sell on Steam?

[Battlefront.com]

And the question is again asked, how could going to Steam in addition to your current setup possibly lead to lower sales? But you've ignored pretty much every other question or fact inconvenient for your argument so far, so I don't expect an actual answer to this one either.

Based on your previous posts you would neither understand nor accept the answers I give. You are absolutely convinced you know more than me already. Yet you have (as far as I can tell) zero experience to draw from. It puts me in a pretty tough position to have to prove myself despite my obvious achievements when you don't have to prove yourself at all in spite of zero achievements.

 

 

The hilarious part is that I remember Erik over at Matrix saying pretty much the exact same thing to dismiss Steam a few years ago.

What relevance does this have?

 

 

It was countered numerous times in this thread, but once again that was all completely ignored. As are the insults being thrown around by some of the Battlefront fanboys. Guess this forum's reputation for moderator favouritism is as well deserved as its reputation of aggressively attacking unpopular opinions. I can see why I was warned not to bother coming here.

You are arrogant, abusive, and completely disinterested in an intellectually balanced discussion so you get treated appropriately. Personally, I am glad we have a reputation that tends to discourage people like you posting. You have nothing to offer that has much value to this Forum.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

It's anecdotal evidence and not really worth addressing. Of the ~10 people I play strategy games with, 8 of them became Combat Mission players with the introduction of WEGO multiplayer, but I'm not going to claim that 80% of people exposed to it would play it, because that would be insane.

Sure, it's anecdotal. But that's about all we have to draw from when well established consumer purchasing histories are kicked to the curb by the Steam proponents. The simple fact is that the more intellectual power, patience, prolonged learning, and time are required for a product (ANY PRODUCT) the fewer people it appeals to.

I said it before... name me one hardcore wargame that's been a smash hit. Can't do it, can you? No. That's because there are none.

Wargames are niche. They always have been and they always will be. Hardcore wargames are niche within a niche. Always have been and they always will be. Lack of exposure has never been the reason for this and never will be. Therefore, any "solution" to hardcore wargaming appeal that starts with "all you need to do is get more people to see it" is not a productive path to tread.

I find it more than slightly puzzling that people are uncomfortable with this reality. I could have chosen VASTLY more lucrative work than making wargames. I got into this business knowing I was limiting my financial return on my time. I'm still here after all these years despite having plenty of opportunities to do something else. I understand the limitations of the choice I made. If I'm comfortable with that, why shouldn't our customers?

Steve

[Pelican Pal]

Except there are very easy ways to incentivize the current user base to continue purchasing directly from Battlefront, leading Battlefront's revenue to end up at $53.500 instead of a mere $50.000. (Steam's cut is well-known to be about 30%).

 

I calculated using a 30% cut.

 

You will lose a percentage of your customer base to Steam once your product is on Steam. I can't be helped. There are too many advantages that Steam has to make buying from BFC's webstore worthwhile.

[sburke]

lol, so you feel that if this thread didn't exist, he would roll in here and spill the beans on future projects? seriously?

Odds would certainly be better than they are with him wasting his time on people who only ever particate on this forum to push steam. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't but it couldn't hurt How does that pie thing work you guys like so much. Steve has x amount of time, he spends y amount responding to steamie-krishnas. The pie is now smaller, hey if it works for a Steam sales argument with even less validity, why the hell not.

[m0317624]

 

Based on your previous posts you would neither understand nor accept the answers I give. You are absolutely convinced you know more than me already. Yet you have (as far as I can tell) zero experience to draw from. It puts me in a pretty tough position to have to prove myself despite my obvious achievements when you don't have to prove yourself at all in spite of zero achievements.

 

Ah, yet another convenient excuse to dismiss the argument. I don't need to post my achievements here, as my arguments tend to revolve around more than simply saying "I've got years of experience, so I automatically know better than you". I've posted numerous examples of companies overcoming their Steam reluctance and profiting from it, they get dismissed and ignored. I've generally discussed possible low-risk avenues to test out the Steam waters, I get insulted for them. Nobody is demanding you to prove yourself, but if you mingle in a discussion you'll get called out if your argument is nothing more than "I'm automatically right simply because I say so, now everyone else shut up".

