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Part 24. Keeping enemy closed, adjusting front line plans, cheking out those trees etc. 

Note: This mission got perfect conditions for a reason of showing some core principals. In real battle you should expect involvement of heavy armor (will talk about it later), aviation (will talk about it later), intell will not always be there from the very start (will talk about it later), and so on. The reason for this series is to introduce players who werent using massive amounts of units with some basics related to managment of huge force at once. Again - in real battle you will not have these conditions but by viewing this topic you might pick up something what you can further adopt to your own battles. Last but not least - fair and unfair scenarios will be shown here within time. This topic is not for days its for years to come so be patient - feel free to share your tactical lifehacks and feel free to ask questions. Critics are welcome as well - but a constructive one (imagine we are all sitting in HQ and thinking how to do things better together). 

 So from the previous posts about battalion level attack on a company you could see the general plan for adjusting and forming 2nd phase frontline. 

But before you do so you should take care of time consuming stuff like - calling for an arty support and for checking out those tree lines on the right and on the left.

TAEzm2f.png

In general you should always be careful while moving through forests and treelines. The reason for that is simple - your enemy can be waiting for you there and if his infantry is already in position it will see your infantry and will open fire first. Who opens fire first usually wins. But when you are in command of a larger forces you can let yourself do things what you would not be able to do while commanding smaller forces. 

So while planing all that movment you should also take care of further arty support. It will take time while commanding Ukrainian side so do it in advance. 

U4PULfz.png'

While that is going on start forming a group what will push through those woods. 

YPukoJY.png

It would be great if you push those positions what you've managed to already put under fire few times. So for example - there were 3 vehicles standing in those woods - forces around them were in good moral and good standing. Now when as you can see smoke is going up - those units are not as tough as they were before. Pushing them with an entire platoon step by step from one side and flanking them with spec ops at certain moment will minimize your risks. 

3gsrhDH.png

It will take time but it is a good thing - sometimes under electronic warfare conditions your arty stike can be a long wait (up to 28 minutes actually). 

so use that time. 

0K84W57.png

End of Part 24. 

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To honour how badly this thread has been derailed, I present a poem:
 
I met a traveller from an antique thread,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of ****posting in the BFC forums. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Oleksander, Ukranian of ukranians;
Look on my tactics, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Thread, boundless and bare
The lone and level foxholes stretch far away.”

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@Oleksandr
In the spirit of poetry I've decided to throw my hat into the ring


Bent double, like old Ukrops under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, Olek cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares Olek turned his back
And towards his distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with Ultra-nationalism; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Two o' Threes that dropped behind.

****post! ****post! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw Olek drowning.

In all my dreams, before his helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the BTR that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Slava Ukrain
 

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I just banned SergeantSpook because it's pretty apparent it's a sock puppet account, which is a violation of the rules.  Not to mention that for only having 2 posts, 1 attacking a member and another trying to provoke a negative reaction isn't a good track record.  I've got better things to do with my time than police childish behavior.

Steve

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I just banned IICptJoeII for 4 abusive posts out of 4 total.  And all in one thread too.  Polite golf clap.

This is a message to the children out there who are distracting me from doing useful things like, well, pretty much anything.  I'm going to keep coming here and I'm going to keep banning people for gross violations of the User Agreement that governs the behavior on this Forum.  Like your Mother should have told you, if you don't have anything nice to say... say nothing at all.  If this thread bothers you so much, then do a very simple thing and DON'T READ IT.  You are not the content police.

Steve

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8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

I just banned IICptJoeII for 4 abusive posts out of 4 total.  And all in one thread too.  Polite golf clap.

This is a message to the children out there who are distracting me from doing useful things like, well, pretty much anything.  I'm going to keep coming here and I'm going to keep banning people for gross violations of the User Agreement that governs the behavior on this Forum.  Like your Mother should have told you, if you don't have anything nice to say... say nothing at all.  If this thread bothers you so much, then do a very simple thing and DON'T READ IT.  You are not the content police.

Steve

Thank you sir. 

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Completely agree. It's just a thread. Ignore it if it hurts your peace of mind so much. 

As was said over on the Mods forum - I don't see anyone criticising this thread who has contributed anything positive to the general knowledge and enjoyment of this game. Not even mods.

Everyone has an opinion. Doesn't mean it's actually worth anything. 

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Sorry, I have to disagree. All I see in this thread is the JasonC fiasco all over again; well meaning constructive criticism (and yes, in that thread quite a bit of nasty stuff was mixed in, but that doesn't diminish from the well-said truths) was openly ignored and he wasn't willing to lay down what he was proselytizing. Not sure what these other boneheads thought they were doing over the last two pages, but people like @BrotherSurplice were on point.  He's had constructive criticism from page 1 and has consistently and has rather arrogantly ignored it all. 

