C2 issues when HQ's KIA

[Erwin]

Several times I have had platoon HQ's wiped out. I thought that the XO or Company HQ could take over if close enough but they never get a "green C2 light", visual or auditory command symbol- even when right amidst the leaderless platoon in question.

So, is there any way to get a senior commander to take over when a subordinate HQ is KIA?

If not, it seems like an odd design decision. What is the purpose of all those Co HQ's, XO's, 2IC's and HQ support units? (I'd much prefer to get rid of most of the various HQ units and get medics instead as medics are needed ALL the time.)

[Lt. Smash]

I couldn't agree more. It appears that once you're direct HQ gets killed then you loose all command support. Not my favorite design decision.

Bob

[YankeeDog]

[F'n double post]

[YankeeDog]

Hmmm.... I appears that there's some sort of inconsistency here, because this does not jibe with my recent play experiences.

I just finished playing through Closing the Pocket from the German side (having originally played it from the American side). Early in the fight, one of my platoon commanders was KO'd by an (un)lucky encounter with bullet that I actually don't think was aimed at him at all - he just happened to be in the wrong spot downrange.

This immediately put the entire platoon out of C2, and it stayed out of command for 3-4 minutes (no visual or auditory command symbols at all for any of the squads), even though the rest of the Plt. HQ unit (a radioman and a generic soldier) were OK. I don't know German command protocol as well as American, but I would think whomever is the equivalent to the Plt. Sargent in the German command structure would take over command the platoon eventually... but this is rather a different subject.

Anyway, while no one within the platoon stepped up to take command, eventually I was able to move the Company HQ up to the platoon, and as soon as I did this, the squads showed both visual and auditory command connections to the Company HQ.

I have these turns saved and just double-checked them, and the above description is definitely accurate to what happened.

So, based on this incident, it appears that at least under some conditions you can take command of a leaderless platoon with a more senior-level HQ unit. If it is the case that you can do this under some conditions, but not others, I have no idea what the specifics are.

Regards,

YD

[MikeyD]

Its not really in the sim's interest to make life too 'easy' for you. If you were careless enough to get your higher HQ killed off then there should be some penalty applied. By the same token, if you manage to locate and eliminate enemy HQ units you should get a gameplay reward for your good fortune. Chop the head off the snake, and all that.

[stikkypixie]

Hmmm.... I appears that there's some sort of inconsistency here, because this does not jibe with my recent play experiences.

I just finished playing through Closing the Pocket from the German side (having originally played it from the American side). Early in the fight, one of my platoon commanders was KO'd by an (un)lucky encounter with bullet that I actually don't think was aimed at him at all - he just happened to be in the wrong spot downrange.

This immediately put the entire platoon out of C2, and it stayed out of command for 3-4 minutes (no visual or auditory command symbols at all for any of the squads), even though the rest of the Plt. HQ unit (a radioman and a generic soldier) were OK. I don't know German command protocol as well as American, but I would think whomever is the equivalent to the Plt. Sargent in the German command structure would take over command the platoon eventually... but this is rather a different subject.

Anyway, while no one within the platoon stepped up to take command, eventually I was able to move the Company HQ up to the platoon, and as soon as I did this, the squads showed both visual and auditory command connections to the Company HQ.

I have these turns saved and just double-checked them, and the above description is definitely accurate to what happened.

So, based on this incident, it appears that at least under some conditions you can take command of a leaderless platoon with a more senior-level HQ unit. If it is the case that you can do this under some conditions, but not others, I have no idea what the specifics are.

Regards,

YD

Page 97 of the manual says that higher HQs can only make voice and close visual C2. Did any of the out of contact squads had a soldier with a "commander" tag?

[YankeeDog]

Page 97 of the manual says that higher HQs can only make voice and close visual C2. Did any of the out of contact squads had a soldier with a "commander" tag?

Nope; no soldier with a "commander" tag.

It is possible that the Coy HQ was unable to establish distant visual command -- once I got him up to the platoon's location, I mostly had him close enough to the squads to maintain voice and/or close visual contact, so I couldn't really say.

[stikkypixie]

Nope; no soldier with a "commander" tag.

It is possible that the Coy HQ was unable to establish distant visual command -- once I got him up to the platoon's location, I mostly had him close enough to the squads to maintain voice and/or close visual contact, so I couldn't really say.

