SteveP Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 General Collins told General Bradley that it was as bad as anything he had encountered on Guadalcanal. General James Gavin of the 82d said, “… none of us had really appreciated how difficult they would turn out to be." Others compared it to fighting in “Indian country.” The standard view was that the bocage was unlike anything the American army had ever faced. None of their tactical doctrines seemed to work here. “Bocage aux Folles” now at the Repository is my attempt to design a scenario, using realistic force complements and ratios, played against the AI, that might present this kind of challenge to the experienced CM player (including those who think the AI could never present a serious challenge). Some specifics: 1. It is fictional. It’s just another day in the life of an infantry company during much of June 1944. 2. It is company-sized. Companies fought their way through the bocage in virtual isolation from one another. There might be a company on one side or the other, but you couldn’t do much to help each other. You had to make your own way from hedgerow to hedgerow. 3. It is infantry only. The army had not yet figured out a way to effectively employ tanks in this terrain. 4. The various maps and briefing text don’t do much more than fill space, but the Designer’s Notes are my attempt to explain what is going on in the scenario design. It does not contain any spoilers. 5. It is designed only for play as the Americans vs. the AI. I do not believe it possible to script an AI plan for the American side in a scenario like this. The AI has multiple plans. I believe this scenario could be played many times and you would never be certain exactly where the Germans were deployed and when you would run into them. OTOH, I have tried to avoid doing anything to help the AI that might be considered “gamey.” 6. The only major compromise on realism is that you have unhampered access to your company and battalion mortars. In reality the Americans found that they could not effectively or safely employ any of their artillery assets in close support in this terrain. On the other hand, time to complete the mission is limited. You don’t get all day. So, is it hard to beat this scenario? Well … Your objective is only a half km of farmland away from your start line. You have a more than 3-1 force advantage. You have your mortars. The Germans have no bunkers, trenches, foxholes or wire obstacles. The AI is running the defense. How hard could it be? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Oooooooohhhhhhhhh... You've thrown down the gauntlet. I'll check it out when I get home. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 “Bocage aux Folles” now at the Repository...... Ha ha. Best title ever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tofke Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 "Bocage aux folles" Mwaaaahahahahahahaha ! very good playwords... Tofke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalbrew Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I started this scenario, seems OK so far with one gripe. I assume the farmers have some elaborate crane and hoist system in place to get the plow and harrow into each field? Do the oxen resent having to bust bocage to enter the fields? In other words, the landscape seems a bit contrived towards fighting a war vs farming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 I assume the farmers have some elaborate crane and hoist system in place to get the plow and harrow into each field? Do the oxen resent having to bust bocage to enter the fields? I'll let you research the farming practices of Normandy. In the meantime, the simple answer to your question is that there are only two possible openings in the bocage in CMBN: soldier size and tank size. I would hope that people understand that there could not have been very many tank size openings in the bocage in 1944 (regardless of what you may see in other scenario/campaign/QB maps ). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Bocage aux folles" Mwaaaahahahahahahaha ! very good playwords... Tofke What does it mean ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rake Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 What does it mean ? http://www.lacage.com/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 What does it mean ? Hedgerows of enemies like this http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SPiXw5GnEr0/SmTrpqzcUpI/AAAAAAAAAC4/9CBzfmkcKeg/s1600-h/herr+flick.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Better come up with another name, Steve. It's diverting attention from your scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 So far, ive found myself guessing where the enemy troops are quite easily... i will, however, go nuts about the fact that the AI can put his off-map artillery on my troops faster than i can put my on-map mortars on him :/ it means i have to constantly relocate my troops, whitch is a pain in the arse and doesnt feel historically accurate to me (ive heard so many quotes from german generals about how envious they were of the americans fast artillery support) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic viking Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I know little about the conditions in Normandy. My questions would be: Did an infantry company really have no demolition charges to use in the bocage? Is the bocage so dense that people