry crawling up to a Sherman from the side through woods, yet found that when they arrived, the tank had already turned its turret to face them - meaning that the tank spotted them about 5 seconds before they spotted the tank.

Anecdotal evidence, but still that one seemed off.

I don't think cover matters at close range unless it is actually blocking LOS.

12 hours ago, IanL said:

Ah, nice. Something to talk about. How long have they been sitting there? I think it would be good to figure out what the average time to spot the infantry is.

What do we think the expected results might be? Serious question. the TC does have the ability to see all around and this is an infantry in the open scenario. Surely the TC would eventually spot them when doing one of their 360 checks. So, how much time should it take on average before the TC spots them?

Perhaps we could consider how fast they spot compared to the same sized team in front of the tank. Directly in front there are more crew that can see something so the average time to spot should be quite a bit faster.

Infantry are in place for less than a minute; first spot happens within ten seconds, with one or two contacts following over the course of thirty seconds out of thirteen lanes total. Tests with movement produce essentially the same outcome -- until the infantry get close and telepathy kicks in -- which is odd considering that infantry are stationary vs. moving and these are buttoned-up tanks.

[user1000]

I found on another site and not sure if true but, that the panther's commander cupola can rotate 360 degrees giving the crew and good view around the tank a design later added to shermans.

Edited July 11, 2017 by user1000

[General Jack Ripper]

The commander's position is first in the video.

[Apocal]

Here is the scenario.

The weird thing is that the Panthers apparently have sound (since they can't see over the berms) contacts on each other at the beginning of the turn, despite being buttoned. Or at least they have on every run through of the test.

A Tank Spotting Test.btt

[BletchleyGeek]

2 hours ago, Apocal said:

Here is the scenario.

The weird thing is that the Panthers apparently have sound (since they can't see over the berms) contacts on each other at the beginning of the turn, despite being buttoned. Or at least they have on every run through of the test.

A Tank Spotting Test.btt

That's them being aware of each other's whereabouts thanks to having radios mounted and the crew using them. What you call "sound" contacts are just an abstract graphical representation of the fact the crew has a general idea of the location of the other tanks, but don't know the vehicle facing, whether it is moving or not, whether is buttoned, where is the turret pointing, etc.

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

2 hours ago, Apocal said:

Here is the scenario.

The weird thing is that the Panthers apparently have sound (since they can't see over the berms) contacts on each other at the beginning of the turn, despite being buttoned. Or at least they have on every run through of the test.

A Tank Spotting Test.btt

It looks like you haven't changed anything. The Panthers are still in C2 with each other. Also, they need to be physically moved further from each other to avoid horizontal C2. At least 33 meters should separate them but I'd do 50 to be safe.

At the beginning of every game each unit knows the position of every other friendly unit.

[Apocal]

8 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

It looks like you haven't changed anything. The Panthers are still in C2 with each other.

I know they are. I don't care because I'm only concerned about their ability to spot infantry. The issue was tanks were straight up spotting infantry under questionable circumstances (in a building to their left-rear) as fast or faster than infantry could spot them.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Apocal

[Vanir Ausf B]

41 minutes ago, Apocal said:

I know they are. I don't care because I'm only concerned about their ability to spot infantry. 

When I stated earlier that tanks cannot hear infantry you referenced this test as a counterpoint. If we are now only concerned with spotting then I'm not sure what the test is supposed to prove. That tanks can spot things not in front of them is well-known. Whether or not they are too good at it is another question I don't have the answer to. Tank spotting has been downgraded before in CM and it wouldn't break my heart to see it nerfed again but I feel there are other issues that are more important at this point, such as speed of reaction.

Cupolas do make a difference. As best I can tell all vehicles have some amount of 360° awareness but tanks without cupolas have much less.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a04f8kfbx0emqjn/A Jagd Spotting Test 001.bts?dl=0

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Vanir Ausf B