Gen Von Television Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 This is a more explicit thread I hope would help the developers to gather a more focused intel on what in the game play mechanics may be changed, improved, corrected, etc. Please do not come here writing you would like to see Goliath in action, or the MPs gathering prisoners (we all do... i'n it?), but try to focus on problems of playability versus realism; I particularly call on all the experten and veterans coming especially from CMX1 since they are more accustomed to WWII weapons and tactics, but even the SOF Elites may say their opinion. I'll start summarizing what has been already wrote in a few other threads: # The Goliath in Action blowing up the Pershing advancing tanks! # A Battalion of MPs marching 100.000 PoW to a confinement camp! # A mecho tuning those carburetors in the middle of the battlefield, but he cannot hear well and fine tune... err... no! Again, seriously: # LOS tool would be much needed: as pointed out by Sitting Duck here with some other interesting points... # Editable Movement Paths are sorely missed, and has already been discussed: I'm aware of that too, BUT in IMO the fact that you leave all the choices to AI to decide how to move YOUR men is too gamey for me; it's feeling like since you can do little about it, then you accordingly do exactly that: do little to explore the terrain, decide the approaches, fix the final positions. Why? since in the end AI will do all for you, mainly with disastrous results, and hiding this truth from you! That is, you cannot even check what the AI has calculated as the best path... # Armour Arc are essential, since seemingly the AI cannot distinguish between a tank and a duck; last night I've witnessed one of the silliest move, and here is my testimony: in Tutorial Raff II I ordered the bazooka team to stealthy crawl to the far left hedgerow and use their weapon against the HT 90 deg to them; the HT was already engaged frontally by the second AT team in the default hedgerow corner. As soon as the Bazooka men reached the left hedgerow bend they started to fire the carbines and were spotted by the HT that turned its front to them firing, while the two grunts with their assigned Target Arc were still firing the carbine, and when finally shoot the bazooka, they missed very high... # Those darn [?] markers are driving me nuts! You're always chasing them ghosts in the hedgerows only to discover that since you have selected the buttoned up tank, he is blind as a bat, and cannot see anything, not even the nearby squads that have already cleared all those hedgerows signaling the ALL CLEAR!?! Really... If you adhere strictly to this mechanics, then the whole map beyond some distance should be invisible, since they may have studied some maps and pictures before the advance, but the ground perspective would be quite a different thing: I fear the whole map should be invisible, marked by a giant [?] marker, and as soon as they pass a place, even the terrain where they come from would disappear, since they also have a very bad memory. Another testimony: back to Tutorial Raff II as I sent my squad to gather those prisoners with the AT gun, as soon as I left the place, that same well known and examined abandoned gun return to be a menacing [?] marker, even for that same squad who was there one minute before... I would really appreciate some fix on this issue, if possible. Over... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 # Those darn [?] markers are driving me nuts! You're always chasing them ghosts in the hedgerows only to discover that since you have selected the buttoned up tank, he is blind as a bat, and cannot see anything, not even the nearby squads that have already cleared all those hedgerows signaling the ALL CLEAR!?! Really... If you adhere strictly to this mechanics, then the whole map beyond some distance should be invisible, since they may have studied some maps and pictures before the advance, but the ground perspective would be quite a different thing: I fear the whole map should be invisible, marked by a giant [?] marker, and as soon as they pass a place, even the terrain where they come from would disappear, since they also have a very bad memory. Another testimony: back to Tutorial Raff II as I sent my squad to gather those prisoners with the AT gun, as soon as I left the place, that same well known and examined abandoned gun return to be a menacing [?] marker, even for that same squad who was there one minute before... I would really appreciate some fix on this issue, if possible. Over... Are you saying that you want to get rid of relative spotting or do you want more intelligent feedback from the markers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 I know this issue may be complex matter to tackle: once a unit is known, or a place has been cleared, there should be a way to signal to adjacent troops about that... For example in the case of that AT gun, at least for the squad that has captured it, it should be known hereafter! And to other units coming in contact with that squad, it should become known as well... BTW that same squad who captured the abandoned AT gun: how it comes they cannot Acquire it? I even drove a Jeep there to drive the piece away to another position, but I wasn't able to figure out if that was possible at all. I know that especially AB troops were trained to use the enemy's weapons, as i.e. happened at Pegasus bridge with the famous AT gun the Germans left and the Red Devils used to try to bomb out the sniper from the water tower... Maybe I'm missing the right procedure here, but # Capture & Use Enemy's Weapons & Vehicles [Aquire]? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I know this issue may be complex matter to tackle: once a unit is known, or a place has been cleared, there should be a way to signal to adjacent troops about that... For example in the case of that AT gun, at least for the squad that has captured it, it should be known hereafter! And to other units coming in contact with that squad, it should become known as well... That markers should probably be removed for the capturing unit yes. To signal to other units you just need to make sure there is a C2 link. It takes some time but eventually the info gets there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymru Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I understand there are real technical problems: but I would love to see the return of random QB maps.Maybe there is a compromise. If there is a current map with specific objectives, and therefore an AI plan in place, could the remainder of the map be randomized? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Herr, Television, For what is is worth, my take on your points in reverse order: Those "?" markers These function as intended and are a direct result of the realtive spotting rules. Keep your chaps in C2 and you will have fewer problems. That ain't going to change. Armour Arc Yes, wouldn't it be loveley. However, Steve has said on this forum that it is not going to happen before the Bulge game. By all means chomp your gums about it, but you will be wasting energy. Unless BF change their mind it ain't going to change. Editable Movement Paths Some people see these as desperately important, others don't seem to feel their loss. However, given that they weren't in CMSF, haven't made it into CMBN and there are, if you think about it, some serious coding and UI issues that would have to be addressed (issues that didn't exist in CMx1), I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Its probably much easier, and less frustraing, to learn how to "drive" with the tools we have. LOS Tool There is a compromise already in the game, as you have noted. My frustration with it is that it doesn't seem to take account of the height of the unit. For example in a current game I plotted up a brilliant ambush based on MGs and light mortars having LOS/LOF from a particular line. When it came to it the mortars had LOS/LOF but none of the MGs did. Much bad language. If BF were to provide a roaming LOS tool it would have to provide options for differing spotting heights and also take into account that for many units the centre of the sqaure is not where their LOF will be drawn from. If I have a tool that says I have a LOS but when I get there I don't have a LOF is it worth having? More to the point is it worth the effort that would be necessary to code it (instead of getting with something really worthwhile - like making HMGs behave like HMGs)? All the best 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 That markers should probably be removed for the capturing unit yes. To signal to other units you just need to make sure there is a C2 link. It takes some time but eventually the info gets there. I can see that, but at least the squad that capture a gun even after moving away, should know what is there, and not just a [?]... If a Tank is surrounded by his own squads that just cleared those hedgerows, why selecting it you just have a bunch of [?] inside those same hedgerows again? In WWI as now tanks can communicate with the nearby sloggers by an external intercom, if not by plain howling and hand signs: knock knock, anybody at home? We have cleared those hedgerow five minutes ago... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Blackcat, I can see your points, but for my money these issues are quite relevant to the realism of the resulting actions: they make me feel more like a SIM and not just a game; in CMX1 I appreciated very much the accuracy of the depiction of confusion and unpredictability of a battlefield, but nevertheless I spent my time trying to accurately plan my moves. I'm not either a fan of RT games, and I doubt I will ever use CMBN in that mode, but since I'm also not so predictable I may change my mind... I have bitter and griming experience about the height problem as I moved some HQ sections to the second floors of buildings to have a better view to direct the mortar fire, only to discover they were unable to do so, but still suffering heavy casualties from the enemies firing at them: is this AI cheating on you? That is possible... What is your problem with HMGs? I only encountered some MG42 and they seemed to act as they were in CMAK or CMBB, but still I had used only the MMG given to the paratroopers, and the Sherman tanks MGs sounded as usual: please explain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.X Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 First of all, CMBN is a great game, the best I have ever played ! But some small details are not pefect IMO: - There are no flamethrowers - there are no burning houses or burning fields/woods - there´s no really heavy fog on the battlefield - it is not possible to move POW´s - tanks and other vehicles roll over humans or AT-guns without any result And the customs has encashed my steelbox :mad: Regards Mr.X 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Mr.X where are your Customs? I also had considerable delay receiving my steel box, but eventually they puked it out albeit make me paying further dues... I agree CMBN is amazing under many aspects, so this thread is not to criticize or undermine it as a valid and purposeful piece of code: I only hope the developer may get some useful feed backs and act accordingly eventually, and so I'm not holding my breath either. Now that you did point that out, yes I also miss the fire effects and noticed those tanks rolling over the infantry without any consequence: maybe when they will release the Ost Front module, we should have the T34s making mayhem of the Romanians using their tracks, as it happened at Stalingrad when they broke their line of defense... But do not hold your breath either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMO Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 CMx1 old fart here, to make it simple: 1) FIRE, from the tactical view and the eyecandy...a battlefield without burning landscape denies the right war feeling of the game. The game lacks inmersion beacuse everything looks way too clean and neat. 2) LOS TOOL, why not? we have used and it works just fine. 3) ARMOR ARC, this is a must...I dont buy the supress thing, AT team firing garands and mp's instead of shreck/bazooka? cmon this has to be done correctly. I love this game, it is a whole new canvas but you just cant take away what has been given to you for so long. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Blackcat, I can see your points, but for my money these issues are quite relevant to the realism of the resulting actions: they make me feel more like a SIM and not just a game; in CMX1 I appreciated very much the accuracy of the depiction of confusion and unpredictability of a battlefield, but nevertheless I spent my time trying to accurately plan my moves. I'm not either a fan of RT games, and I doubt I will ever use CMBN in that mode, but since I'm also not so predictable I may change my mind... I have bitter and griming experience about the height problem as I moved some HQ sections to the second floors of buildings to have a better view to direct the mortar fire, only to discover they were unable to do so, but still suffering heavy casualties from the enemies firing at them: is this AI cheating on you? That is possible... What is your problem with HMGs? I only encountered some MG42 and they seemed to act as they were in CMAK or CMBB, but still I had used only the MMG given to the paratroopers, and the Sherman tanks MGs sounded as usual: please explain. The height problem for a LOS tool has nothing directly to do with multilevel buildings. It si to do with height of the spotters eyes above ground. Men who are lying down son't see as much as men who are kneeling who don't see as much as men who are standing and so on. I think there are in fact four heights in use and that excludes the various heights of personnel in AVFs etc. So a generic LOS tool is not likely to be much use, it could well be misleading unless the UI was extended to cope with it. Then there is the problem of where in the action square your troops actually end up compared to the centre of the square which is presumably where the LOS tool would take its view from. The AI don't cheat that I have ever been able to establish. As for HMGs, yes they do function pretty much as in CMx1. That is a big part of the problem. However, I have had my say on this matter in another thread and I am not going to start again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I can see that, but at least the squad that capture a gun even after moving away, should know what is there, and not just a [?]... If a Tank is surrounded by his own squads that just cleared those hedgerows, why selecting it you just have a bunch of [?] inside those same hedgerows again? In WWI as now tanks can communicate with the nearby sloggers by an external intercom, if not by plain howling and hand signs: knock knock, anybody at home? We have cleared those hedgerow five minutes ago... Have you tried unbuttoning your tank? Anyway I agree with you on the knocked out AT gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Yep opening up the tank improves a bit the situation, but not in a definitive way; as they button up again the many doubts return in the ghost chase [?]; the AT gun was intact, and just abandoned: I was thinking they had implemented the possibility in CMX2 to use captured weapons and vehicles; next time I should try at least to disable them with a Blast. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Editable Movement Paths are sorely missed... I must admit that I don't quite get this one. I thought I would since I appreciated movable waypoints in CMx1, but it hasn't happened. The main reason is that for other reasons I prefer not to set movement paths that are going to take longer than one turn to complete anyway. So they tend to be pretty simple for the most part with only one or few waypoints, and if I decide to do the whole thing over again, it is only a matter of a minute or less to correct it. The other thing is that I have a pretty good idea by now of how most of the terrain types are going to effect movement, so I don't get a lot of the AI redrawing my movement paths. And since these paths are shorter in the first place, my units are less likely to wander off very far into dangerous territory. And if they do...well, that's war ain't it? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Here's an odd thing I've been noticing. A Sherman, just to take one example, has a five man crew. In the list of men showing what each is doing that appears in the lower left hand corner of the map, all five are present. Yet if you look at the crew roster in the UI, the radio operator does not appear. This in spite of the fact that that the tank profile has five blue dots again showing five men. So how come one guy is missing from the crew roster? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wego McPbem Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I agree that I don't miss movable waypoints that much but at the very least they would make giving group orders more viable. Not much point in giving them right now when you end up having to delete and re plot most of them. In cmx1 if I wanted to move a lot of units a long distance I would often give a group order and just edit the waypoints to my liking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Here's an odd thing I've been noticing. A Sherman, just to take one example, has a five man crew. In the list of men showing what each is doing that appears in the lower left hand corner of the map, all five are present. Yet if you look at the crew roster in the UI, the radio operator does not appear. This in spite of the fact that that the tank profile has five blue dots again showing five men. So how come one guy is missing from the crew roster? Michael I dunno. But another oddity that I think