can’t go through it at all at most locations? This map seem to have fewer ways to pass through the bocage any of the other maps I have been using. Which makes for great channeling tools if you are the defender, but make me feel a bit like a rat in a mace as the attacker. Not saying it is wrong, just wondering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'll let you research the farming practices of Normandy. In the meantime, the simple answer to your question is that there are only two possible openings in the bocage in CMBN: soldier size and tank size. I would hope that people understand that there could not have been very many tank size openings in the bocage in 1944 (regardless of what you may see in other scenario/campaign/QB maps ). Thanks for the scenario - great work indeed - but I do share metalbrew observation. Regarding tank size openings: one thing is that there is a tank sized opening leaving you to enter a field, but another thing is that there is yet another opening that allows you to go in the direction you want to go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Did an infantry company really have no demolition charges to use in the bocage? Historically there was something of a shortage of blasting charges relative to the number of breaches that needed to be blown at the time. This was one thing that led to the development of the Cullen plow. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Historically there was something of a shortage of blasting charges relative to the number of breaches that needed to be blown at the time. This was one thing that led to the development of the Cullen plow. Michael True, Mr. Emrys. I am sure I read somewhere that there wasn't enough explosive in the allied stockpile to blast all the holes that would be needed, even if there was the time. The amount of explosive needed to blow a decent hole in a ten foot high, six foot thick earth bank reinforced with two hundred years of tree roots should not be underestimated. Nor should the length of time that would be needed to set up such an demolition charge. In many ways the problems presented by the bocage hedges have been greatly understated in the game. My engineers can turn up at a section of high bocage and inside two minutes blast a hole in it big enough for a tank to drive through and use just two demo charges in the process. Realistic? I don't think so. However, it is just a game and some allowances have to be made for playability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks for the scenario - great work indeed - but I do share metalbrew observation. Regarding tank size openings: one thing is that there is a tank sized opening leaving you to enter a field, but another thing is that there is yet another opening that allows you to go in the direction you want to go. If there were tank-sized openings in the hedgerows in Normandy, there would have been no problem for the American army. In order for the Americans to make any kind of progress thru the bocage, they had to solve two problems: mobility for the tanks (that is, getting tanks thru each hedgerow and on to the next hedgerow -- think of the rhino and other adaptations) and coordination between tanks and infantry at the platoon level. I am a bit surprised that people even think there should be larger openings in the hedgerows, but I have discovered that this is not uncommon on a lot of CMBN maps, so maybe that is why folks are surprised not to see them on this map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 it means i have to constantly relocate my troops, whitch is a pain in the arse and doesnt feel historically accurate to me (ive heard so many quotes from german generals about how envious they were of the americans fast artillery support) The fact that you can use artillery at all is what is unrealistic about this scenario. Keep in mind this is a prepared defense. There is a serious underuse of TRPs in bocage defenses in other CMBN scenarios/campaigns (IMHO). In reality, the Germans had every inch of a bocage field figured out before the Americans ever got there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 IThis map seem to have fewer ways to pass through the bocage any of the other maps I have been using. Which makes for great channeling tools if you are the defender, but make me feel a bit like a rat in a mace as the attacker./QUOTE] Imagine what the real life commander of Charlie Company felt? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 In many ways the problems presented by the bocage hedges have been greatly understated in the game. I'd agree there, but there are ways for designers to improve the resilience of Bocage. My engineers can turn up at a section of high bocage and inside two minutes blast a hole in it big enough for a tank to drive through and use just two demo charges in the process. Realistic? I don't think so. However, it is just a game and some allowances have to be made for playability. I read on another thread in this place that one of the early 'field adaptations' which helped get through a bocage with less than a half-hundredweight of TNT was 'bomb pipes' welded to the front of tanks which cut a hole a couple of feet deep into which a sensible sized charge could be placed to be tamped for greater efficiency. As to tank-sized gaps, every field would need at least one gap large enough to drive a cart or herd of cattle through, else it's not a field, it's a garden I'm pretty sure a tank could widen such a gap relatively easily - a Sherman is less than 9 foot wide and most cart axles look 6 feet long or more, even for a little one. Gouging a couple of feet off the end of a bank is always going to be easier than trying to force a tank-wide gap. The problem would be that the gaps would be there for agricultural purposes, and would most of the time not be oriented in the way the americans wanted to travel. And the ones that were would be prime candidates for mines and registered artillery. