Two questions about spotting

[Thompson]

Started playing the German campaign in CMBN yesterday (Panzer Marsch or somefink) and stumbled on two spotting issues on the first battle that puzzled me.

1. Does hiding or crawling hinder spotting?

On the first battle of that campaign, the night scouting mission (kudos to the designer, btw, a splendid idea this!), none of my scout teams spotted anything or did just seconds before getting their heads blown off. Tried a few different tactics, always on foot (not rumbling around with the armored cars), crawling or hunting, stopping at times to "take a longer look", hiding and not hiding in place, but never did the poor sods spot anything. Not even if sitting on the other side of the road from the Amis. Granted, both parties were behind hedgerows, but the second I let one team take a peak from an opening in the hedges, they got themselves killed (or pinned and then, after about 2 seconds, killed). I cannot for the life of me figure out how I should have scouted their positions, so that the scouts would have survived the ordeal.

2. Does covered arc hinder spotting outside the arc?

I had my scout teams set to a circular 20 meter covered arc to keep them from opening fire on enemies to be spotted at a distance (he said hopefully). I removed the covered arc once I got suspicious, as the scouts didn't spot anything, even in places I was fairly sure had enemies very close by (which was confirmed later several times by getting shot by them). It didn't seem to make any difference, but I thought to ask anyway.

[Pak40]

1. Yes indeed.

2. No. The unit will face the general area that you set the arc, but other than that they should spot normally(unless you also set a hide order).

[Erwin]

From Steve in another thread:

"I think the spotting bonus aspect is getting people off track here. Yes, there is a bonus. But far more factors go into whether you spot something fast, or at all, than Cover Arc. As I said, put your unit in a good position and Face it in the direction you want to observe. If it's an armored vehicle, unbutton it. An unbuttoned vehicle without a CA will outspot a buttoned one with CA. A unit with only 20m of view in front of it will likely spot just as quickly with CA or without CA. A unit at night is likely to spot crappy either way. A unit that has a naturally narrowed field of vision (street fighting, for example) will likely spot just as well as a unit with the same narrow field of vision using a CA.

Which is why I advised above... do not use CAs to get some sort of spotting speed increase. It is not what the Command is designed for and if you don't want to limit your engagement area you could be very unhappy with the results.

Should we include a "Spotting Covered Arc" Command? In theory, we could add that and a couple dozen other Commands that micro manage the Hell out of your unit's behavior. But we're not going to do that because that would not be a good idea."

You may have to leave the unit (not hiding) just looking for a few minutes before they spot things - esp at night.

[Wodin]

I really don't think the game does scouting well...very very rarely does it work..normally you find out where the enemy is once you hear your pixeltruppen scream.

Whenever a mission or campign gives me scouts to start off with I think..oh god why...there pretty damn useless...I'd rather a mission start once after the scouting has been done and you have a few contact markers up...

Even in CMSF is was difficult and they have loads of tech.

The main problem with scout cars is turning corners etc..you want the car to shoot off if spotted or drive quickly around possible sights and see if they draw fire..but even when you give countless waypoints to turn one corner (which means the turn becomes way bigger than it would be in real life) you never know if the damn thing will stop and turn instead of going full pelt. This makes them sitting ducks and trying to tempt fire usually means they are dead.

Oh I don't use arcs for spotting I give a face comand inthe rough direction I want them looking.

[c3k]

It's hard to spot stationary enemy hiding at night. (Not "HIDING", just sitting still waiting in ambush.) It can take several minutes.

[YankeeDog]

Even in daytime, there can be considerable value to sitting still for a bit and waiting to see what can be seen. If there is an enemy in good concealment (like behind bocage), and your units are observing from more than 100m away, you may start to get a "?" contact only after a minute or more of observation.

[womble]

I really don't think the game does scouting well...very very rarely does it work..normally you find out where the enemy is once you hear your pixeltruppen scream.

I have to disagree. I've played a number of scenarios/QBs where careful scouting has given me a fine appreciation of enemy dispositions and given me the opportunity to set up devastating attacks.

The main problem with scout cars...