 

 

What relevance does this have?

 

The relevant part is that he was forced to eat those words when it proved exactly how much bull**** they really were, just like you'll probably have to do in a few years time.

 

 

You are arrogant, abusive, and completely disinterested in an intellectually balanced discussion so you get treated appropriately. Personally, I am glad we have a reputation that tends to discourage people like you posting. You have nothing to offer that has much value to this Forum.

 

I'd like to see some examples of that "intellectually balanced discussion'" you claim to want here, because you certainly are not providing it. The first page alone contains how many posts simply trying to shut down discussion based on the line "It's been asked before, the answer will eternally be no, so stop talking about it"? I have in his entire thread done nothing but present argument upon argument, doing my very best to ignore the people insulting me for it. And you are right, that does appear to be behaviour you are discouraging on these forums. If it's an echo chamber you want, just come out and say it openly.

 

Here's another tip for the clever businessman you think you are: it does not reflect well upon a company for its public face to get personally involved in a public discussion like this, no matter who else is involved or what is being said. It reflects even worse on them when the public face actively picks sides with his favourites and revels in them insulting newcomers. No matter how this thread ends, it's pretty obvious to anyone with even the slightest PR experience that it has cost your company money and maybe even customers.

Edited January 6, 2015 by m0317624

[Battlefront.com]

Ah, yet another convenient excuse to dismiss the argument. I don't need to post my achievements here, as my arguments tend to revolve around more than simply saying "I've got years of experience, so I automatically know better than you". I've posted numerous examples of companies overcoming their Steam reluctance and profiting from it, they get dismissed and ignored. I've generally discussed possible low-risk avenues to test out the Steam waters, I get insulted for them. Nobody is demanding you to prove yourself, but if you mingle in a discussion you'll get called out if your argument is nothing more than "I'm automatically right simply because I say so, now everyone else shut up".

You conveniently skip over the part of me explaining, in some detail, why the positions you are pushing are either irrelevant, incomplete, misinformed, of simply not applicable. This is where we get into the part about you being so utterly convinced that you know better than we do how to run our company.

 

 

The relevant part is that he was forced to eat those words when it proved exactly how much bullshit they really were, just like you'll probably have to do in a few years time.

Our critics have had to eat more words than we have over these many years. Far more. But I don't suppose you'll entertain the possibility that you're wrong?

 

 

I'd like to see some examples of that "intellectually balanced discussion'" you claim to want here, because you certainly are not providing it.

Then you have a different interpretation of "intellectually balanced discussion". It appears that you view such a discussion as you hammering the same point over and over and over again, not taking anything else into consideration, and then being overtly abusive. Each to his own, but I don't agree with your view.

 

The first page alone contains how many posts simply trying to shut down discussion based on the line "It's been asked before, the answer will eternally be no, so stop talking about it"?

It has all been discussed (to death) before. The pro-Steam folks, such as yourself, have not brought anything new to the table. So why should anybody expect a different result when the track record is so clear and, thanks in part to your posts, reinforced yet again?

 

Here's another tip for the clever businessman you think you are: it does not reflect well upon a company for its public face to get personally involved in a public discussion like this, no matter who else is involved or what is being said. It reflects even worse on them when the public face actively picks sides with his favourites and revels in them insulting newcomers. No matter how this thread ends, it's pretty obvious to anyone with even the slightest PR experience that it has cost your company money and maybe even customers.

I've had people, just like you, tell me that for 17 years now. I think we're doing fine without you telling us, yet again, that you are so much smarter than we are.