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 True, Mr. Emrys. I am sure I read somewhere that there wasn't enough explosive in the allied stockpile to blast all the holes that would be needed, even if there was the time. The shortage appeared after the army figured out a method for deploying explosives to create openings for the tanks. Keep in mind that even then they had to figure out a way to protect the engineers while they were preparing the section of hedgerow for blasting. That meant they had to fully suppress the enemy on the other side first. It is very difficult to make this realistic in CMBN. Also, they never considered blasting holes in the hedgerows so infantry could get thru. However, if anyone wants to go into the editor and change any of the existing openings to be larger, feel free to do so (I don't think that would mess anything up, but I haven't checked). You may run into some unintended consequences, however. The small gaps do make it easier for you to deploy safely behind your own hedgerow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I played a hair-raising ten minutes of this last night. I appreciate the defender's (seemingly) liberal amount of TRPs, within five minutes my starting road was being hit by howitzers, more scenarios should light a fire under your ass in this way. I wormed a few scouts far enough forward to discover the first clutches of defenders, and had an interesting four-minute firefight with three of my guys behind a low wall and three defenders on the first floor of a house, and I doubt any of them would have been ungrateful for the protection offered by these oft-maligned positions; one of the Germans got potted through the window after a couple of minutes but it stalemated once the German MG un-suppressed with no further casualties. For reasons I wont elaborate on (spoilers) I wasn't too keen on reinforcing or advancing any further, I just couldn't make my guys do it (I might go back and wait - yawn - for my support to arrive, then I might not). I fear this one has crossed the line into sadism, though some may like that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 I fear this one has crossed the line into sadism, though some may like that Realism, sadism. Tomato, tamahto. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 In this case I'm gonna sit back for a while, whine about the lack of engineers, and hope one of my sister-companies has more success! This game has made me terribly adverse to casualties... what happened to me, I used to be so ruthless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Yup, Steve, you've designed one tough scenario. SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS ( ( ( ( ( Appreciate the hints in the designer notes concerning arty. Knew it was going to be filled with trps. What I DIDN'T anticipate was that a single sniper could break an entire platoon (yes, 3 squads) in a wheat field when using two squads to pin with fire and advance with a third. How in the hell does that happen? Is the sniper team elite / fanatic or something? My boys can only manage to run in panic and land on, apparently, trps. Probably two squads are already KIA in that field and they couldn't have advanced 200 meters from the berm. Found the farm road filled with mines as well. I anticipated an ambush somewhere on that road, the most obvious place being at whatever action spot was isolated from support due to the curves in the road (no disappointment there). The idea that a mine or two would be lurking somewhere on the map was an accepted risk as well, but mutiple hedgehogs on a dirt road with, what? a half dozen mine tiles? I've noticed through studying LOS, there are depressions in the fields and I anticipate you've got some prime reverse slope kill zones there are well, though I have no intention of finding out. My solution to this scenario would involve napalm; lots and lots of napalm. This one just looks too stacked against the player to entice further play. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 In this case I'm gonna sit back for a while, whine about the lack of engineers, and hope one of my sister-companies has more success! This game has made me terribly adverse to casualties... what happened to me, I used to be so ruthless I was single-handedly responsible for what can only be called abject criminal negligence...hell, let's call it what it is, murder...of two complete squads in about two minutes in another game last night (Vierville) through damn bad placement at an obvious pre-registered arty spot. I will most certainly and deservedly be court martialled and shot for such deriliction of duty. But as for SteveP's "Guadalcanal" it was very tough and a whole lot of fun. I just kept trying fire and movement tactics, trying to move up the flanks. I didn't do that well. But I enjoyed it alot. Good one, Steve. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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