Needed Implements: what do you feel is lacking, is missing, is buggy?

[dieseltaylor]

Perhaps it is not striaghtforward : ) I have not got Hunnycutts bookn on the Sherman so I cannot be definitive as to whether it is a model or country specific role change.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?15398-Sherman-Crewman-Frank-Dennis-Gent/page2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Firefly

http://www.tanks.net/american-world-war-ii-tanks/m4-sherman-medium-tank.html

http://66.241.252.164/digital-archive//profile.cfm?collectionid=128&cnf=wwII

The job of a radio operator in a tank is obviously to be the radio operator but also, was the gun loader. He... he's the guy who put the shells in the big gun and kept the machine guns running with ammunition. That was primarily the job of the, as we called them then, "radio operator". I served mainly in Sherman tanks. At El Alamein, I was in a British Crusader tank which was phased out after that battle and we had Shermans. They were crew of five. Three in the turret. Turret's only about five feet wide. It's very, very cramped. Very hot, very noisy.

I'm one of the very few people who survived a tank being hit three times. I was hit at El Alamein. It didn't catch fire and we sat there waiting to be blown apart all day and luckily we weren't. And we were able to be towed away at night. Then in a later battle in Tunisia, was again, hit. The tank, didn't "brew up" - as we used to call the catching fire of a tank. And I escaped again. And then had another incident going up the Italian Peninsula on the Adriatic. I was hit again. And I was uninjured. So, I had a very long time on a tank and, you know, not many people survived being hit three times and three separate occasions.

[Gen Von Television]

For game improvements.

I know that my tank cannot drive down a line of wire fence and knock it down. I have not tried a wooden fence. This seems hightly unrealistic. And to be honest something that beta-testing should have found out and been cured before release. I know there is a problem with Cuilin plow tanks being able to reverse through and destroy bocage which may be being sorted.

In my minds eye any deformable structure should have been given special attention on being driven at, though , sideways, backwards and then blown up in many assorted ways. Does not some of this scenery life wire fences exist in CMSF and been tested there?

Good points here: back to the captured intact AT gun, I tried to destroy it using the Blast command, but nothing at all happened: just the nearby wood fence disappeared. Is that AT gun coming from the Outer Worlds, eventually? Or is it a Civilization thing only...?

Anyone here has played a different Campaign than the Raff Tutorial can confirm the map damages are carried over to the next battle? To me it's very important for immersive factor...

Finalcut has some very good point too about the movement: do you recall those huge maps on the Ost Front where you had to move a whole mech reg at Turn 1, and thereafter receiving a reinforcement for each following ten turns? Usually there were a few roads running toward the same direction, and quite a few spots that were very dangerous to cross; so if you were in a hurry and careless, you were just losing the battle before starting it.

I imagine with this movement system on that kind of map and battle, you will spend hours plotting the movements, and replot them as soon as you'll find out that there's no way you have ordered that unit to go there... and click away!

[Magpie_Oz]

Are you certain that's not the co-driver's job? The list of crew members in the lower left-hand side of the map screen list loader and radio operator separately. Hope you like the taste of crow.

LAY OFF THE CROWS ! Close relative of the Magpie you know.

US Army tank crewman 1941-45: European theater of operations, 1944-45 By Steve Zaloga, Howard Gerrard

States that the loader was required to "assist the commander to operate the radio." Pretty logical given that it was in the turret.

The Firefly did delete the bow gunner in favour of more ammo but I am fairly sure the British hull gunner was not the radio operator either.

[LemuelG]

US Army tank crewman 1941-45: European theater of operations, 1944-45 By Steve Zaloga, Howard Gerrard

States that the loader was required to "assist the commander to operate the radio." Pretty logical given that it was in the turret.

The Firefly did delete the bow gunner in favour of more ammo but I am fairly sure the British hull gunner was not the radio operator either.

Not in Kiwi crews at least. The 'Bog' is effectively a spare crewman and the first position to be left vacant in times of need. Operating the radio in a Sherman is the TC's job, the loader is expected to to be qualified as well. My great-uncle graduated from Dingo driver to Sherman loader primarily because of his experience with radio equipment; if 'loader' and 'radio operator' are listed as seperate crew-members in-game it is, in my belief, erroneous.

[Gen Von Television]

So how come one guy is missing from the crew roster?

Possibly because some of the crew members are switching their positions or roles?

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Not!

