sell on Steam?

[A Canadian Cat]

This topic made The Flare Path on Rock Paper Shotgun.

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01/09/the-flare-path-full-steam-astern/#more-261519

 

 

Am I missing something?  That article looked like a shallow summary of this thread and offered no additional info on how great it would be on steam.  Absolutely no offense intended @astano BTW.

 

I am still scanning through the comments in case there is value there - so far not really.  I have to admit I don't understand peoples' position who insist they will only buy games via steam. 

 

Then again people often look at me strangely when I explain my position that I will not buy subscription software.  I respect your decision - it is yours.  I don't expect Adobe will change their position to only offer subscription licensing for some of their software though.  The key is respect. Adobe and I disagree and I have told them so - once.  I respect their decision and that is that.  They respected me by taking me off their mailing list

[von Luck]

Well maybe if enough people ask for steam it will happen. Otherwise the article is putting Battlefronts name out there. I would love for Battlefront to be successful enough so that things like patches don’t cost money and they could spend the time to update their web page or better yet their sales philosophy. Granted getting engine revamps is great but nickel and diming me for every source of content delivery is annoying. Earlier in this thread we were discussing the Wargame franchise – they have delivered multiple FREE DLC’s that add content with each of their games. I don’t even care that I bought EE, ALB, and RD – each was well supported with free content DLC. I’m ultimately fine with Battlefront not being on steam so long as their product is truly top notch. But they have many fronts they could improve upon. I love playing their games however things like volume sliders, or the insanity that is their patching system, or costly minor content delivery … the list goes on … and on! Bottom line I love the games but the clunky back end could improve.

von Luck

[sburke]

Well, alt tabbing to some application that allows you to chat in real time, exchange IPs and you're set.

That chat application could be the Steam client itself, pinging your contacts for a game.

Like ummm oh I don't know maybe cm helper which also processes your turns back and forth? Sorry had to do a promo for GAJ. It really is such a great PBEM tool.

[sburke]

Read the article, read through comments till I got bored. I agree with Ian. Whatever your position on the subject, this thread was more informative than that one and the critiques the article had about the discussion here were pretty much replicated there. Oh well it is a somewhat sensitive topic.

The main thing I got out of it is task force 1942 is back! I actually really liked that game in the short time I was able to play it. Pretty cool idea and fun to play.

For what it is worth, that game is on steam, I have a steam account and have been on it recently more than a few times. I will likely buy the game, but I did not find out about it on steam. I found it on an article I heard about on the battlefront site......hmm what is this argument about steam creating exposure again? Good thing for that developer that I read the battlefront forum!

Edited January 9, 2015 by sburke

[astano]

Am I missing something?  That article looked like a shallow summary of this thread and offered no additional info on how great it would be on steam.  Absolutely no offense intended @astano BTW.

 

No offense taken.  I just thought it was interesting that one of the more mainstream outlets to mention CM wrote about this thread in particular, and that others might too.

[L0ckAndL0ad]

“Wargaming appeals to a select few. It will not change by being exposed to more people. All it will do is expose more people to a game they don’t want.”

 

Pfffffft. I've learned about CM just few years ago. From a friend from my gaming community. Not from BFC site. The more people out there know about the existence of CM, the better. Steam is not only a store, but also a 8 million+ (or what is it now?) gaming community that spreads the word around. That's beside the usual marketing that also does that. Don't want the exposure? Whatever. But this is nonsense, not an argument.

[A Canadian Cat]

No offense taken.  I just thought it was interesting that one of the more mainstream outlets to mention CM wrote about this thread in particular, and that others might too.

 

Good, just making sure - since some tempers have been flairing.

[A Canadian Cat]

Pfffffft. I've learned about CM just few years ago. From a friend from my gaming community. Not from BFC site. The more people out there know about the existence of CM, the better. Steam is not only a store, but also a 8 million+ (or what is it now?) gaming community that spreads the word around. That's beside the usual marketing that also does that. Don't want the exposure? Whatever. But this is nonsense, not an argument.