Steve

[sburke]

I'd like to see some examples of that "intellectually balanced discussion'" you claim to want here, because you certainly are not providing it. The first page alone contains how many posts simply trying to shut down discussion based on the line "It's been asked before, the answer will eternally be no, so stop talking about it"? I have in his entire thread done nothing but present argument upon argument, doing my very best to ignore the people insulting me for it. And you are right, that does appear to be behaviour you are discouraging on these forums. If it's an echo chamber you want, just come out and say it openly.

 

Here's another tip for the clever businessman you think you are: it does not reflect well upon a company for its public face to get personally involved in a public discussion like this, no matter who else is involved or what is being said. It reflects even worse on them when the public face actively picks sides with his favourites and revels in them insulting newcomers. No matter how this thread ends, it's pretty obvious to anyone with even the slightest PR experience that it has cost your company money and maybe even customers.

Let's see you are the guy who tossed out fanboy, you are one of the people who wanted Steve here and wanted those of us not sold on your argument to not participate. See here is the thing, the thread is there. We can all read it, we can all see what you have said versus what you are trying to claim now and we all pretty much know BS when we see it. You have not been subjected to any more insulting language than you have dished out and continue to use. The martyr robes do not fit you well

We also have the previous thread to see exactly how this went six months ago. The OP has not been insulted, I have even gone so far as to make sure he understood my frustration had nothing to do with his original post, but rather with the continued obstinacy of those who think they know BFs business better than Steve does. You guys despite repeated requests have provided nothing but supposition period. Repetition is not an argument, well not an adult argument anyway. You guys have dismissed every attempt I have made to work with you to quantify what you claim is a large untapped market and you guys simply dismissed that as irrelevant.

When I want good lumber to build something for my house I don't go to the big box store. It is just a hodge podge of crap I have to sort through and hopefully find something decent. Instead I go to a specialty lumber store and Lo and behold they have what I want. If I want a war game, I go to war gamer sites. If I go to steam I get bombarded with sales crap of their top sellers. Finding even command modern naval air I have to be looking for a war game. I'd have been better off googling and finding matrix itself.

[Stagler]

I said it before... name me one hardcore wargame that's been a smash hit. Can't do it, can you? No. That's because there are none.

 

 

Wargame european escalation.... three years ago.

 

Its only gotten diluted in the past two iterations of the game.

[sburke]

Wargame european escalation.... three years ago.

 

Its only gotten diluted in the past two iterations of the game.

Smash hit? Can you define that cause even I didn't buy that one.

[Stagler]

Smash hit? Can you define that cause even I didn't buy that one.

 

 

"We have released Wargame: European Escalation in February 2012 with Focus Home Interactive.

Acclaimed by the press (81% Metacritics), Wargame: European Escalation is a real-time strategy game on PC, that maintains the two core values of the classic wargame (depth and reflection) while offering a dynamic, real-time gameplay, and an incredibly spectacular and realistic visual experience.

The Wargame franchise has sold more than 800 000 copies."

[BlackAlpha]

 

Smash hit? Can you define that cause even I didn't buy that one.

 

That's your loss.

 

It has over a thousand reviews on Steam with a rating over 80%, that makes it a pretty big success. No Call of Duty level of success, obviously, but still it used to be pretty popular. No idea how many copies they sold, but since then they created 2 more games in the series and I'm fairly sure they got a lot more people on the payroll than Battlefront does.

 

 

 

The Wargame franchise has sold more than 800 000 copies."

 

 

To be fair, though. The second and third game in that series were a lot more arcade (but not less complex) and hence even more successful. So that number is not entirely accurate if we are talking strictly about the more hardcore European Escalation.

Edited January 6, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[Battlefront.com]

Wargame european escalation.... three years ago.

 

Its only gotten diluted in the past two iterations of the game.

I think we have different definitions of what a "hardcore wargame" is. That game is in the RTS category, which is not the same thing. RTS games have an inherently broader audience than wargames do. Good RTS games often appeal to wargamers (I like 'em!), but it doesn't work the same in reverse.

