This is unacceptable.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

Ok, after five plays through the "Honour is Loyalty" battle (the big one, last on the list in 'Battles') I gave up trying to spot what I felt sure was something badly off. I remembered advice from years ago, that what the player can see through trees and bushes etc isn't necessarily what the little chaps in the code can see. Big battle, fog of war, lot of stress on the CPU etc. I heaved a sigh and moved on.

On to a campaign battle, the Kampfgruppe at Falaise (eight-mission gig). The first mission is where I finally nailed what I'd been suspecting since I dropped $105 for this bundle a few days ago. This isn't a big mission, it's tiny and should present no challenge to my 2500k (judging by the speed at which it calculates the turns, less than three seconds in most cases). First the video, which I captured with my phone:

In big battles one might argue the player wouldn't even notice this (but I do, just couldn't directly witness what I felt was going on). In a small battle like this however...only two MkIVs and one Panther (the Lynxs, pft), it's pretty critical. You can see the MkIV I lost to this invisible cheat. A half-track was also hit and driven off right when I needed its MG support. Far left of the screen was the only US tank I could see, a Stuart, which I suspected was the culprit, even though it and its gun were facing away (turned out it was already dead from my other MkIV down the slope in front of it). So I spent ages trying to identify what could have knocked out the MkIV and what was repeatedly hitting the Panther. Then I spotted what you see in the video.

I don't know if this is a bug or some kind of 'game-balancing' cheating going on but it's put me totally off playing any more. On a small battle like this it's the difference between victory and defeat and it's not the experience I expected when I handed over $105. That's £75 in English money, not an inconsiderable amount for a PC game. So I guess I'd like some answers and if this is typical of the code I'd like a refund, under the 'not fit for purpose' clause. I'm not saying nobody else should enjoy this game, even knowing it does this, but I simply cannot.

Any dev who reads this, please feel free to PM or email me to resolve the issue. TIA.

[Bulletpoint]

I had a similar, but different, situation in my recent H2H game. Knowing a Panther had moved out of cover, I sent a bazooka team to crawl up along a hedge to hit it in the rear. Once they arrived, they spotted the tank, 50 metres away... the bazooka guy started aiming... then suddenly the tank disappeared and the guy with the bazooka went back to "spotting".

Meanwhile, the Panther was starting to turn around, I saw this by another team that had a visual on it. After maybe 4-5 important seconds, the tank had almost completed turning, then the bazooka guy saw it again. He fired twice but it was useless now that the tank had turned.

So, it was like your situation, a very close by tank disappears, even for a team of 4 infantry, so it's not just a matter of limited situational awareness for tanks.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[5th SS Div Wiking]

That's what I've worked out. The half-track crew didn't 'see' it either, nor did either of the un-buttoned tank commanders. They all had a clear and direct LOS to it as they drove up to it. In the big game I played five times I was having tanks knocked out left, right and centre by shots I couldn't understand. Even one in a field surrounded by three lines of hedges. I figured it was the old "enemy tank commander can spot my tank through three fortunately aligned tiny gaps in three hedges spaced 10m apart each from god only knows how many hundreds of meters away." I lol but it's really not good enough for £75.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

Just been having another go with the in-game replay. Two of my guys from the adjacent building can see the Sherman right from the start of the turn. But two veteran tank-crews couldn't, right under their noses. The half-track driver is 'regular', the ammo-bearer on the gun is 'crack'.

I think the devs need to re-consider this whole thing where the player can't see an enemy unit unless he has an asset high-lighted that can. It's way too glitchy. I'm going to assume some players are able to live with it but I think the majority don't properly realise it's going on.

Edited January 18, 2016 by 5th SS Div Wiking
Typo.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

Something I've just noticed, watching the replay from another angle. Three times, before the Panther sees the Sherman and hits it, a blue line appears from the Panther on the ground in front of it. Is that indicating one of the crew having a look? If it is, should have gone to spec-savers. Lol. The Panther and the blue line that pops out of it are pointed directly at the Sherman. Each time the Sherman fires and hits the Panther the blue line pops out of it.