 

But here in lies the problem: exposure to more people is not what Steve is objecting to. So, if people keep railing that BF is ignoring a large market they are missing the main point. It is the inability to control the way *his* product is sold the concerns *his* business. So, if he takes the leap and the loss of control hurts their profit margin and the magic of more exposure does not make up the difference then he loses *his* lively hood. As far as I can tell two things need to be satisfied for Steve to reconsider (of course that is up to him not me):

• Some hard facts about how this larger number of gamers will actually result in more people who want to play CM. Remember just repeating things like "but its x million people", "more exposure means more sales", or anything else like that does not count. That is not an argument and it does not help your position. You can say totally unsupported things all you like but it does not make them true. Go find some actual evidentiary support for those statements (Hint probably need to conduct market research, including focus groups etc.)
• Some clarity that Valve does not behave like a retail store. Steve has said they were hurt by (or at least disappointed with) other retail partner's actions in the past. Valve looks just like an old retail store from what Steve can see (*). Valve makes its game developers sign NDA agreements so there is no way to find out things that might reassure Steve (or not). Sadly this is not something that you, Steam advocates, can do much about because it is Valve’s policies. I recommend you go and share your passion about getting CM onto Steam with Valve and tell them that this is a problem they should fix.

* Note: this part makes me laugh. So many people keep saying senseless stuff like "BF should join the modern age" but it sure looks to me like Valve has a very 1980s retail store type business model. Sure it is dressed up with the latest tech but if the terms and conditions have not changed then I it seems to me Steam is the one stuck in the 1980s. Edited January 9, 2015 by ian.leslie

[PeterH]

Am I missing something?  That article looked like a shallow summary of this thread and offered no additional info on how great it would be on steam.  Absolutely no offense intended @astano BTW.

 

I am still scanning through the comments in case there is value there - so far not really.  I have to admit I don't understand peoples' position who insist they will only buy games via steam. 

 

Then again people often look at me strangely when I explain my position that I will not buy subscription software.  I respect your decision - it is yours.  I don't expect Adobe will change their position to only offer subscription licensing for some of their software though.  The key is respect. Adobe and I disagree and I have told them so - once.  I respect their decision and that is that.  They respected me by taking me off their mailing list

Just because you do not understand their position does not mean their position is in any way wrong. If Battlefront did go on steam I for one would hope that they kept their own store online for people such has yourself who would prefer not to be on steam.

In terms of my own humble opinion (and here I mean that as I will only be giving my own certain knowledge) I won't try to make a judgement on whether or not steam will increase Battlefront's revenue. I as a customer would very much appreciate the ability to have all of my combat mission games on steam, auto-updating with easy access to mods and a nice hub for community. Maybe even support for a more fully realized multiplayer. The ability to review the games on a platform of millions is also helpful, and I would be giving extremely positive ones at that. Simply put for my own very selfish reasons I would urge Battlefront to keep considering this as an option, even if it is just to keep folk like me happy.

For those mumbling and grumbling about "back in my day we used to write code to open applications" and "wow you are so lazy with your auto-updates what is the world coming to" you need to get a grip. Less time having to edit my games means more time to actually play them, see my friends, work and or better yet create something myself. It is not lazy to prefer not having to do these tasks, it is very much in human nature and I guarantee you will struggle to find many outside of your own age group who agree with you. I worry that when I get old, experienced and wise I will become stuck in my ways but never before have I seen a community so rigidly sticking to its ways. Though to be fair that is also precisely the reason I enjoy interacting here so much, the general level of respect and humor is usually ace. Aside from the rather pitiful showing in this thread so far.

 

@Steve The fact that this thread is shown in the"ye olde wargaming" section of a games news website reputed to be more old fashioned in their approach to media shows that this subject is of special interest to a large group of people. There is definitely a call for this, is it time to go and do a little more research?

Edited January 9, 2015 by PeterH

[AttorneyAtWar]

Just because you do not understand their position does not mean their position is in any way wrong. If Battlefront did go on steam I for one would hope that they kept their own store online for people suc has yourself who would prefer not to be on steam.