Edited by Rinaldi

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47 minutes ago, Rinaldi said:

Sorry, I have to disagree. All I see in this thread is the JasonC fiasco all over again; well meaning constructive criticism (and yes, in that thread quite a bit of nasty stuff was mixed in, but that doesn't diminish from the well-said truths) was openly ignored and he wasn't willing to lay down what he was proselytizing. Not sure what these other boneheads thought they were doing over the last two pages, but people like @BrotherSurplice were on point.  He's had constructive criticism from page 1 and has consistently and has rather arrogantly ignored it all. 

This was very well said. Everyone seems to think people with constructive criticism should just ignore this thread, and I ask why? Yes certain trolls such as joe and spook take the thread off the rails, but I also feel it’s important for newer people to know that much of the advice given here is just...let’s call it wrong. Combat mission is a difficult game to master, and I’m glad certain people are willing to call out bad advice when it appears. 

Edited by sid_burn

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If you think it wrong then why not offer your own detailed analysis as to what you would do in the above scenario circumstances. It's very easy to criticize and sneer.  Alternative helpful/constructive viewpoints are welcome. 

As most of us agree, CMBS is the hardest CM2 game to master.  At least Olek is making an effort to provide tactical advice.  Something very rare these days. 

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Just now, Erwin said:

If you think it wrong then why not offer your own detailed analysis as to what you would do in the above scenario circumstances. It's very easy to criticize and sneer.  Alternative helpful/constructive viewpoints are welcome. 

As most of us agree, CMBS is the hardest CM2 game to master.  At least Olek is making an effort to provide tactical advice.  Something very rare these days. 

Olek gets offered what to do all the time like go through the forest, not an open field and use arty on the enemy not open ground.  He consistently ignores it.  Trying to offer tactical advice isn't good when it's bad advice.

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Just now, Erwin said:

If you think it wrong then why not offer your own detailed analysis as to what you would do in the above scenario circumstances. It's very easy to criticize and sneer.  Alternative helpful/constructive viewpoints are welcome. 

As most of us agree, CMBS is the hardest CM2 game to master.  At least Olek is making an effort to provide tactical advice.  Something very rare these days. 

He once pm’d me to debate the Strykers merits, he then got mad at me and blocked me because I said the Stryker was a good vehicle. So sadly I can’t engage with olek. But others have offered their own advice in the thread. If you are looking for tips I’d also recommend checking out some aars, @Rinaldidoes decent video ones, and @BrotherSurplicehas started one as well. 

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There are many things that I would not do either. However, it is fascinating to see how others handle a situation and there is always something to learn.  And as said, Olek AFAIK is the only person here attempting detailed analysis.

If others are now doing so, that is very welcome.

Edited by Erwin

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2 minutes ago, Erwin said:

There are many things that I would not do either. However, it is fascinating to see how others handle a situation and there is always something to learn.  And as said, Olek AFAIK is the only person here attempting detailed analysis.

If others are now doing so, that is very welcome.

 It's not the thought that counts.  This is bad advice and there are new players who might take this seriously.  Also Olek isn't attempting or trying.  He consistently ignores good advice and doesn't change his mind.  A good thread would have the person making analysis be open to different ideas and willing to  know that their own ideas are bad.

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I understand where you are coming from Sul.  The issue with CMBS is that until now there has been no advice on how to handle Red forces - and as a very experienced player I also still have had problems handling Russians or Ukrainians.  I don't agree with everything Olek is saying.  But, he deserves respect for making an effort.  I get the sense he's like a movie maker being attacked by nasty movie critics who can't be bothered, or don't have the balls to make a movie themselves to "put their money where their mouths are".

Also, I wonder if successful game tactics conflict with RL tactics.  There is a difference. 

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2 minutes ago, Erwin said:

I understand where you are coming from Sul.  The issue with CMBS is that until now there has been no advice on how to handle Red forces - and as a very experienced player I also still have had problems handling Russians or Ukrainians.  I don't agree with everything Olek is saying.  But, he deserves respect for making an effort.  I get the sense he's like a movie maker being attacked by nasty movie critics who can't be bothered, or don't have the balls to make a movie themselves to "put their money where their mouths are".

Also, I wonder if successful game tactics conflict with RL tactics.  There is a difference. 

Olek won't play any online matches.  He's the one who won't "put their money where their mouths are."  Also have you looked at YouTube for CM content?  People who post here upload videos of their games.