Apparently higher HQs are not allowed distant visual.

[akd]

The green lights / red Xs in the lower left always show the normal chain of command. Also remember it is a chain, not a tree, from the currently selected unit (each light next to the unit text represents the link from that level to the next higher HQ). In the case of temporary command by a higher HQ in a formation, the command chain display will not change. The only indicator will be the close voice/visual icons displaying on the selected unit, despite a bad link in the chain to the unit's own immediate superior HQ.

Only a higher HQ (XOs are not HQs) from the out-of-command unit's own chain of command can provide temporary command. The HQ must be within close visual/voice range.

[womble]

The green lights / red Xs in the lower left always show the normal chain of command. Also remember it is a chain, not a tree, from the currently selected unit (each light next to the unit text represents the link from that level to the next higher HQ). In the case of temporary command by a higher HQ in a formation, the command chain display will not change. The only indicator will be the close voice/visual icons displaying on the selected unit, despite a bad link in the chain to the unit's own immediate superior HQ.

Only a higher HQ (XOs are not HQs) from the out-of-command unit's own chain of command can provide temporary command. The HQ must be within close visual/voice range.

This. It's true. I've seen it happen. The range is restricted. It can take a couple of minutes for command to be transferred, but I've just had, in my last game, the company XO supply C2 to one of the company's platoons that lost its looie. I just kept the Coy 'flag' unit (that used to contain the HQ) in the same or adjacent Action Spot as the XO unit and the platoon elements showed the appropriate 'voice' and 'sight' C2 indicators as if they were at the relevant range to their original HQ. First time I've had an XO unit be that useful in a C2 role.

[Erwin]

I had a company HQ in the middle of the leaderless platoon and no green buttons - even though he would have auditory, visual contact. He could have spat at them. Does one have to leave the CO HQ there for several minutes??

Note that the leaderless platoon also had no platoon HQ leader in the NEXT battle of the campaign either!

It's all very well saying the system has no interest in making things easy for players, but "realistically" wasn't there a protocol for replacing KIA leaders? Especially between battles.

[YankeeDog]

I had a company HQ in the middle of the leaderless platoon and no green buttons - even though he would have auditory, visual contact. He could have spat at them. Does one have to leave the CO HQ there for several minutes??

Well, that's odd. In my case, it took me 3-4 minutes to move the Coy HQ to the area of the leaderless platoon. He was able to assume command of the squads via close visual and auditory contact immediately when he got there, though. So if there is some sort of transitional time delay, it was over by the time my Coy HQ got in contact with the leaderless squads.

Just to double check -- you're sure that in your case, the Coy HQ was the parent HQ for that specific platoon?

Note that the leaderless platoon also had no platoon HQ leader in the NEXT battle of the campaign either!

It's all very well saying the system has no interest in making things easy for players, but "realistically" wasn't there a protocol for replacing KIA leaders? Especially between battles.

Hmmmm... yeah. If it's true that there's no system in the game for reconstituting HQs between battles, then this is a more significant issue. I can see how losing the commanding officer of the platoon might throw the platoon into disarray for the short term, but casualty rates among 1st and 2dn Lieutenants were very high, and U.S. Army in WWII (and I assume the Germans as well) had a specific protocol for who should assume command of a platoon in the event of a commander being lost. If not *during* a battle, some sort of battlefield promotion should definitely happen between battles. Perhaps the new Plt commander should usually have a lower experience and/or leader rating, but there should definitely be one.

[akd]

I had a company HQ in the middle of the leaderless platoon and no green buttons - even though he would have auditory, visual contact. He could have spat at them. Does one have to leave the CO HQ there for several minutes??

From above:

The green lights / red Xs in the lower left always show the normal chain of command. Also remember it is a chain, not a tree, from the currently selected unit (each light next to the unit text represents the link from that level to the next higher HQ). In the case of temporary command by a higher HQ in a formation, the command chain display will not change. The only indicator will be the close voice/visual icons displaying on the selected unit, despite a bad link in the chain to the unit's own immediate superior HQ.

[womble]

Hmmmm... yeah. If it's true that there's no system in the game for reconstituting HQs between battles...

As I understand it, the campaign system has a percentage chance defined for various elements of the forces in the CUF to get resupply and/or replacements. HQs are just included in this, so you might well get unlucky (or if there's no replacements as, for example, between Razorback Ridge and La Haye du Puits) and not get your HQs rebuilt.