This sort of glitch is happening massively in the big battles and is very apparent, even without directly witnessing it. The number of "Oh for god's sake, COME ON!" moments are intuition screaming its head off.

[womble]

Well, one thing it isn't is a cheating AI. The AI works under exactly the same rules as a human player, and if that situation had occurrred with exactly the same geometry and timing (and RNG seed etc etc) in a HvH game, the spotting results would have been identical.

From what I see, it looks like you're saying the german tanks couldn't spot a sherman which was hiding like a Ninja behind a single tree. It's not clear what went before, nor the exact geometry of what's going on. Do you have a save game? If you do, don't throw it away, because it could identify a possible bug.

But it might just be about spotting cycles, or crew skill. Spotting cycles don't speed up with rig power/load ratios, they're just set by the game at a 7s default, more often for closer entities. LOS is deterministic, but spotting isn't. Sometimes you "roll a 1" and don't see what "ought to be obvious", which is just the way human perception works, especially through narrow FoV ports and in the stress of combat.

What we can't (and won't ever be permitted to) see is how close to the "edge" of spotting/LOS our elements actually are. Being gamist bastidges, we tend to push things as close to the edges as possible, and hope that it's to our advantage. Sometimes it's not so much. But it is a game, and it is limited by practicalities, and there will always (no matter how finely developed) be edge cases where the simulation doesn't quite suffice to represent what you think is "reasonable" IRL. And this will be true of any and all computer games ever. For the money, CM's as close as you're going to get right now, and for the foreseeable future.

Good luck in the Small Claims Court proving on balance of probabilities that the game isn't "fit for purpose". If this claim fitted the criteria of "unfit for purpose", most computer games ever made would have gone bankrupt from refund claims.

Oh and your last post simply proves that you don't have a foggy clue about what the relative spotting model is trying to do (and 99.999% of the time succeeding at doing).

I think the devs need to re-consider this whole thing where the player can't see an enemy unit unless he has an asset high-lighted that can. It's way too glitch. I'm going to assume some players are able to live with it but I think the majority don't properly realise it's going on.

So you want all enemy units to be visible all the time? So much for Fog of War. Spotting is per unit, as you somehow comprehend when you bring the skill levels of the Panzer crews into the question, but fail to see the importance of in the whole paradigm of the game.

Yes, this looks hinky. But one angle from a phone capture of the action isn't going to prove that it is. Put the replay up on Dropbox and stick a link to it so others can examine it and either say "Yeah, definitely dodgy," (and pass on to BFC for either comment or further refinement of the engine) or educate you on some factor that's pertinent that you're missing. At first blush, I'd say it's likely to be the former, but I've seen enough occasions in my own games where the anomaly was eventually explicable.

Edit: the blue line is a Face order. It means the tank's TacAI has recognised that it's being fired on from that direction, and is rotating its hull and gun to face the threat that it hasn't yet localised (possibly because of the tree foliage, or the commander's LOS being blocked by the burning PzIV.

 

Edit 2: As I've said above (and it bears repeating) there are times when the engine doesn't handle spotting how you'd expect. IME, though, it's extremely rare. Even if I'm only considering the major units (armour etc), it doesn't happen as often as you seem to be reporting in this one battle. And when you consider the literal millions of LOS/Spotting interactions that are calculated every game, it's an absolutely miniscule proportion, overall. But then I don't often have armour encountering each other at 50m.

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by womble
Additional

[Pak40]

 

I don't know if this is a bug or some kind of 'game-balancing' cheating going on but it's put me totally off playing any more. On a small battle like this it's the difference between victory and defeat and it's not the experience I expected when I handed over $105. That's £75 in English money, not an inconsiderable amount for a PC game. So I guess I'd like some answers and if this is typical of the code I'd like a refund, under the 'not fit for purpose' clause. I'm not saying nobody else should enjoy this game, even knowing it does this, but I simply cannot.