THE TANK CREW

In no other arm does the individual man play as important a role as in the tank platoon. In the gradually progressing attack of small units of infantry, artillery, engineers, etc., the commander will be able to command his troops personally and to see that his orders are carried out properly. Not so with the tank platoon. The commander is separated from his group. He can not see any of his men face to face, often not even their vehicles. The attack progresses rapidly, and terrain and enemy change quickly. As a result, the commander is not in a position to directly influence the course of battle. Once the attack has started each tank commander is on his own; even the commander of a small tank detachment can transmit orders to his group only by radio or signals.

The individual tank commander must be able to act independently, even without orders. The individual training must therefore, be very thorough and cannot be considered terminated until the crew can act efficiently against any targets on any terrain. The individual training is based upon the complete knowledge of the action of the combined arms and their effect in battle. Above all, every tank commander must be familiar with the structure of a battlefield as most attacks will encounter enemy defense positions. He must be trained to estimate the position of the various enemy weapons and to recognize the terrain most suitable for the emplacement of hostile heavy weapons.

The effectiveness of the tank is due to its speed, its fire power, its armor and its crushing power. To attain the greatest success the tank commander must make use of these four assets jointly or severally. It is important for him to know the effectiveness of the various enemy weapons at different ranges, and his own fire power against such targets from the halted or moving tank. He must be able to decide whether to attack a target from the moving tank or from the halt, or whether to eliminate the threat by crushing it.

The co-operation of the tank crew is of decisive importance. The driver must be able to control his vehicle on any terrain, and the gunner must know how to operate his weapon effectively in any situation. Each man must know enough about the duties of the other crew members to be able to give them effective support at the proper moment.

The tank commander directs his tank according to the orders or the example of the platoon leader, or on his own initiative. He gives his orders to the driver and to the gunner, and is responsible for the co-operation of the crew. The gunner mans the principal weapon of the tank; the success of the tank depends largely on his skill and firing technique. He must know enough about the tactics of an attack to make the correct decisions at the proper moment, even without the order of the tank commander or the example of the platoon leader. He must be able to select the right weapon and ammunition and to use the right firing technique when attacking the various targets. The tank commander is responsible for contact with the section or platoon leader. The driver must assist the tank commander and the gunner in finding targets. The driver must be careful not to disturb the gunner, while he is fighting the recognized target, by turning or applying the brakes abruptly. Generally, the driver will crush targets upon his own initiative. It is up to him to protect the tank from enemy fire by using every available bit of cover. In dangerous situations his quick decisions will often decide the result.

The assistant gunner [loader] serves the weapons, reduces stoppages and if necessary, replaces the gunner. The immediate readiness to fire depends upon his quick action.

The radio operator [bow gunner/assistant driver] serves the radio and the intercommunication system of the tank. When necessary he assists the gunner and replaces the driver or gunner.

Each member of the crew must be able to administer first-aid.

The success of the tank will always be greatest if the crew forms one solid team in which each member contributes his utmost to success.

[LemuelG]

What use is a manual written before the M4 even made it's battlefield debut? The bow-gunner cannot operate a radio he is unable to access.

And isn't adorable that it refers to "crushing power"? Nice

[Gen Von Television]

That is correct:

The radio which was mounted in the back of the turret in British tanks had to be moved. An armoured box (a "bustle") was attached to the back of the turret to house the radio. Access was through a large hole cut through the back of the turret.

So I wonder were was the radio in the US Shermans?

In any case some of the crew members had to switch their role and eventually position to manage all the stations in the tank, hence (eventually) the oddity about the crew actions/roster noticed by Michael.

PS: it seems that the US Shermans had indeed the radio compartment assigned to the assistant driver/bow gunner position

....an extraordinary view of the driver and radio operator's stations. The overall view above shows the driver's (left) and assistant driver's (right stations, with the transmission on the floor in the centre.

Image

[dieseltaylor]

I think that in fact a radio, at one stage at least, was with the co-driver in the Sherman. However we need a Sherman radio grog.

[Gen Von Television]

However it may be pointless, since it is clear that one of the crew had to operate the radio besides having to do another job...

[RockinHarry]

Missing:

Pre battle damage of trees.

I´d wish for shattered, de-leafed tree variations placable in the map editor.

Since the routines are already in the game, it shouldn´t be much of a problem to have them available in the editor.

Could also work like this: Place trees --> Place craters = Damaged trees

[Michael Emrys]

Michael, I had the same problem with the missing crewman. After checking and counting several times I posted about it here and was very embarrassed when I then found that they are actually all there - problem is that in the crew list one of them does not have his function mentioned (forget which one). This causes a kind of optical illusion effect (at least in my brain, and I guess in your brain too), that made me think there were only four weapon symbols there as well. But they seriously are all there, every time, unless one has been made a casualty. Count them pistols again!