If we wanted to tap into the RTS market in any significant way we'd have to come up with an entirely different game than Combat Mission. CM violates almost all of the tenants of successful RTS games except that it can be played in realtime.

Steve

[Stagler]

 

 

To be fair, though. The second and third game in that series were a lot more arcade (and hence even more successful). So that number is not entirely accurate if we are talking strictly about the more hardcore European Escalation.

 

 

yeah I did say that the past two had got ****.

 

It may be in the RTS category on steam but it is squarely a wargame for me.

 

Morale, spotting, suppression, force structure, realistic representation of platforms.

 

The only thing I can think of which may be a category for some is that it cannot be played turn based.

[sburke]

"We have released Wargame: European Escalation in February 2012 with Focus Home Interactive.

Acclaimed by the press (81% Metacritics), Wargame: European Escalation is a real-time strategy game on PC, that maintains the two core values of the classic wargame (depth and reflection) while offering a dynamic, real-time gameplay, and an incredibly spectacular and realistic visual experience.

The Wargame franchise has sold more than 800 000 copies."

It is a decent example and certainly a figure I think BF wouldn't mind seeing, but in comparison Skyrim sold 3.5 million in it's first 48 hours

Black alpha, I am not a big fan of RTS games. Heck if CM was rt only I doubt I would play it anywhere near as much as I do. That is just my thing, for other folks that isn't an issue. Anything that is limited to RTS or single player only pretty much means I would struggle to purchase it.

[Baneman]

"...a real-time strategy game on PC,...

 

And with those words, it left the "hardcore wargames room".

 

Edit: Damn ! double ninja'd.  Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough !

Edited January 6, 2015 by Baneman

[BlackAlpha]

I think we have different definitions of what a "hardcore wargame" is. That game is in the RTS category, which is not the same thing. RTS games have an inherently broader audience than wargames do. Good RTS games often appeal to wargamers (I like 'em!), but it doesn't work the same in reverse.

If we wanted to tap into the RTS market in any significant way we'd have to come up with an entirely different game than Combat Mission. CM violates almost all of the tenants of successful RTS games except that it can be played in realtime.

Steve

 

It's called RTS to appeal to a wider audience, but it's too complex for the majority of people - it's not a mainstream RTS. I'd still fit it in the wargame category. At the very least, it has as much right to be called a Wargame as the majority of beer and pretzel wargames, but it's still more complex than said wargames.

[Doug Williams]

I have the impression that there is some steam marketing nerd pushing an agenda in this forum.

 

Yes, and his name is m0317624. Jeez, Steam. Hire someone who can pick better forum names. ;-)

 

 

Well, even if he's not a Steam employee, it's interesting to watch him try to "educate" Steve.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Doug Williams

[Stagler]

Some proper tinfoil hattery here. Steam employees, haha, christ.

[sburke]

We are kind of diverging here on definitions, but heck they do help focus the discussion. I'd consider European escalation to be a war game in the same sense I would consider command and conquer to be a war game (albeit from what I can see European escalation being far more detailed). The difference for me is when I start hearing things like "unlocking units". That is where I start drawing a line between hardcore war game and wider community wargame.

Edited January 6, 2015 by sburke

[Baneman]

... as my arguments tend to revolve around more than simply saying "I've got years of experience, so I automatically know better than you".

 

Actually he didn't say he automatically knew better than you ( although that suspicion IS beginning to form ), he really said that he has years of experience and he's seen the numbers ( real actual facts ) and they don't add up for BFC.

 

I still don't see how "but if you'd just try it" trumps that.

 

Plus, you keep harping on about being insulted - ok Mord got a little carried away after about 6 pages, but otherwise people have been remarkably restrained.

 

The first page alone contains how many posts simply trying to shut down discussion based on the line "It's been asked before, the answer will eternally be no, so stop talking about it"?

And were they not correct ?

The reasons have been given (again) and the answer is still no.