Any dev who reads this, please feel free to PM or email me to resolve the issue. TIA.

I'm not sure why you would think this is game balancing. Clearly it's a bug and a rare one at that. Your best bet is to submit the saved turn if you have it.

[General Jack Ripper]

Three times, before the Panther sees the Sherman and hits it, a blue line appears from the Panther on the ground in front of it. Is that indicating one of the crew having a look?

No. What that is indicating is the tank attempting to execute a [Face] command and turn towards the incoming fire, so it can spot the enemy with it's optics, which it does in short order, and returns fire killing the Sherman. RTFM, before coming onto the forums and complaining. Relative spotting doesn't mean a unit is actually invisible, it just means the selected unit cannot see the enemy at the moment.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

I still have the game running with the same one-minute bit. I've just been having a look from inside the tank. Veteran crew, driver, radio-man and commander all spotting, the Sherman is approx. 30m away, 100% directly in front of the Panther. That gives those three crewmen a direct LOS. Damage says 'Optics' but I'm assuming that means the cannon's sights rather than the visors for all three of those crewmen. The gunner is still able to fire his cannon elsewhere however so I guess his optic is only cracked or something.

To answer one of the questions...if the fog-of-war is this glitchy I'd rather be able to see all enemy units all of the time, or have it as a switchable option for SP. I prefer fog-of-war but with it this bent it makes the game completely un-enjoyable for me. So it's not intentional 'cheating' or 'game-balancing' but the effect is the same. Instead of enjoying the play I'm getting frustrated by incidents like this, directly witnessed or not. And now I've directly witnessed one and will forever know it's happening...

I'll save the game at this point and make it available for anyone who wants it. Instructions will be required on where to find the file though. Etc.

[General Jack Ripper]

Optics means optics.

If you want to see everyone at once, play on the Basic Training difficulty setting, where you get the old-style 'borg spotting', instead of the relative spotting model.

Like I said, RTFM.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

In the big battle I've played five times I've lost count of the number of times I've seen an enemy tank from a unit that can 'see' it, then switched to a Panther (only have Panthers in that battle) and literally hollered "HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!!!" at the screen. Lol. So yeah, something isn't right and here's the proof.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

Well here's the thing Womble...if I can't drive a veteran-crewed Panther directly towards a Sherman approx. 30m away and not have the crew spot it and kill it, I don't want the game. And I take everything you say about the imperfections of computer games but this particular issue belongs in the nineties, not 2016. No wonder the 2nd SS were performing like greenhorns in the big battle I re-played five times. And god-help the actual greenhorns! Lol.

[5th SS Div Wiking]

Sorry Slim, didn't see your post earlier (maybe the forum has a relative-spotting function. Lol).

Yeah, RTFM. Unfortunately there are six that came with the game and I relied upon my rusty knowledge of years ago to allow me to play without that onerous chore. It would have made no difference, the absolute proof is in the videos above and it's not of a standard acceptable for a £75 outlay. Sorry but that's just how I feel. In my opinion the 'relative spotting' code is badly sub-par and needs fixing.

Oh, thanks for the tip about the Basic Training mode, I didn't know that. Doesn't it also turn the AI into complete idiots though?

Edited January 18, 2016 by 5th SS Div Wiking

[mbarbaric]

until someone from BF take a look at this we will harldy know if it is a bug or somethign else.

however, what we certainly do know is that this doesn't happen regularly at all. it is very odd and certainly not representative for the game in whole. just go to editor and put two tanks in similar positions and you will see different result. what we miss here is the context of this particular situation.

anyway, no need to draatize, head over to bugs section and upload it so it gets sorted if indeed it is a bug. or only distracted green crew that just sucked three shells.

 

in meanwhile, it really isn't common at all to make you go away from the game completely.

[Bulletpoint]

I'm wondering if the burning tank has anything to do with this. We as players see the smoke going straight up and not obscuring anything, but maybe the underlying game code treats the area immediately around the tank as being a bit smoked up?