Ah, now there you have a point. Scouting vehicles are not often useful for scouting the CM battlefield unless you're using them as a 'go over there til you blow up' type of scout. I believe this is realistic, on the scale of the game. ACs and scout cars are more strategic assets and if they appear in a scenario should, in my book, be used carefully as fragile MG platforms. Your footsloggers do the scouting, as people have said, slowly and with lots of sitting still. Often there doesn't seem to be the time to do things properly, but time spent on reconnaisance can speed your actual assault significantly.

[winkelried]

I really don't think the game does scouting well...very very rarely does it work..normally you find out where the enemy is once you hear your pixeltruppen scream.

sorry to disagree. scouting is a process that takes a lot of time - especially at night. i was in this business as SF recon for 15 years (even before we got these nice tech toys like night goggles). a well concealed position can only be identified when something moves. if you have well trained and disciplined troops and no change of watch or somebody bringing food etc you can stay hidden for ages. if the guys don't stumble over you or you over them (depending on the role you have) there is no way to identify a good position - especially at night (remember a story where our point man fell over an enemy machine gun - to everybodys surprise).

so what you need on the recon side is time and time. or then you have to go to armed recon - usually done by the cavalry scouts or the like. get a good position and open fire and see if somebody returns fire and from where. or drive up with your AC and wait until somebody fires at you.

[winkelried]

Ah, now there you have a point. Scouting vehicles are not often useful for scouting the CM battlefield unless you're using them as a 'go over there til you blow up' type of scout.

There is a story from Panzer Meyer i believe (could also be Peiper) where he drives through a soviet roadblock with his Sd.Kfz. 222 in 1941 - and is able to disable the 45mm ATG because of the surprise on the soviet side. you need a lot of luck as a scout to survive

[winkelried]

The main problem with scout cars is turning corners etc..you want the car to shoot off if spotted or drive quickly around possible sights and see if they draw fire..but even when you give countless waypoints to turn one corner (which means the turn becomes way bigger than it would be in real life) you never know if the damn thing will stop and turn instead of going full pelt. This makes them sitting ducks and trying to tempt fire usually means they are dead.

if you have smoke that may help. usually ACs move in pairs. one advancing, the other providing cover.

[wolf66]

So the OP is a liar or a very bad player ?? I don't think so ..... I had my scouts "scouting" for minutes without spotting anything and the enemy has been sitting just across the bocage ..... not really a great gaming experience having "scouting missions" like that ......

[Pak40]

I really don't think the game does scouting well...very very rarely does it work..normally you find out where the enemy is once you hear your pixeltruppen scream.

That's pretty much how it works in real life. If the enemy knows your're coming, and they usually do, then you wont know where they are until shots are fired. Scouts are expendable, always have been. Their sole purpose is to draw fire and if possible spot the enemy.

I do agree though, that sometimes, even after your scouts have been fired upon and having other units in overwatch, enemy positions are not revealed - not even with ?. This doubly goes for night time battles where muzzle flashes should be dead giveaways.

[sburke]

I am actually finding the recon phase to be getting more and more interesting the more I play. Both my opponents are very patient and spend quite a bit of time trying to collect information prior to attacking. I am both learning how to conduct recon from their game play as well as how to try and counter it.

Not sure what tactics various people are doing, but you don't have to concede your opponent the advantage in spotting simply because they are on the defense. Concealed approaches through cover and use of smoke can allow you to get closer before they have spotting opportunities on you. Judicious use of mortars and MGs can force some movement to enhance your spotting opportunites and at a minimum may force them to cower reducing their spotting capabilities.

The game has a LOT of tools, your success is largely in learning how to integrate and use them.

The tension of seeing who can win the recon battle has become for me a much more intense cat and mouse game than the battle once it is joined. I would certainly not characterize it as easy, but I seem to learn something new every game I play and can't wait for an opportunity to employ it. The other thing that can make a huge difference is the map itself and the environmental conditions. Just keep in mind trying to sneak up in and of itself isn't gonna cut it. You need to also disrupt your opponents plans and focus.

[Battlefront.com]

Recon is one of the most difficult things to do in warfare, so if it were "easy" to do in CM then we'd have it poorly modeled. As it is, I think we have it modeled fairly well

In real life a lot of recon was done over a period of hours. A recon element would get to a decent place of observation, but not one where they thought the enemy might see them first. Then they sit there... and sit there... and sit there... and sit there hoping to catch sight or sound of the enemy moving. If nothing is seen after a long time, then relocate and try again.