remember seeing was that under the Damage tab there was no track damage entry for the HQ tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Way to go... to a point! I'm also doing the same as Wego in CMX1 and find it very handy, especially in large battles at Regimental level; here in CMBN I can see the movements are much more limited by the many hedgerows, and eventually one may get used to very short and almost single dotted plots: maybe it's just a matter of being accustomed to this different way of planning movements, but I've seen quite a few instances where movements were completely out of control and dangerous: now I always save one version of the game before the Go and if I notice something weird I reload the phase and re-plot the crazy movements. I see what you mean Michael: just now I've finished the second battle of the Raff Tutorial, and one of the two men section who came from St. Marie Eglise without any reason moved in an open field surrounded by the hedgerows all by himself, while his buddy conformed to my order to go Quick into the opposite direction; the results he got killed right there; I suspected a Berserk hidden routine but reloading the previous turn I found there was an unexpected Quick movement I never actually planned, and oddly enough just for a single man in a section of two? Yes, this is war all right. I still vote for the editable waypoints, not only about their modes, but also about their positions under some obvious limitations as they were in CMX1. One thing that left me very much perplexed is about the Campaign: in this second battle I gave an heavy beating to the Germans, to a point I was almost reaching the Moylan Farm where at the end of the battle I discovered only one squad and one HQ were still alive; it was a massacre as I enfiladed their advancing platoons getting them in the open; they never even reached the outskirts of Fauville, and I even chased them down from the small knob where they had two HMGs. I received some heavy German artillery too but without casualties, since none of my troops were in the destroyed central buildings of the Village 'till the last minute: I believe their observer was very busy dodging the bullets, since I noticed he survived, but was unable to pinpoint any of my positions. So I went one step farther in the Campaign, and loaded the next battle, but to my surprise only half of Fauville was occupied by the Paras, and there were no signs at all of the previous battle; I haven't checked if my troops were still carrying the scars of casualties they had before (as you can read in the manual) but I wonder if the damages on the map always disappear in a Campaign, or is it just because this is a Tutorial Campaign? Hopefully so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I received some heavy German artillery too but without casualties, since none of my troops were in the destroyed central buildings of the Village 'till the last minute: I believe their observer was very busy dodging the bullets, since I noticed he survived, but was unable to pinpoint any of my positions. The German observer must definitely have a problem. Quite a few german troops were killed or wounded by stray salvos, one of which effectively broke up one attempted attack from the southwest. I was beginning to wonder if maybe I didn't have an observer of my own that I hadn't noticed. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finalcut Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 A follow command.Ordering Tank B to follow Tank A would be a huge help from time to time.Especially on the Giant maps where they come in as reinforcements 3000 miles from any action and you want to get 20 vehicles into the fight or close to the fight without doing 4 million clicks of the mouse. Also,road travel seems really Fubared from time to time.Some kind of Follow Road command. And,foxholes that don't look like Chocolate Donuts would be cool.Surprised this has not been Modded yet. Last but not least,basements would be cool,do buildings in Normandy not have basements?Thats the only things I have,I love this game and it totally rocks,but if they could tweak those few things it would double rock. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Sherman Radio operator is also loader Michael. Lose 3 grog points. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 For game improvements. I know that my tank cannot drive down a line of wire fence and knock it down. I have not tried a wooden fence. This seems hightly unrealistic. And to be honest something that beta-testing should have found out and been cured before release. I know there is a problem with Cuilin plow tanks being able to reverse through and destroy bocage which may be being sorted. In my minds eye any deformable structure should have been given special attention on being driven at, though , sideways, backwards and then blown up in many assorted ways. Does not some of this scenery life wire fences exist in CMSF and been tested there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Sherman Radio operator is also loader Michael. Lose 3 grog points. Are you certain that's not the co-driver's job? The list of crew members in the lower left-hand side of the map screen list loader and radio operator separately. Hope you like the taste of crow. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Michael, I had the same problem with the missing crewman. After checking and counting several times I posted about it here and was very embarrassed when I then found that they are actually all there - problem is that in the crew list one of them does not have his function mentioned (forget which one). This causes a kind of optical illusion effect (at least in my brain, and I guess in your brain too), that made me think there were only four weapon symbols there as well. But they seriously are all there, every time, unless one has been made a casualty. Count them pistols again! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.