[ASL Veteran]

I don't think that either the commander or the commandee can be moving or hiding to maintain your C2 link. This may dependent upon what difficulty level you are playing at too.

[YankeeDog]

As I understand it, the campaign system has a percentage chance defined for various elements of the forces in the CUF to get resupply and/or replacements. HQs are just included in this, so you might well get unlucky (or if there's no replacements as, for example, between Razorback Ridge and La Haye du Puits) and not get your HQs rebuilt.

Yeah, I get it. I'm just pointing out that this creates the (IMHO unrealistic) possibility for a platoon to remain "headless" multiple successive battles, which I don't think is realistic at all. Ideally, even if replacements are set at 0%, given at least an hour or two to rest and reorganize, a platoon should reconstitute an HQ between battles -- if the platoon CO is hors de combat and no replacement officers are immediately available, usually the senior most platoon NCO would become acting platoon commander, and other command assignments would be shuffled accordingly. While non-standard, I have also read of incidents where the Company XO was temporarily "demoted" to command a platoon, if needed. Over the short term, I guess it was easier for a Company to function as a combat unit without the XO, rather than without one of its platoon commanders.

One exception would be if a platoon were leaderless and had also taken very high casualties amongst its enlisted ranks, in which case the survivors might simply be put under the command of another platoon HQ.

I respect that all this is probably a difficult thing to code, as ideally what the game should usually do is shift one of the leaders from some other unit to reconstitute the HQ, but I think some kind of fudge or abstraction would be a welcome addition to the game here -- The vast majority of the time, Somebody would step up to the leadership position between scenarios. They might be less competent and qualified than an actual 1st Lieutenant (or not...) but the military command structure abhors a vacuum, and reacts accordingly.

[Erwin]

"The only indicator will be the close voice/visual icons displaying on the selected unit, despite a bad link in the chain to the unit's own immediate superior HQ."

I understand that. However, there was no visual or shouting symbol even when the Co CO was sitting having coffee with the leaderless platoon. (Yes, he was I Co HQ and they were I Co Platoons.)

I did cheat a bit and went to the next scenario (Razorback Ridge, "Courage & Fortitude" campaign), and the two leaderless platoons did finally get a platoon HQ each. But, both platoons were leaderless for the entire Bumper Cars scenario having had the HQ's KIA in the previous scenario (School of Hard Knocks).

I have noticed that there is a green light next to one of the Co CO's now. So, maybe it takes a few turns for him to take over.

(BTW: I have read on these forums someplace that the C2 links and green/red lights do not work as described in the manual and above.)

Great campaign though. I will probably go back and replay Hard Knocks. Altho' once you know where the enemy FO is and kill him, 90% of your problems are over. Then I will play the direct route option scenario (I chose overland, hence the Bumper Cars scenario I am in now.)

[Michael Emrys]

...I have also read of incidents where the Company XO was temporarily "demoted" to command a platoon, if needed.

In the US Army, it was not uncommon for a lieutenant to get sent down from battalion or even regimental staff to take over a platoon if there was no one else available.

They might be less competent and qualified than an actual 1st Lieutenant (or not...) but the military command structure abhors a vacuum, and reacts accordingly.

To remind you of something I suspect you already know, platoons were normally commanded by second lieutenants (butterbars), while the company XO was expected to be a first. In practice however, people got shifted around according to who was available and where the need was greatest. In fact, it was not at all uncommon for officers all up and down the grades to be handling the job that according to the book should be the responsibility of someone one, or even two, ranks higher. This was even more pronounced in the German army.

Michael

[akd]

"The only indicator will be the close voice/visual icons displaying on the selected unit, despite a bad link in the chain to the unit's own immediate superior HQ."

I understand that. However, there was no visual or shouting symbol even when the Co CO was sitting having coffee with the leaderless platoon. (Yes, he was I Co HQ and they were I Co Platoons.)

Unless the HQ is in a vehicle, this sounds like a bug, but we would need a save or clear screenshot to confirm.

I have noticed that there is a green light next to one of the Co CO's now. So, maybe it takes a few turns for him to take over.

. No, there is no significant delay for temporary command once in range, but as stated above, the command chain display (green lights) always shows the status of the normal chain of command.

[Erwin]

Ok, I saved most turns so I should have one for you. Where to send?