In terms of my own humble opinion (and here I mean that as I will only be giving my own certain knowledge) I won't try to make a judgement on whether or not steam will increase Battlefront's revenue. I as a customer would very much appreciate the ability to have all of my combat mission games on steam, auto-updating with easy access to mods and a nice hub for community. Maybe even support for a more fully realized multiplayer. The ability to revue the games on a platform of millions is also helpful, and I would be giving extremely positive ones at that. Simply put for my own very selfish reasons I would urge Battlefront to keep considering this as an option, even if it is just to keep folk like me happy.

For those mumbling and grumbling about "back in my day we used to write code to open applications" and "wow you are so lazy with your auto-updates what is the world coming to" you need to get a grip. Less time having to edit my games means more time to actually play them, see my friends, work and or better yet create something myself. It is not lazy to prefer not having to do these tasks, it is very much in human nature and I guarantee you will struggle to find many outside of your own age group who agree with you. I worry that when I get old, experienced and wise I will become stuck in my ways but never before have I seen a community so rigidly sticking to its ways. Though to be fair that is also precisely the reason I enjoy interacting here so much, the general level of respect and humor is usually ace. Aside from the rather pitiful showing in this thread so far.

 

@Steve The fact that this thread is shown in the"ye olde wargaming" section of a games news website reputed to be more old fashioned in their approach to media shows that this subject is of special interest to a large group of people. There is definitely a call for this, is it time to go and do a little more research?

 

Great point Peter, Steam Workshop would be amazing for CM, imagine having all of those texture packs for vehicles and campaign/ scenarios all in one place that's easy to navigate*

 

*This isn't a knock at the CM mods warehouse (Which is way more intuitive than the repository), I love that website, and chances are even with workshop I would still use and support it!

Edited January 9, 2015 by Raptorx7

[L0ckAndL0ad]

 

But here in lies the problem: exposure to more people is not what Steve is objecting to. So, if people keep railing that BF is ignoring a large market they are missing the main point. It is the inability to control the way *his* product is sold the concerns *his* business. So, if he takes the leap and the loss of control hurts their profit margin and the magic of more exposure does not make up the difference then he loses *his* lively hood. As far as I can tell two things need to be satisfied for Steve to reconsider (of course that is up to him not me):

Oh, sorry, don't be mistaken, I'm not trying to get involved in the community's effort of getting Steve to reconsider anything. It's just that this one "argument" is not really an argument IMO,  so I thought I could express my opinion about it here. Actually, it got me thinking more. The friend who told me about CM, did so accidentally, and long after he himself find out about the game. He easily could have just NOT told me about the game, and I wouldn't be here in the first place. So what I personally like about Steam is that it always shows me what my friends are playing, what they review, what screenshots they post, etc. And all in one place. So that also obviously helps to spread the word.

[SgtHatred]

 

 I have to admit I don't understand peoples' position who insist they will only buy games via steam. 

 

 

 

Trust, convenience, value... take your pick.

[m0317624]

Pfffffft. I've learned about CM just few years ago. From a friend from my gaming community. Not from BFC site. The more people out there know about the existence of CM, the better. Steam is not only a store, but also a 8 million+ (or what is it now?) gaming community that spreads the word around. That's beside the usual marketing that also does that. Don't want the exposure? Whatever. But this is nonsense, not an argument.

 

The number of Steam accounts is currently around 65 million, with a daily peak of nearly 8 million online at a single moment. The difference in exposure would be immense.

[Doug Williams]

Obviously that is complete nonsense and those people are clearly figments of our imagination. Steve and his decades of savvy business experience have proven decisively that everyone who will ever be interested in Combat Mission is already buying it from this site.

 

Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor, but I'll bite. How about you reveal your secret identity to us and tell us which computer wargames you have helped create and/or which computer wargame company you have successfully headed up for past 10+ years? Then we will all know why you so highly value your opinion of which business decisions BFC should make. It's one thing to express an opinion, it's another to be haughty about it.

[L0ckAndL0ad]

The number of Steam accounts is currently around 65 million, with a daily peak of nearly 8 million online at a single moment. The difference in exposure would be immense.