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Sorry to interrupt you guys, but "putting your money where your mouth is" would really be proving those tips in an H2H. Also the "cover made by 203 mm arty" idea seems to be the most interesting and useless advice for CM I have seen so far. My 2 noob cents.

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For the record, it is fine for people to be critical of the advice being made here.  It is also fine to be critical of Olek for not addressing issues brought up by other posters.  It's even fine to point out that Olek hasn't shown how his advice works in real gameplay.  None of that is a problem since that's what discussion forums are for.  Sock puppets and abusive postings, however, are not. 

I've had to ban two people (well, probably the same person) already and it's been probably a year or more since I've banned even one account.  Hopefully we can keep the critical discussion focused on the advice and not cause me to log into the backend and kick people off the Forum.

Steve

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12 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

For the record, it is fine for people to be critical of the advice being made here.  It is also fine to be critical of Olek for not addressing issues brought up by other posters.  It's even fine to point out that Olek hasn't shown how his advice works in real gameplay.  None of that is a problem since that's what discussion forums are for.  Sock puppets and abusive postings, however, are not. 

I've had to ban two people (well, probably the same person) already and it's been probably a year or more since I've banned even one account.  Hopefully we can keep the critical discussion focused on the advice and not cause me to log into the backend and kick people off the Forum.

Steve

Roger that.

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Part 25. locking your enemy before moving further. Dealing with counter attack/enemy regroup. 

Note: This mission got perfect conditions for a reason of showing some core principals. In real battle you should expect involvement of heavy armor (will talk about it later), aviation (will talk about it later), intell will not always be there from the very start (will talk about it later), and so on. The reason for this series is to introduce players who werent using massive amounts of units with some basics related to managment of huge force at once. Again - in real battle you will not have these conditions but by viewing this topic you might pick up something what you can further adopt to your own battles. Last but not least - fair and unfair scenarios will be shown here within time. This topic is not for days its for years to come so be patient - feel free to share your tactical lifehacks and feel free to ask questions. Critics are welcome as well - but a constructive one (imagine we are all sitting in HQ and thinking how to do things better together). 

While controling factory, while using some time to set up new fire missions, relocate your reserves, and prepare path for the 3rd company keep in mind that enemy can try to relocate or regroup. In this particular series Im talking about a battalion what will attack a company so its 450 + men against 166. Reason for this is because it would be comfortable to show macro/micro and there was and will be a lot of small elements what I was and keep on bringing up such as how to eneter urban area, how to move away from an arty strike and so on. Basic stuff. So lets look on what is happening with our company n2 after it took control over factory (in the same time the 1st platoon of the 1st company is hunting through left lank treeline). 

This is how 2nd company looks like after taking over that factory. 

7RZEd18.png

With right flank being covered by 1st company and the rear being covered with third it is a good time to start checking areas on the left from that factory so that 3rd company advance will not be interrupted by any mines. 

QZy558v.png

While all this was happening - enemy in the forest supressed by constant mortar fire had to move out. It was completely cutted out from the left so the only place it could go was straight on a factory. 

zTn8Mqb.png

2nd company became a sheild of a center zone. 

cDOwaf8.png

rgydcR5.png

even infantry units were engaging some desparate enemy infantry. 

FImHMtR.png

In the same time one of those last enemy vehicles was trying to move on the left. 

5kYbbUg.png

 

OtAdtfQ.png

4kjEooC.png

Basically its a good thing. If you want to modulate a real world situation when a battalion attacks a company it will all progress kind of I've shown in these posts. Massive power  will be taking advantage over smaller in numbers enemy - and there will be no chance for survival. The only reasons to play a game like this are these: 1 - you want to try commanding large number force for the first time. 2 - you want to checkout how would military math (platoon against squad, company against platoon, battalion over 1 or 2c ompanies) would feel like in the game.  3 - to practice certain elements in comfort. 4 - just for your own interest an pleasure. For example my favorite is Meeting egagement of a battalion on battalion. In this case we are looking on perfect condidtions assault. And actually in real life they would be perfect - battalion would usually start an attack on a smaller force as an element of a regiment, it would attack only on those discovered positions and nobody would risk such a big force without proper intel and arty support. Obviusly in a multiplayer game you will never be so free in your actions so take this particular series only as a showcase. 

 

i3g3ZYb.png

Note: Usually AI moves its units at several places at the same time. So for example if it would make a move at one place you should look around because there will be something happening in another. 

So after you done with that desperate move from your enemy it is time to get your 3rd company in the game. 

FWzvVOE.png

GIYjT9u.png

Bringing your final element into the game while doing a battalion level battle will be an important moment. Now its all about hunting survirvals, cleaning up treelines, and again adjusting your frontlines. 

