5th SS Div Wiking

Well, everything you say right there kind of makes a bigger deal of somebody with just a few hours on this particular iteration of CM finding something you've never seen before. Yes, I was looking for proof of what was bugging me (what I thought was something not right I'd experienced big time in the larger battle) and I found it. What I found might not be what I think it is, and the consensus here is it's just a monumental fluke. Bottom line is it put me off the game but everyone who loves it can and will continue to enjoy the hell out of it. Good. I've got my refund so although I'm sad I can't get the same enjoyment out of the game I don't feel ripped off, thanks to Steve being a gent. It's all about perception in the final analysis, whether or not an actual issue exists. Anyway, thanks to Steve for his forbearance and I'll leave you guys to your enjoyment of the game and wish you all the best. Salute!

The most significant thing I've taken from this is how long apart the spotting-cycles are and how much better they could be if the game could take advantage of full CPU power. I have a feeling the game would be transformed, at least to those who suffer the 'can't quite put my finger on what's wrong' syndrome. Think about it...it takes seven seconds for the virtual commander to check his surroundings? In real life he'd be in his cupola, spinning his head from one visor to the next so fast he'd fall over if made to walk. What you have now is a knife-fight where one or both participants might be blind-folded, hand-tied or both. Randomly. Sure, somebody eventually gets stabbed but it's not a fight I'd pay to see. Or more like Russian Roulette. Is there really any appreciable amount of skill under such constraints? Probably, if trying to outwit the code is part of the battle. But that's not fun either. I suspect running multiple cores doesn't equate to an exponential increase in performance. Probably not a straight-forward linear one either. But an extra 20...40...50%? I think spotting is a pretty huge elephant in this game's room right now.

People can slice this pie in any one or combination of numerous ways but it'll always come back to an enemy tank about 30m away in clear view to a veteran crew in good shape, three of who were actively looking out, and their tank in decent mechanical order. Now consider the chance of a player happening to directly witness the moment vs the number of times it inevitably goes unnoticed (but gives cause to that uneasy overall feeling some of us have). Personally I do not think this is a rare event, I think it's very common. The chances of it being rare AND witnessed...do the math. Lol.

My experience is somewhat different, though it's more of an overall feeling during a long battle. Things just don't seem to gell realistically. Too much stuff that I'm 100% sure is hidden gets knocked out, way too quickly and easily. So like I said before, I thought it was code LOS vs player LOS and shrugged my shoulders. But thinking there would never be a way to direct forces to an apparently safe area, due to my human LOS not matching the code's, that was already enough to dampen my enthusiasm. Then when I saw what's in the video I figured probably a lot of what was causing the mysterious kills were unseen enemy units that my guys should have spotted a lot sooner, instead of just bumbling along under fire until KO'd. It was a whole lot of very un-specific stuff that I couldn't nail down until the incident in the video and it was really doing my head in. Kind of like "Is it me? What am I doing wrong? Or is it the game, bugged or game-balanced/cheating?" Well, bottom line is I don't play for that kind of experience. I can deal with the occasional WTF moment, that's part and parcel of pretty much any computer game, but to be subjected to entire hours of it is over-whelming. I get the reasons as stated, they're legit. But I think it's also legit to expect a game at this price-point to be up to date regarding how it runs with modern hardware. If realism is being restricted by single-core inability to run the code fast enough then the game needs to be re-evaluated in numerous ways, in my opinion. But on the other hand, enough people are OK with it the way it is and provide a viable business-model to BF. Not that I have the faintest clue how many people have bought it and just quietly shelved it a couple of weeks later because of that 'can't put my finger on it' feeling. To answer the question about saves, I'm afraid not (that would have meant me saving the game every single turn?). I save only when I'm closing down the game (or to record a specific incident, this one being the first and only).

My thinking is the commander should have immediately spotted the Sherman and directed the gunner to traverse until he had it in his sights. The inability of the gunner to spot the Sherman through his optic is irrelevant in my opinion. If the commander had spotted the US mortar team and directed fire onto it, once that was underway he'd go to checking through the cupola visors in order to maintain best SA (assuming all three crew-members failed to spot the Sherman in the first place). I've narrowed the issue down to this: the game isn't able to use multi-threading, which restricts spotting cycles to levels manageable by a single core, which means in-game assets are, effectively, sight-impaired. In a big battle most of this seems to go un-noticed by most players, so maybe it's a peculiarity in those who do notice it (me being one). Personally I think that if this game can be made to use multi-core CPUs to their full extent it will blow the lid off the genre.