Say whaaat? That's like 1.4x Ukraine's population. Or 1.51x actually, excluding Crimea

[sburke]

Trust, convenience, value... take your pick.

Trust a third party but not the vendor?

 

Convenience- there may be an argument there, but I personally don't buy it.  However I get there are people who feel just going to steam or steam launcher or something is more convenient than me hitting my CM exe and launching my game.  Keep in mind I use Steam, I have first hand experience on a regular basis.  I find nothing about steam to work so much more conveniently.

 

Value for whom? The company we need to keep making the game is making less money per sale.  I really object to the whole steam rational that I see over and over on any thread involving steam folks and that is they are friggin cheap.  No offense to steam users here, I know you are paying full price for CM and would likely be happy to spend the same amount at steam for the game just for being able to have it in your steam catalog.  However back to that article, look at how much of the comments section is people going on and on about what they bought for half price and the mid week madness etc.  There is a large segment of that community that feels they should never be obligated to pay full price for something.  I find that annoying and disrespectful of the amount of effort it takes to do this and how few gaming houses there are doing good stuff.  Yes you can argue that CM doesn't have to do sales, but that then takes away a significant portion of the same audience that is supposed to be this wider base for Battlefront there. It is pretty senseless to keep trying to convince BF that there is a major market for them untapped, when they are comfortable with their current market growth and business plan.  The current one works and is inherently risk free because they have already been doing it.  Steam represents an unknown and therefore potential risk.  It is also a certain amount of effort BF would have to expend beyond what they are doing introducing more angst and effort.  There really isn't from their view much of an upside if you start with, "the current model is working, why fix something that isn't broken?"

Edited January 9, 2015 by sburke

[Jane's]

IIRC I'am using Steam since 2008. I use it everyday since i have Steam on autostart. I can agree that community there is huge and surely lot's and lot's of ppl would find out about CM. But i have to agree with Steve that those who are even mildly interested in wargames already know about CM and other niche wargames out there. 

 

I also can imagine that lot's of folks on Steam after buying and getting familliar with CM wouldn't be very happy with it. It's a hard game with a steep learning curve. It's quite expensive plus i'am almost sure that BF would get trashed over their modules and upgrades policy. Steam community is very demanding. They want lot's and they want it cheap (Steam sales). I bet CM would get tons of negative reviews because of that. And reviews are now a big part of Steam. They are visible to everyone under every game plus there's a summary opinion about a game. So a quick look and you know if game has positive, mixed or negative reviews. 

 

Plus there's the activation DRM. Ppl on Steam hate (and i don't blame them) other that Steam itself DRM's that are applied to games. 

 

All in all, as much as it might sound strange, CM might actually get bad reviews because of the above.

 

I know that Matrix put on Steam some of their games. I already bought 2 of them - Command Modern Air/Naval Operations and Flashpoint Campaigns Red Stom - both fantastic games. They appeard on Steam with quite a big disscount. But obviously we won't know how much impact on sales this action had and will have in the future.

 

Plus IMHO "no steam no buy" attitude is a feature of really young gamers. I can't imagine a mature CM player who says that. Steam is nice but remember that it's very restrictive and not consumer friendly. Basiclly it destroyed second hand market and you can't even trade games anymore. On top of that Steam can delete a game from your account when you violate the Steam agreement. So basiclly your're renting games nowadays.  

Edited January 9, 2015 by Jane's

[MarkEzra]

This is my personal view on Steam.  I'll preface my comment: If BFC uses steam-fine. If they don't-fine. If they say never and then change their minds (this one's for all you hopeful steamers out there)-fine!  It's BFC business... their actual livelihood, not mine.

 

So here's what I think about steam:  I'd never heard of it prior to forum comments when CMBN or one of the modules was released.  I read a few post and got a general idea of what steam was about.  I also came away with a sense of "Wow...some of these guys really believe in steam...like religiously."  But not my business... nor when BFC came out with a "Neyt" to steam was my business. But some folks just can't take "Neyt" for an answer.

 

So the subject just kept coming up, and up, and up.  As a result of this thread  I find myself NOT EVER wanting to take a look at what Steam can offer me.  Advertising is a funny thing, I guess...But hey, it's not my business. 