Just a guess.

[mbarbaric]

I'm wondering if the burning tank has anything to do with this. We as players see the smoke going straight up and not obscuring anything, but maybe the underlying game code treats the area immediately around the tank as being a bit smoked up?

Just a guess.

indeed, i think even more likely is that (if that tank blew recently) the tank crew we are watching is still stressed and hiding somewere inside the shells instead of looking right ahead and spotting that tank

[Bulletpoint]

indeed, i think even more likely is that (if that tank blew recently) the tank crew we are watching is still stressed and hiding somewere inside the shells instead of looking right ahead and spotting that tank

You might be on to something. Because units get shocked when their comrades die - even if they are on the other side of the map and outside of contact, they immediately get a morale condition hit).

Scratch that, Just checked the video and the crew are cool as cucumbers.

I now think it has to do with the tree in front. Probably all tanks behind a tree get some kind of "hide bonus", even though it seems ridiculous when the leaves don't go down to ground level.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[5th SS Div Wiking]

If that was the case BP shouldn't the Sherman crew have been equally unable to see the Panther?

MB, you say it's not common but I re-played the big battle five times, in different ways, specifically to try and get my head around what I was 'feeling'. The thing just didn't feel right. The basic feeling I had was that my entire force was comprised of half-blind idiots while the enemy were war-gods. I switched from sending my tanks in (me moving, enemy static and in hiding, of course I'm going to get creamed) to me being static and in hiding. Guess what happened...I still got creamed. I finally 'won' the battle by group-selecting all my forces and sending them in en-masse (an act of absolute frustration I have to admit), as patience and what passes for my skill seemed to be getting nowhere. I secured three of the six required locations.

Played at 'Veteran' level.

[Bulletpoint]

If that was the case BP shouldn't the Sherman crew have been equally unable to see the Panther?

Not if spotting is based on chance with modifiers. So each tank would have a chance to spot the other tank, based on distance, visibility, experience, etc. and that chance would then be cut by maybe 30 pct by the tree. The Sherman got lucky with its "dice roll".

I don't know if this is the way the game actually works though. It's just me doing my best to explain your situation and many similar situations that I have been in.

Just recently I wrote on this forum about a tank battle where dust suddenly blocked Line of Sight, my tank lost visual and stopped firing, the other tank kept shooting and killed my guys. So smoke/dust seems to not be a yes/no spotting switch, more like a modifier.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[A Canadian Cat]

So you want all enemy units to be visible all the time? So much for Fog of War. Spotting is per unit, as you somehow comprehend when you bring the skill levels of the Panzer crews into the question, but fail to see the importance of in the whole paradigm of the game.

Yes, this looks hinky. But one angle from a phone capture of the action isn't going to prove that it is. Put the replay up on Dropbox and stick a link to it so others can examine it and either say "Yeah, definitely dodgy,"

Like @womble said, we really do not want the fog of war to be lifted.  So much of the time expectation is the key.  Stop expecting that an particular crew or solider is going to know or see what you already know is there.  The game does not work that way because real life does not work that way.  The code is trying to simulate soldiers with incomplete information and human characteristics and equipment in various conditions.  This is not a first person shooter where the game presents you with the picture of the entire world and you get to search for the enemy.  This game is simulating if or if not each crew and soldier detects the enemy.

I am sure we all have been in a situation where we notice something interesting and the friends standing right next to us do not notice it and even have trouble noticing even after you tell them where to look.  Happens to me all the time.  Perhaps you are one of the people that is consonantly trying to get their friends to clue into the world around them.

 

Edit 2: As I've said above (and it bears repeating) there are times when the engine doesn't handle spotting how you'd expect. IME, though, it's extremely rare. Even if I'm only considering the major units (armour etc), it doesn't happen as often as you seem to be reporting in this one battle. And when you consider the literal millions of LOS/Spotting interactions that are calculated every game, it's an absolutely miniscule proportion, overall. But then I don't often have armour encountering each other at 50m.