This might work: https://jumpshare.com/v/telfGU9eKDYh7IutjC5A

I've found the file but it's 40MB (thought I'd be able to upload it here but the forum limit is 500KB). That threw me! 40MB?! Wow!

From what I've read about multi-threading in the past, I think you're right. But then we get into the territory of claims made for the game vs its relationship with modern hardware and if something isn't stated up-front a purchaser might be forgiven for reading the claims and making an erroneous assumption in that regard. I guess BF are caught between a rock and a hard place, because any solution to that issue is going to require considerable monies (I guess). And let's be clear and fair on that issue. You cannot attempt to excuse a game's limitations by referring to lack of PC power when the game in question isn't able to take advantage of multi-threading. That's like excusing a race-car's failure to win a race by saying it was using only one cylinder in it's V4 engine.

The power of positive thought. Unfortunately I consider those moments to be so frequent that I've amused myself by thinking of issuing all my soldiers with white sticks. At least now the reasons have been explained: lack of CPU power vs LOS check-cycles. In effect all the soldiers in the game are partially sighted. And I have no desire to be able to unrealistically surprise an enemy unit any more than I want my units to suffer it themselves, it destroys the suspension-of-disbelief factor that is vital to games (the power of positive thinking not withstanding).

If the issue is one of CPU power, as has been suggested, maybe an obvious solution would be to get this game running on all the available cores of a given CPU? I asked about this in another thread and was told CM still uses only one core in any multi-core CPU. Give the game more CPU power and couldn't these LOS checks etc be ramped up such that situations like this don't occur? I played the older games a hell of a lot in the past and it always made me scratch my head how a tank could frequently fail to see another tank but had an uncanny ability to spot a slowly crawling bazooka guy in a hedgeline or a spotter in a window, which it would immediately fire at, having previously ignored the MG crew (or whatever) in that same window. I always assumed these were game-balances intended to check the 'uberness' of bazookas and spotters. If somebody would like to tell me how to extract the saved game-file I'll upload it to my server and then the experts here can grab and analyse it.

Steve's already being a stand-up guy so that side of things is sorted (refund). I appreciate the offers of help but this isn't about me not knowing how the game works, I was simply expecting too much intelligence from the AI. Yes, it could kind of be fudged around but there would be no enjoyment in it. It's probably a significant character-flaw but I do get quite irate when I see a veteran (or better) crew behaving like they've just caned a sack of peyote between them and getting their tank shot full of holes by some bunch of regulars in a bean-tin. And always that nagging suspicion that a tank on the other side of the map understood the magic of multiple tree-lines and bushes and hedges better than me and spotted the tank I'd hidden in a crater. With a house on top of it. Lol. I lack the zen is what it is.

I used to beat the AI tolerably well the few years ago I last played it. I still have the Italian front in a folder with the licence number (all the others I bought are long vanished). It was the MP WEGO de-syncing issue that killed it for us then. As for the SS thing, I really cannot be assed to get into a debate about it. My GF (Danish) fought with the Wiking, hence my interest. And he wasn't involved in any atrocities, he simply hated the communists. And kicked their asses.

Sorry CptMiller, you'll have to try that anti-SS rhetoric on somebody else, I'm very familiar with it and treat it with the derision it deserves. Maybe if you'd been there you'd have an excuse to hate (fear) them, but you weren't so you don't. Anymore than you have an excuse to project it onto me or anyone else. They're sprites on a screen, buffed accordingly. And, just in case it had slipped your attention, the battle in question had no SS in it.

No, I meant that apparently I suck at CM.