And in fact it has never been said that the answer will eternally be no, just that the business reasons have to change for the better and that's down to Steam, not BFC.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Baneman

[BlackAlpha]

Black alpha, I am not a big fan of RTS games. Heck if CM was rt only I doubt I would play it anywhere near as much as I do. That is just my thing, for other folks that isn't an issue. Anything that is limited to RTS or single player only pretty much means I would struggle to purchase it.

 

It's basically a faster paced version of Combat Mission. So, if that's the sort of thing you think you would enjoy, it's worth checking it out (I'd recommend the latest version, Red Dragon). Personally, I had a lot of fun playing it with friends in multiplayer (against AI and other people). I wouldn't recommend it for singleplayer.

 

 

 

We are kind of diverging here on definitions, but heck they do help focus the discussion. I'd consider European escalation to be a war game in the same sense I would consider command and conquer to be a war game (albeit from what I can see European escalation being far more detailed). The difference for me is when I start hearing things like "unlocking units". That is where I start drawing a line between hardcore war game and wider community wargame.

 

 

Comparing the Wargame series to C&C, ouch... That's below the belt.

 

No, I wouldn't say that. Imagine speeding up Combat Mission by times 5, making infantry more abstract, and playing on much larger maps. That's what the Wargame series is like.

Edited January 6, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[Doug Williams]

Some proper tinfoil hattery here. Steam employees, haha, christ.

 

Didn't notice the "winky" in my post, eh?

 

Obviously no Steam employee. They wouldn't have been that obnoxious.

[sburke]

Ouch... No, I wouldn't say that. Imagine speeding up Combat Mission by times 5, making infantry more abstract, and playing on much larger maps. That's what the Wargame series is like.

Thanks, who knows but that infantry aspect would likely kill it for me. If anyone hasn't noticed from my AAR posts, the infantry aspect of CM is where I spend most of my time. However that has nothing to do with definitions regarding the genre, it is just an aspect that makes CM special for me.

Oh and sorry for the C&C reference. I was struggling to come up with an example. I admit that is a really poor one.

Edited January 6, 2015 by sburke

[umlaut]

"One more time, Herr Hauptmann! Maybe it is just sleeping."

 

horse

[Battlefront.com]

It may be in the RTS category on steam but it is squarely a wargame for me.

 

Morale, spotting, suppression, force structure, realistic representation of platforms.

 

The only thing I can think of which may be a category for some is that it cannot be played turn based.

Not having played Wargame, I'm sure it's not as simple as that. RTS is a specific genre not because some marketing hack puts an "RTS" sticker on it, but rather from core features which set it apart from other games. From a game design standpoint those features require doing some things that wargames don't, and don't doing some things which wargames do. The list is even longer if we're talking about a "hardcore wargame".

From what I can tell Wargame is a pretty slick and well executed Beer & Pretzels type wargame with some clever ways of introducing traditional wargame concepts which are usually utterly abandoned by other B&P type games. And though not a "smash hit" by game industry standards, it would be for someone like us.

Nearly 20 years ago (ugh!) the threshold for a "hit" at the company I worked for was about 1,000,000 lifetime sales for a single release. By that measurement, Wargame would have fallen well short (40%?) of that standard for its initial release. I don't know what mainstream companies view as a "hit" these days, but for sure it's a lot more than 1,000,000 lifetime sales. Which means that I don't think Wargame can be considered a "smash hit" by industry standards.

By wargame standards, however, 400,000 sales is impressive. Still far short of what Panzer General did in terms of actual numbers 23 years ago, but still very impressive. I certainly would love to have that many sales, though only if the return on investment was reasonable. What I mean by that is Wargame cost a LOT more to make than Combat Mission and their per unit sales gross revenue is considerably lower.

So as far as I'm concerned, nobody has shown me a game that indicates that there's a broader market on Steam that Combat Mission is missing out on. If we had a game aimed at the RTS crowd, as Wargame is, then I bet we would do a lot better with sales if we were on Steam.

Steve