I did and you have it right. Yes, all five of the personal weapons are present, but the one for the radio operator is unlabeled. My guess is that there wasn't room for the name in the label space. Maybe they should have called him co-driver instead, which anyway is the name I have most often encountered in writing, followed by bow gunner. Only rarely have I seen him referred to as radio operator. If Patrick is to be believed (I know, we're on shaky ground here ), the function of radio operator was sometimes shifted onto the loader.

Michael

[Gen Von Television]

I believe now I was misled by the quoted picture I linked above, since at close examination of the same you cannot quite detect the presence of any radio equipment in the assistant driver/bow gunner station.

It's even possible some very early M4A/A1 Sherman models had the standard tanks arrangements for the crew as stated in the original document, but I went digging in my books and here's what I found:

Crew was to be five men, three in the turret (commander, gunner and loader/radio operator), and two in the hull (driver and assistant driver/bow gunner). It can be seen that the Americans had adopted the British idea of having the radio in the turret, thus, when necessary, saving a crewman, although the fifth man, the assistant driver, was extremely useful as both bow gunner and a 'jack of all trades'.

You can confirm about the position of the radio observing the bulge on the back of the turret, as well as the mast position on the side of it, or so I believe...

As yet I didn't quite notice the ghost crewman actions in the panel, but I shall be more careful in general to keep an eye in that corner, learning how to rescue wounded crew/squad members. I found sometime I had to send a search party for stranded wounded men left far away from the moving squads... I'm already OCS about controlling movements, but since here you cannot really do that, at least I will take care of my casualties.

[Gen Von Television]

I know, I know: those flags were silly, isn't it? Or so I thought when I first played with CMBO as it was first published: they looked more like cardboard posts; after I installed some of the modded flags (I also made one of those flag Mods) they begun to get a grip on me.

Besides they were also quite useful to understand how the battle was going, or to prevent a sneaky routed stragglers to find shelter in the basement of the main objective, preventing you to rise your flag there; admittedly that was a bit idiotic.

Now it is far better: I won a Total Victory with still forty minutes to go in the Raff Campaign as I was still deluging with hot metal the German HQ position from three different sides, routing them all; even if they were still occupying that same area (the ugly green square) in the end I received the full control of it.

Still another confusing thing is that sometime when you reach an objective the green square disappear and you can reed a feed back message stating just that, but at other times you cannot really be sure, since the green stay lighted there: I suppose that would mean you have still to occupy the area with some unit; hence I would love to see a nice raised flag there, or even one flattened on the ground to signal the fly boys we have conquered that objective.

[Michael Emrys]

Still another confusing thing is that sometime when you reach an objective the green square disappear and you can reed a feed back message stating just that, but at other times you cannot really be sure, since the green stay lighted there...

Yes, that is an odd bit of behavior. I've noticed it too. I wonder what the explanation for it is.

Michael

[Chris Ferrous]

I believe an objective which disappears has been achieved and you need / can do nothing more with it.

This happens definitely with 'touch' objectives which you simply need to pass through and not physically occupy.

I suppose it may be possible that an objective is mutually exclusive so it could be that if your opponent beats you to it then your equivalent objective disappears. Must be possible.

I too was surprised that the RAFF campaign gave me the HQ 'box' objective even though I had yet to set foot in it. Then again the AI Germans were routed and surrendered so I suppose it was fair enough. Saved me playing out the last half hour of time alloted.

[Michael Emrys]

But what GVT and I are talking about is an objective that remains painted on the map even after you have cleared and occupied it.

Michael

[Gen Von Television]

Yep, that may be the case: touch only objectives or occupy and hold ones. In Raff the Flanking German Tanks objective should have been a touch one, and actually gave you no points, or at least that happened to me, since I reached there but no German tank was in sight anyway, so I pressed on... Since I'm on the Mac I still haven't any Modder Toolkit (though I can use the Windows', if anyone would kindly provide me one!) as I would like to give it a try and see if I can introduce some form of signs to identify the objectives, though I fear this may be hardcoded and it needs a far more advanced modder to transform it than my seldom modder experience. Another small thing I can mod would be the TRPs, or at least convert those we had already Modded in CMX1 that were more to my likings.

I can still reed out on my sax...

[Gen Von Television]

Ooops simultaneous answers: maybe they stay lighted on to represent an objective that has to be held to the end, and it makes you aware there may be a counter attack to retake it.

Hence we go back to the flags system...

[Smeel]

First I have to say that I'm extremely pleased with the game, and can't wait for the expansions whenever they will come. For the thread, there might be something amiss, so I will ask this:

Is there a bug with the german Radio operator? I have never seen any german soldier with radio equipment on him, even if he is labeled as one...