Well, I don't much enjoy micro-management for starters (a huge bone of contention between me and one of my brothers). I'd have my turn done and have time to go for dinner while he fed each of his soldiers with a spoon, took them to the khazi afterwards and then polished their asses for them. Lollol! Being a realism nut I tend to give the orders and rely on my minions to do an adequate job. "No, don't go in there like that, you fool, that's what the Volksturm are for. Dumkopf!" You probably can't imagine the state I got into when the half-track towing the 75mm PaK decided to leave the road, go into a woods, lose the 75mm and end up where I told it to go without its gun. It took me five minutes to find the bloody thing (I thought a bug had vanished it). That's kind of what happens with my orders, they're probably too sweeping. But when I do get right in, close and personal, that's just inviting a bigger headache, because then I get to see the stupidity magnified (like the Panther not seeing the Sherman). I did send my infantry in, but I refer you back to the micro-management...I don't go clicking through all my units each turn and swing the mouse around to see everything they can see. Is it normal to do that? I'd lose my mind! Other games...RO Darkest Hour, I'm a bit of a whizz in a tank. Cliffs of Dover, one of the premier aces of the LW, or so Hermann tells me. Lol. Driving games, I suck. CM too apparently.

I was fully aware I haven't given the game as much time as you would be entitled to ask of me, but at the exact same time of thinking it I also considered that to not request a refund immediately would cast a suspicion on one made somewhat later. In that case the point raised would likely have been something along the lines of "Why did you wait so long to raise an issue? Admit it, you've played the hell out of it and just got bored!" Lol. Damned if I did, damned if I didn't. I get everything you say about the CPU demands, it all makes perfect sense. So, in that context, maybe I did expect too much. It doesn't feel like I did; the idea of a tank driving straight at another tank, up to extremely close range, and not seeing it, despite being pounded by its gun, that kind of flies counter to pretty much everything I've experienced in (better funded, admittedly) other top-shelf games (yes, your game has a rep for top shelf). So it comes down to not being right or wrong, it just is what it is. But that being what it is, I can't enjoy it. The idea that that sort of deficiency (to be found in any game, as you say) is going on all the time, I'd end up pulling my hair out. Lol. To put it in a nutshell, I can't abide the thought that all my tanks are being crewed by half-blind idiots (effectively speaking). And, to be perfectly frank, if the virtual SS can't whup some serious ass I don't hold out any hopes for beating the AI with the Heer. Lol.

Should have mentioned I emailed support a couple of hours ago and requested a refund, with a link to this thread. Just waiting for a reply. Guys, I'm sure a lot of you would/will defend CM no matter what somebody brought up. And if you enjoy it the way it is, good luck to you. I have no intention or desire to put you off the game (why would I). But neither will I be told I should enjoy it, no matter what. I know this flaw, or call it what you will, is common; I just couldn't properly put my finger on it until I saw what's in the video. I thought my tanks were being taken out through holes in hedges (which itself would be bad enough). Now I reckon the more common culprit is invisible tanks that my veteran and crack crews can't spot, due to the way spotting is coded. I've never played WoT but I imagine the experience I've had with this might be somewhat similar. But WoT is free, CM isn't. Very expensive actually, which is fine if the customer feels he got what he thought he was paying for. The somewhat dated graphics, they're fine. I'd rather have grog-like realism. But the video I've posted shows a serious deficiency in that department and I'm not prepared to shrug my shoulders and accept a £75 coaster. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. Not that that is anything to do with why I posted the video, that was more of a reaction to a very WTF?! moment. I'm sure BF will have no desire in keeping such an unhappy customer, it's not like I just got bored. Quite the contrary, I'm gutted I can't enjoy the game because if it worked to the standard I assumed it possessed I would be more than happy.

Ah, Cpt Miller. Of course, it's all me and nothing to do with a game deficiency. It's a "tantrum". Much lol. Ian, it's all very well saying all the things you have said, and applied to an 'edge' scenario (as somebody described it) I'd be in full agreement. But this is about as far from that kind of scenario as one could get. The crew drove the Panther straight at the Sherman until approx. 30m away, noticed and took other stuff under fire but didn't spot the lethal threat right under their nose. No, I've not crewed a tank in combat but I've read more RL accounts from guys who did than I can count and I've seen my own share of non-armoured agg. That kind of fubar might happen once in a blue moon, to one messed up person, but not to three members of the same, veteran, crew at the same time. But it's just a game? Yes, it is. But if that's the best the game can do it's not worth £75 of my money. I expect more. The same kind of more other game-developers are able to deliver. Flakey at the edges but not in a bang-on, head-to-head, in-the-face, 30m stare-down. Not when it's now obvious it's happening as a norm, in all battles, to numerous units. That just sucks every single last drop of suspension-of-disbelief right out of the virtual bottle. My guess is it's just numbers in a table. So rachet those numbers up (or down) a few hundred percent, until what's in the video above can't happen, ever again. If it makes crews too hot? Better than dumb as HS in my opinion.