[Holien]

Up to Steve, but if it was me I would spend £100 and some time to investigate a bit further. The tech base has changed and as part of the R&D of any business it is worth getting solid facts, even if it costs a few bucks...

I have found some of the posts in this thread to be less than impressive. IMO the community needs new blood and if we can be civil without shouting people down then good things might come out of it.

[BlackAlpha]

Say whaaat? That's like 1.4x Ukraine's population. Or 1.51x actually, excluding Crimea

 

More like times 2. Steam has "100 million active accounts" according to Valve:

 

http://store.steampowered.com/news/14478/

Edited January 9, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[frez13]

Just saying, if Shock Force was put on Steam, I'll buy it again. One reason for it is so I won't have to deal with the license thingy anymore. Am serious. However I'll admit that I don't play the rest of the CM games because I'm mainly interested in modern/near-futuristic warfare settings.

[SgtHatred]

Trust a third party but not the vendor?

 

Convenience- there may be an argument there, but I personally don't buy it.  However I get there are people who feel just going to steam or steam launcher or something is more convenient than me hitting my CM exe and launching my game.  Keep in mind I use Steam, I have first hand experience on a regular basis.  I find nothing about steam to work so much more conveniently.

 

Value for whom? The company we need to keep making the game is making less money per sale.  I really object to the whole steam rational that I see over and over on any thread involving steam folks and that is they are friggin cheap.  No offense to steam users here, I know you are paying full price for CM and would likely be happy to spend the same amount at steam for the game just for being able to have it in your steam catalog.  However back to that article, look at how much of the comments section is people going on and on about what they bought for half price and the mid week madness etc.  There is a large segment of that community that feels they should never be obligated to pay full price for something.  I find that annoying and disrespectful of the amount of effort it takes to do this and how few gaming houses there are doing good stuff.  Yes you can argue that CM doesn't have to do sales, but that then takes away a significant portion of the same audience that is supposed to be this wider base for Battlefront there. It is pretty senseless to keep trying to convince BF that there is a major market for them untapped, when they are comfortable with their current market growth and business plan.  The current one works and is inherently risk free because they have already been doing it.  Steam represents an unknown and therefore potential risk.  It is also a certain amount of effort BF would have to expend beyond what they are doing introducing more angst and effort.  There really isn't from their view much of an upside if you start with, "the current model is working, why fix something that isn't broken?"

 

Trust someone like Valve who makes their business handling these kinds of transactions over the BFC store page which is the internet equivalent of a burnt out gas station?

 

Convenience? I have too many bloody accounts on the internet as it is, just counting games, not personal or professional. I don't want any more.

 

Value doesn't necessarily mean price. Being able to reinstall the game without begging for another activation being one that jumps out at me immediately.

[m0317624]

Plus IMHO "no steam no buy" attitude is a feature of really young gamers. I can't imagine a mature CM player who says that.

 

The comments of that RPS article would prove otherwise. In a quick glance I counted at least 5 different people who used to play CM titles (even the original CMx1 titles), who used to be Battlefront customers, and who are no longer because BF "is a trainwreck", "is run by dinosaurs", "has an atrocious webstore",... (their words). All claim they would gladly become customers again if BF went to Steam. Are you going to dismiss them as immature just because they disagree with you, as so many others have already tried in this thread?

[Jane's]

The comments of that RPS article would prove otherwise. In a quick glance I counted at least 5 different people who used to play CM titles (even the original CMx1 titles), who used to be Battlefront customers, and who are no longer because BF "is a trainwreck", "is run by dinosaurs", "has an atrocious webstore",... (their words). All claim they would gladly become customers again if BF went to Steam. Are you going to dismiss them as immature just because they disagree with you, as so many others have already tried in this thread?

The "immature" part was regarding age and not behaviour. I just find a bit strange that someone is freely choosing actually less freedom (this is how i see Steam). No harm or disrespect intended to anyone. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Jane's

[von Luck]

Like you, Jane's, different people have different priorities. To some people the convenience of having their games located on steam is very important for a variety of reasons.

von Luck