[akd]

Ok, I saved most turns so I should have one for you. Where to send?

PM me (upper right corner of forum) and I will give you my e-mail.

[Erwin]

Ok PM sent.

[Erwin]

Am beginning to suspect the CMBN C2 system is currently broke.

As I mentioned, in playing the otherwise excellent "Courage and Fortitude" campaign, I had a number of my platoon HQ's KIA in the "School of Hard Knocks" scenario. I found that neither their Co nor XO HQ's were able to give them C2 in that scenario or in the following scenarios in which the leaderless platoons appeared.

However, I thought that in succeeding scenarios the platoon HQ's were slowly being replaced. I now believe I was mistaken. After "Bumper Cars" and "Ridge" I am now in the final "La Haye" scenario and the leaderless platoons STILL have not received replacement HQ's.

While I am still enjoying the game and eking out victories without HQ's, it's amazing that after all this development time, BF has come up with a C2 system that is horribly complicated and non-intuitive, and apparently does not work properly... and I am finding that C2 does not seem to matter much either.

All that was wrong with the CM1 C2 system imo was that occasionally one would have an on-map mortar get hijacked by a passing HQ. And yes, it wasn't good that any Co or Bn HQ could command any other unit regardless of Co affiliation.

Can only hope this C2 issue gets fixed or done away with in following patches as it seems more trouble than it's worth re any obvious beneficial effect.

[Mad Mike]

Am beginning to suspect the CMBN C2 system is currently broke.

I think it is maybe not broken, but there are currently some parts missing, especially when playing campaigns.

I also lost a platoon commander while playing C&F (honestly, who hasn't ) and the commander slot in the platoon HQ never got refilled, meaning that 3rd platoon was not in command for the rest of the campaign.

What should have happened, not necessarily during the battle, but between battles, is that the highest rank in the platoon should have been transferred from one of the other squads to take that slot. This obviously has knock-on effects on the squad as well, because now a squad leader has to be filled from within the squad. It's like a replacement cascade, which becomes larger depending on the level of the HQ slot that has to be refilled. But this is actually (from all accounts, history etc. I ever read) what happened in real life, if no outside replacements have been received.

Outside, fresh replacements are handled via the camapign script, which for C&F is in the range between 1% to 50% Refit for units. According to the manual, this "is the percentage chance an individual unit has of being completely replaced if lost". This is a quite strange wording in itself, as it implies something different from what I've experienced, i.e. that units receive partial replacements (4 men lost in the squad - 2 become replaced between battles).

For C&F, the values between the battles are always 25% at maximum, except for after the Crossroads scenario, when it is 50%. This could mean that a 3 men platoon HQ never gets replaced after the battles it fought in, because the replacement (refit) threshold for even one man would be 33% (1 out of 3), so 25% would only give you an replacement of roughly 0,75 of a man. Which means that the only time you would receive at least one man as a replacement would be if the refit value would be higher than 33%. Which it isn't, for most of the time (you can check this for yourself with the tool I wrote, the CMBN Scenario Organisor, see my sig below). Also, that would imply that it is easier to refit units with lots of men in them, as the percentage representing one man becomes lower for bigger squads - which yields the strange result that lower level units get replaced but HQs are left decimated. There seems to be no priority implemented.

At least this is my understanding of the current system, any corrections to it would be welcome, as most of it is either very poorly or not at all documented - quite strange for a 4 year old game engine.

The replacement cascade I described earlier I think is not implemented (and not designed) at all, probably because it was too involved to do. It would be realistic to do this, though. Maybe some other time / game.

[Blackcat]

I don't think the C2 system is broken. There is an issue about replacing HQ's in campaigns and Mad Mike explains it well. How often that problem occurs depends very much on one's style of play and a bit of luck (the only time I have suffered HQ losses is when the units have been caught in a mortar barrage).

Mr. Erwin questions whether C2 matters very much in the game. Well, if it doesn't I don't see why he is bothering to make such a fuss about it but leave that aside. In my experience units out of command tend to be far less effective, break more quickly and are less well informed about the location of enemy units and, just as importantly, fail to inform others of location of enemy units.

If my ageing memory can be relied upon I am sure that BF have said on numerous occassions that the C2 model is at the heart of the game (relative spotting etc.). With the exception of replacing KIA HQs in campaigns, it seems to me to work as intended.