Conclusion: on the battalion level assault of a company: pick a right place to advance so that your order will not be messed up. Use 2 companies in front and keep your 3rd in the back. After each turn look on what changed, adjust your pathways so that they will not intercross one another. Place your infantry in the right spot at the right distance. Be sure that you can relocate fast. Do not spread your units too much. Keep your enemy under constant fire. Pick your arty targets wise. Know when and how to use an arty strike. If you are going to get into some urban area - provide cover for your advansing units. Pick buildings you going to use and what to destroy. Dont use massive infantry forces while making first enter. Support your infantry with heavy infantry wepons systems (like AGS). Try to choose positions for your vehicles and heavy weapons in a way in which they will be able to work on different targets at the same time. Keep the order of your flanks. Use sappers a lot. Relocate your reserves when possible for better accesss to them. Use certain elements as a shield while other elements as a spear. Keep in mind your general plan. Move through treelines carefully. It is better to attack an enemy what has been under fire. Use your special forces wisely. Do not rush. Do things step by step. Keep your nerves under control. Do not leave your vehicles without your infantry cover and try not to operate with your infantry without vehicles covering it. Look out for enemy arty strikes -  It is important to locate first few shells and take action before arty will get concentrated. On the open areas move in large numbers, try to use terrain to your advantage. Always check your flanks. Give different units different task - do not over use same exact unit. Keep your forces and your mind flexible. Playing easy missions like this will help you to find out more about forces under your command. Later when you will get into harsher conditions you will be familiar with your units capabilities. Do not apply same approach to each battle - there are no universal solutions. Start from easy things and then move towards harder things. Dont forget to enjoy your game. P.S. Not everything you do should be fitting multiplayer games - you bought this game for your own pleasure dont let people to change that. Feel free to share your tactics, screenshots, and ideas here. Here you will alway be welcome. Good luck in your battles and I hope that some of you have enjoyed this series consists of 25 different parts. 

There will be a lot more battles, tircks and approaches shown and posted here and dont forget to checkout those earlier pages where other players shared their tactics.  Good luck! 

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55 minutes ago, Erwin said:

If you think it wrong then why not offer your own detailed analysis as to what you would do in the above scenario circumstances. It's very easy to criticize and sneer.  Alternative helpful/constructive viewpoints are welcome. 

As most of us agree, CMBS is the hardest CM2 game to master.  At least Olek is making an effort to provide tactical advice.  Something very rare these days. 

 

50 minutes ago, Erwin said:

There are many things that I would not do either. However, it is fascinating to see how others handle a situation and there is always something to learn.  And as said, Olek AFAIK is the only person here attempting detailed analysis.

If others are now doing so, that is very welcome.

I have already asked for a demonstration of Olek's tips 'in the wild' as it were and for my trouble have received nought but evasion and, to be frank, barely coherent gibberish that can be summed up as "my tactics are beyond criticism, how dare you ask me to put my money where my mouth is." But very well, I'll bite. I think that the use of 203mm heavy artillery not to suppress, mask or destroy the enemy, the raison d'etre of any artillery piece, but to make foxholes for the purpose of advancing over open terrain in the face of the enemy, is, to put it mildly, a gross misapplication of a rare and expensive asset. Let us consider the picture he presented back there: a mechanised infantry attack is made, but instead of using the cover available, the commander intends to make his attack across open ground. Now, if the artillery had been used to suppress the enemy, as any sane commander would have used it for, this type of attack might not be a bad idea. However, the artillery is instead used to make foxholes in the open ground in front of the enemy. The attack goes in and the battlegroup is flayed alive by the very much alive and unsuppressed enemy. The foxholes so thoughtfully provided by the artillery are a cold comfort surviving infantry, as whatever had the power to wipe out an advance by IFVs or APCs is presumably well able to eviscerate a force of decimated and demoralised dismounts. The infantry is now pinned in the field, unable to either advance or retreat. Now, if the enemy hadn't been present, or if they had been weak enough to be overcome by the mechanised attack alone, then congrats, you've just used a very rare and expensive asset for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

Is that a detailed enough analysis for you?

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The point is that it might work in this game.  Am certain that I have read similar "unusual" tactics recommended by others on these forums over the years when faced with unusual situations.  Would you do it real life - that's a different issue.  As I said, it would make for an amusing movie to have a CM player accidentally being given command of a RL formation due to a comical misunderstanding. 

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To be clear, I disagree with 50-60% of the advice given here. I also thought that 203mm use was terrible. And I have zero mil experience. 

Still, I think the conversation is good to keep going. I like the idea of a "FM-001"  being built up for CMBS.... Maybe vet this thread heavily, but at least someone has started. 

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