[HarryB]

I hope they address the issue of 'steel trees'. In the pbem game I am playing I fired a shell with the 150mm German infantry gun using what the game said was a clear line of sight. What appeared to happen was the shot actually hit the top of a tree and bounced backwards, killing some soldiers who were behind the gun. I have no way to be certain of this, but I don't see anything else that could have fired the explosive round into the troops positioned behind the gun and the timing was absolutely perfect with the shot hitting the top of the tree.

Let's get real here. The tops of trees are usually pretty flimsy, no way should they be able to deflect a round from a 150mm gun. Even if they set off the explosive charge the leaves should all be blown away, along with a good chunk of the tree that set it off.

Make no mistake, this is the best computer wargame I have played, but there are a few warts that could use some Compound W...And ditto about the armor arc, a definite necessity.

[SgtGold]

My quest for improvements is thus:

Onboard artillery should be able to take direction from any unit in voice range. This is particularly true of mortars. There is no reason that a 60mm tube needs an officer or FO to fire a mission.

Mortar units need to be able to abandon their tubes. I've had units run out of mortar rounds but I can't get them to drop the tubes. Mortarmen without bombs are infanrty.

I'd like to be able to toggle on and off the question marks that mark possible enemy forces. I played a CQB scenario and by the middle of the battle the map was full of possible enemy contacts. Very visually confusing and unnecessary.

There is no control of how units occupy a building. They spread out to the point where it's impossible to remain unseen by enemy forces. This makes it impossible to 'sneak' a sniper or FO up into a structure. I should be able to direct a unit into a building without them being seen by every enemy unit within 20 meters. The old CM game had a 'sneak' command, this game should have one too.

[Gen Von Television]

I agree about the sneaking action and also for the mortars' men when out of bombs. As for the mortars to fire without a FO I've seen them firing even without orders so that I had to cancel their chosen target and point to one more important... So I believe this is the same as in CMX1: they fire directly with a LOS, or they need a FO with LOS to the target.

Question marks, question marks, and question marks: reading the manual you can understand why they selected this option, but yes, it's confusing, and sometime very illogical, as I explained before.

Not only they behave very carelessly, but also without any fear: I positioned in SLOW an HQ section to spot an Infantry cannon and direct the mortar fire; the section was supposedly in a good position to hide and observe, since they were on a small elevation inside the woods; so they directed the mortar fire spot on the enemy gun, but also started to shoot them carbine (always with them carbine! The majority of paras used the Garand, a much harder punch) and consequently I had to run them fast from there, losing the perfect observation position; that was brilliant: engaging an infantry cannon (maybe it was 400 m away) with a carbine. A sure way to go to Kingdom Come.

On the same situation I noticed the mortar rounds falling on the tree above the cannon and exploding apparently above them, making casualties: have you ever heard about tree bursts? The same that got Easy Co in the Bois of Foy, where they were blown to pieces by exploding trees... So if that is the case, it's quite realistic, and you can count on that when planning a woods bombardment.

[Jarink]

Mortarmen without ammo are not infantry, they're just useless mortarmen.

[JonS]

Onboard artillery should be able to take direction from any unit in voice range. This is particularly true of mortars. There is no reason that a 60mm tube needs an officer or FO to fire a mission.

In theory any soldier should be able to drive and operate a tank. But, in the real world, it just doesn't work that way.

Mortar units need to be able to abandon their tubes. I've had units run out of mortar rounds but I can't get them to drop the tubes. Mortarmen without bombs are infanrty.

No they aren't. They're mortarmen waiting for more ammo.

I'd like to be able to toggle on and off the question marks that mark possible enemy forces. I played a CQB scenario and by the middle of the battle the map was full of possible enemy contacts. Very visually confusing and unnecessary.

I think you can turn the icons off? I don't think you can selectively turn them off though. If they really bug you that much, maybe you could mod the <?> icon to be transparent. That would get rid of them.

There is no control of how units occupy a building. They spread out to the point where it's impossible to remain unseen by enemy forces. This makes it impossible to 'sneak' a sniper or FO up into a structure. I should be able to direct a unit into a building without them being seen by every enemy unit within 20 meters. The old CM game had a 'sneak' command, this game should have one too.

Sure there is. There is heaps of control over how a unit occupies a building. FAST, QUICK, HUNT, SLOW all have an effect, as do facing orders, covered arcs, and HIDE. If I want to remain unseen in a building I give units SLOW movements from floor to floor, coupled with either a short covered arc or a HIDE.

By the way, SNEAK in CMx1 = SLOW in CMx2.

[Gen Von Television]

Mortarmen without ammo are not infantry, they're just useless mortarmen.

Well, but still can use them... carbine! and make some noise discipline anyway.