Indeed.  And frankly close in ranges like this is where the simulation starts getting stressed.  We often have people with issues when units get this close and changes were made a while back to help (what someone said about spotting happening at intervals and those intervals getting shorter for units in close proximity to each other).  That definitely made things better but it is still at the edge from what I can see.  Having said that there are a few things here worth considering...

 

I'm not sure why you would think this is game balancing. Clearly it's a bug and a rare one at that. Your best bet is to submit the saved turn if you have it.

I am not convinced.  There are two things to keep in mind. First chance: there is chance involved in all these encounters and something that happens only rarely can still happen and if you recalculated the turn multiple times something else might happen all the other times you try it.  Stuff happens, get over it, we all have to.  Second look at the conditions here.  The Panther does have optics damage - sorry but that does make spotting harder.  also there is a burning tank to the right and a tree partly in the way.  It could very well be that the commander has an obscured view, the loader has smoke in the way an the driver is trying to keep the tank facing the right way according to the best the gunner can figure the incoming fire is coming from.  Suddenly it is not a huge surprise that the crew took 20-30s to figure out what was what.

 

Not if spotting is based on chance with modifiers. So each tank would have a chance to spot the other tank, based on distance, visibility, experience, etc. and that chance would then be cut by maybe 30 pct by the tree. The Sherman got lucky with its "dice roll".

I try not to think of it that way (I try to think of it more like I describe above - the people) but at some level some computer generated chance is happening.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Bottom line @5th SS Div Wiking I am sorry you are having a frustrating time but I assure you of a few things a) if you do find a bug and do the work to show it BFC will fix it and b ) the chances are you have not found a bug and c) you will be happier if you adjust your thinking from "why can't my pixel troops behave perfectly at all times" to "that clever enemy out foxed me again" and "damn **** happens on the battlefield" and finally d ) on balance things are handled well and as you get better at tactics you will come out on top more times then not.

[Bulletpoint]

I try not to think of it that way (I try to think of it more like I describe above - the people) but at some level some computer generated chance is happening.

I understand where you're coming from, but I was just trying to figure out possible reasons why the game engine might give the result in this case. It might be the tree somehow interfering, even though it wouldn't in real life.

[Blazing 88's]

...c) you will be happier if you adjust your thinking from "why can't my pixel troops behave perfectly at all times" to "that clever enemy out foxed me again" and "damn **** happens on the battlefield" and finally...

Exactly why I have, through all these years of using CM, never had an issue with how things transpire on my digital battlefields.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Blazing 88's

[A Canadian Cat]

I understand where you're coming from, but I was just trying to figure out possible reasons why the game engine might give the result in this case. It might be the tree somehow interfering, even though it wouldn't in real life.

Yes, I am just speculating.  We do not get to see under the hood, we just get to speculate.  I really could have just been a case of the Panther lost the "die" role a couple of times.  It is not like the Panther never saw the enemy Sherman it just took 20-30s.

[IICptMillerII]

Sounds like someone is upset that his Ubermensch aren't uber enough...

It's worth asking the question, seeing as you are so critical of the spotting system and this tank crew in particular; have you ever been a crewman of a Panther tank taking point blank, accurate fire from an enemy tank? If so, please let us know how your situation was different than the one being simulated in this battle! Otherwise, I think I'll side with the painstakingly researched simulation which, might I add works for hundreds of other players. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is, deal with it. 

If you have a question as to how to improve your play and get better, then by all means ask away on the forums. There is a lot of information here and a community more than willing to help. 

If this issue has completely ruined the game for you, then contact the developers through personal communication (PMs and emails) and attempt a refund. There is no need for throwing a tantrum (and yes it is a tantrum, seeing as you have stated that you want a refund and nothing to do with CM anymore, there is nothing constructive about this thread) on a public forum. 

Edited January 18, 2016 by IICptMillerII