If that was the case BP shouldn't the Sherman crew have been equally unable to see the Panther? MB, you say it's not common but I re-played the big battle five times, in different ways, specifically to try and get my head around what I was 'feeling'. The thing just didn't feel right. The basic feeling I had was that my entire force was comprised of half-blind idiots while the enemy were war-gods. I switched from sending my tanks in (me moving, enemy static and in hiding, of course I'm going to get creamed) to me being static and in hiding. Guess what happened...I still got creamed. I finally 'won' the battle by group-selecting all my forces and sending them in en-masse (an act of absolute frustration I have to admit), as patience and what passes for my skill seemed to be getting nowhere. I secured three of the six required locations. Played at 'Veteran' level.

Sorry Slim, didn't see your post earlier (maybe the forum has a relative-spotting function. Lol). Yeah, RTFM. Unfortunately there are six that came with the game and I relied upon my rusty knowledge of years ago to allow me to play without that onerous chore. It would have made no difference, the absolute proof is in the videos above and it's not of a standard acceptable for a £75 outlay. Sorry but that's just how I feel. In my opinion the 'relative spotting' code is badly sub-par and needs fixing. Oh, thanks for the tip about the Basic Training mode, I didn't know that. Doesn't it also turn the AI into complete idiots though?

Well here's the thing Womble...if I can't drive a veteran-crewed Panther directly towards a Sherman approx. 30m away and not have the crew spot it and kill it, I don't want the game. And I take everything you say about the imperfections of computer games but this particular issue belongs in the nineties, not 2016. No wonder the 2nd SS were performing like greenhorns in the big battle I re-played five times. And god-help the actual greenhorns! Lol.

In the big battle I've played five times I've lost count of the number of times I've seen an enemy tank from a unit that can 'see' it, then switched to a Panther (only have Panthers in that battle) and literally hollered "HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!!!" at the screen. Lol. So yeah, something isn't right and here's the proof.

I still have the game running with the same one-minute bit. I've just been having a look from inside the tank. Veteran crew, driver, radio-man and commander all spotting, the Sherman is approx. 30m away, 100% directly in front of the Panther. That gives those three crewmen a direct LOS. Damage says 'Optics' but I'm assuming that means the cannon's sights rather than the visors for all three of those crewmen. The gunner is still able to fire his cannon elsewhere however so I guess his optic is only cracked or something. To answer one of the questions...if the fog-of-war is this glitchy I'd rather be able to see all enemy units all of the time, or have it as a switchable option for SP. I prefer fog-of-war but with it this bent it makes the game completely un-enjoyable for me. So it's not intentional 'cheating' or 'game-balancing' but the effect is the same. Instead of enjoying the play I'm getting frustrated by incidents like this, directly witnessed or not. And now I've directly witnessed one and will forever know it's happening... I'll save the game at this point and make it available for anyone who wants it. Instructions will be required on where to find the file though. Etc.

Something I've just noticed, watching the replay from another angle. Three times, before the Panther sees the Sherman and hits it, a blue line appears from the Panther on the ground in front of it. Is that indicating one of the crew having a look? If it is, should have gone to spec-savers. Lol. The Panther and the blue line that pops out of it are pointed directly at the Sherman. Each time the Sherman fires and hits the Panther the blue line pops out of it. This sort of glitch is happening massively in the big battles and is very apparent, even without directly witnessing it. The number of "Oh for god's sake, COME ON!" moments are intuition screaming its head off.

Just been having another go with the in-game replay. Two of my guys from the adjacent building can see the Sherman right from the start of the turn. But two veteran tank-crews couldn't, right under their noses. The half-track driver is 'regular', the ammo-bearer on the gun is 'crack'. I think the devs need to re-consider this whole thing where the player can't see an enemy unit unless he has an asset high-lighted that can. It's way too glitchy. I'm going to assume some players are able to live with it but I think the majority don't properly realise it's going on.