This is just not something most people have the time or patience for within a CM game. My advice is to try the real world method but speed it up slightly. I suggest this will work because the defending side is often moving around, so it won't usually take hours to spot them

Scout vehicles are indeed dead meat if used incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean going down one of 2 or 3 roads on the map at top speed Short movements at slow or modest speeds is best. Combine this with good covering terrain and you should do OK. If you get shot at you have a better chance of withdrawing effectively.

Another mistake people make is they insist on using their recon elements to fight once contact has been made. This is not the primary role of Recon, though the German concept of "fighting for information" is valid and was employed by both the US and Commonwealth to some degree during the war. It became the primary doctrine for US forces after the war until very, very recently. What I mean to say here is fight only if you know what you're getting yourself into. If you don't know what you're fighting, then withdraw and observe or withdraw and probe somewhere else. OF COURSE a bunch of armored cars are going to get slaughtered if you press on and find out there are AT Guns or tanks waiting for you. Shouldn't be any other way.

Just some tips

Steve

[winkelried]

So the OP is a liar or a very bad player ?? I don't think so ..... I had my scouts "scouting" for minutes without spotting anything and the enemy has been sitting just across the bocage ..... not really a great gaming experience having "scouting missions" like that ......

As long as the enemy doesn't move you will not spot them - that's a fact.

the battle is about sitting in the OPs without taking losses.

but you can also get some more info about the U.S. - at some risk. see attachment for details (darts are for lines of fire). My approach: i dismount two 250s completely and use the two crews as OPs (OP1 and OP2) i use one 232 and one 250 to provide supressive fire against the bocage. the XO and one patrol then move up the road (under cover of another 232 and 250 which are supressing - just in case). then they form a T XO can fire on the long side of the bocage and patrol through the bocage. the XO watches and sees the foxholes and finally the troops. XO and Scout team zap them. The next U.S. team opens fire from the other side of the open area (to the right - not visible) XO and scout zap them too.

etc.etc.

[winkelried]

Recon is one of the most difficult things to do in warfare, so if it were "easy" to do in CM then we'd have it poorly modeled. As it is, I think we have it modeled fairly well

it is modelled well.

In real life a lot of recon was done over a period of hours. A recon element would get to a decent place of observation, but not one where they thought the enemy might see them first. Then they sit there... and sit there... and sit there... and sit there hoping to catch sight or sound of the enemy moving. If nothing is seen after a long time, then relocate and try again.

Yes indeed - my record is two weeks in the same OP. without leaving, without a fire, very improvised toilets - hot days, cold nights. nothing to be seen from the outside until the enemy column finally moves into the field of vision ... and then ...

This is just not something most people have the time or patience for within a CM game. My advice is to try the real world method but speed it up slightly. I suggest this will work because the defending side is often moving around, so it won't usually take hours to spot them

Best time is the morning - if the troops are not well trained and disciplined they will go for a pee.

Scout vehicles are indeed dead meat if used incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean going down one of 2 or 3 roads on the map at top speed Short movements at slow or modest speeds is best. Combine this with good covering terrain and you should do OK. If you get shot at you have a better chance of withdrawing effectively.

Another mistake people make is they insist on using their recon elements to fight once contact has been made. This is not the primary role of Recon, though the German concept of "fighting for information" is valid and was employed by both the US and Commonwealth to some degree during the war.

But then you would use armor/heavy AC and panzergrenadiers to do so. That's why the German Panzeraufklärungsabteilung sometimes had a armored company (panzergrenadier) and the heavy ACs.

[Thompson]

Thanks for the tips, all.

I was doing my recon pretty much like you guys advice, but maybe was a bit too hasty. However, you only have 50 minutes to complete the mission and I used half of that just getting to those four observation posts (was moving very cautiously). So, I didn't have that much time to spend, in order to make it back to the exit zone in time. All in all, it went OK, I only lost 2 guys to a bit of overeager probing, saw a glipse of an AT gun (but didn't ID it nor get points for it), spotted some foxholes but not the Amis occupying them and firing at me, made it back in good order and got a Tactical Victory. Good enough. I doubt my pixel soldiers would have spotted anything more had they sat at their OPs a bit longer (night, hedgerows, etc, being the case), at least not well enough to score more intel/Victory Points.

Recon is one of the most difficult things to do in warfare, so if it were "easy" to do in CM then we'd have it poorly modeled.

Oh, I didn't mean it ought to be easy (or easier). It's just fine as it is. I was just wondering about how spotting works in those situations I mentioned above and if I had been doing my recon all wrong. Glad to know I wasn't (for the most part).

Quick follow-up question (not about spotting, though): Are exit zones for only one unit at a time or can there be several exiting at once (if they fit there)?

[winkelried]

Quick follow-up question (not about spotting, though): Are exit zones for only one unit at a time or can there be several exiting at once (if they fit there)?

several - if they fit.

[GreenAsJade]

I am actually finding the recon phase to be getting more and more interesting the more I play. Both my opponents are very patient and spend quite a bit of time trying to collect information prior to attacking. I am both learning how to conduct recon from their game play as well as how to try and counter it.

Yeah - me too, exactly this.

In fact, I think that this is why this whole spotting thing is coming up: as collectively people realise that this is something you need to sort out and do well...

GaJ

[Pak40]

Thanks for the tips, all.

Oh, I didn't mean it ought to be easy (or easier). It's just fine as it is. I was just wondering about how spotting works in those situations I mentioned above and if I had been doing my recon all wrong. Glad to know I wasn't (for the most part).

Quick follow-up question (not about spotting, though): Are exit zones for only one unit at a time or can there be several exiting at once (if they fit there)?

Thompson, I think he was responding to Wodin's comment.

You can exit more than 1 unit at a time. They will disappear after a few seconds so that you can move more units into the exit area.

[winkelried]

Thompson, I think he was responding to Wodin's comment.

most of us were i assume.

[Erwin]

For what it's worth I have found the best strategy for all CM2 games since CMSF came out has been to spend the first 50%+ of the game sneaking around ("recon") to find where the enemy is and then using arty first wherever possible to KO his most threatening units. In CMSF these were the long range ATGM's, in CMBN, they are the ATG's (and to some degree his armor).

Once those units were neutralized, the rest of the scenario is/was usually easy.

If you want to do fast moving armor assaults and maneuver tactics, those work better/are more fun in CM1.

[Wodin]

I agree it's modeled well in game...but we don't have hours to sit and wait and watch etc...thats why I wish recon was already done in scenarios to a point...not fully but enough for a little help.

Also in this particular scenario it's a surprise attack...so recon with Pumas for 5 mins before my attacking forces even get on the map and then have to move into posistion...and if spotted is it still a surprise attack?

Anyway I have to say what they are good at is telling you when the coast is clear rather than spotting the enemy first. I started playing this scenario and due to the scouting I knew I could travel a fair way upto my assault jumping off point with out encountering the enemy.

In the end though the game models it so realistically that at times I feel there isn't enough time to do it effectively.

[winkelried]

For what it's worth I have found the best strategy for all CM2 games since CMSF came out has been to spend the first 50%+ of the game sneaking around ("recon") to find where the enemy is and then using arty first wherever possible to KO his most threatening units. In CMSF these were the long range ATGM's, in CMBN, they are the ATG's (and to some degree his armor).

Once those units were neutralized, the rest of the scenario is/was usually easy.

If you want to do fast moving armor assaults and maneuver tactics, those work better/are more fun in CM1.

depends a bit on the situation. at night i prefer to keep my squads together to get immediate fire superiority.

artillery and mortars are very important. in QBs i often buy trps. they are usually worth the money (no spotting).

i use armor usually as a fist - closely together with high fire density. can also be riski whenever you have an atg in front of you. smoke is also a very nice feature when you can't fight the enemy directly (e.g. with an m4 against a panther),

[Erwin]

I agree that night battles are a different sort of animal. However, I still use the same technique. I much prefer to have 2 recon guys go down at night rather than half my platoon cos the whole lot of them stumble into a trap.

One of my favorite tricks in defense was to have a light screen to figure out the enemy approach and then have a large nasty ambush force waiting. So long as they fired first, the attacker was mincemeat. Then retreat before the numerically superior attacker could mass more troops. Rinse and repeat.