Georgie Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I have been reading many posts expressing doubt about tanks firing on the move and hitting their target. I haven't read a response from Battlefront concerning this. Maybe I missed it. I have read a response from Battlefront concerning accuracy of the tank guns but not about accuracy while moving. It seems to me as a layman that it would be next to impossible for a gunner to keep his eye or eyes to the gun sight while moving over a plowed field or even a meadow at ten mph or so while traversing the turret, adjusting elevation and choosing the exact moment to pull the trigger. Maybe I'm wrong. Is this issue being addressed as an item in the upcoming patch or has Battlefront decided that it is a non issue and is correct as presently programmed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I think tank accuracy is way too good. I miss the cat and mouse games you had to play in cmx1, to get your Shermans into position close enough to kill German armor. Now I watch shermans taking out PzIVs at 1000m like it was no problem. I've even had 2 M8 75mm SPs taking out 5 PzIVs at over 800m. Accuracy needs to be dialed down alot. More shells hit than miss no matter what distance or speed of the target or whether your tank is on the move. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG TOW Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 As a general rule all ww2 tanks have to stop and shoot. The target can be identified and acquired on the move but the shot occurs when the tank stops. panthers one example, did have limited gun stabs and could shoot forward, as in 0 degrees, while moving on a smooth surface, but any lateral shots on the move are pretty much a waste. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Just recently I was reading a 1943 75mm gun Sherman gunner's manual. Its only reference to shooting on the move was that it should only be attempted at point-blank range - but it then defined point-blank as under 600 yards. When you view through a Sherman's sight the dot in the circle is the 600 yard aim point, the dot above that is the point-blank point for everything under. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I agree that tanks seem to be way too accurate firing on the move. From what I have read, shooting on the move was only really done when firing harassing fire or shooting at large targets, such as groups of infantry. For one tank to shoot at another from over 500m while moving would be very rare in real life. For that shot to actually hit would be unheard of. Seems as though our Panzers and Shermans have inherited their optics and computer stabilizers from their Leopard and Abrams progeny. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I know there has been other threads on this, but I must agree to the game is totally incorrect as to firing on the move, plus it should be pointed out, that the tanks would stop, then the gunner still needed to adquire sight of the target, adjust the gun before he could fire, again some time is needed for this. In the game, it happens way to fast. As to the accuracy of shots from a non moving tank, I do not agree with it being wrong, it is much better at it than before. It is not hard to hit another tank at 500 meters, now at 1000 meters, exspecially for allied tanks, judging distance and having a clear aim point on many sights would make it hard to get a first hit. but one or two misses, then if they see the shells land, the rest of the shots should have a fair shot of hitting. So I think the cm2 engine does a much better job as to gunner accuracy while stopped. But The old CMX1 engine had a much better logic as to how a tank needed to stop, aim and then fire 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Has Battlefront posted concerning the issue of tank accuracy while firing on the move? If they have could someone please direct me to it. I have searched for it but can't find it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 One thing that seems to be missing from the discussion is how often the hits actually kill. I too miss the cat and mouse games of armour ... and the all out pitched tank battles. To my mind, the issue isn't so much that they are hitting all the time, it's that they are killing all the time. How often do you see a tank round bounce off another tank in CMBN? I have to admit that I haven't got a lot of experience with tanks ... but the little I have has been insta-death from hits... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 The Tank Corp for commonwealth armies prewar and early war doctrinally fired on the move, they rejected the Ceczh 38 tank and underlined that it would be uncomfortable to shoot on the move. So you see British cruisers with guns that were elevated by hand, with the 40pdrs resting on the shoulders of a gunner. They also always had electrically fast traversing turrets. With all these advantages if i remember correctly tests carried out showed that at very best, gunners would hit a tank sized target while moving directly at it was about 40 to 30%. The doctrine proved un workable when fighting hand cranked PIII that moved in diagonals and would stop to aim an shoot. By Normandy firing on the move had been quietly dropped as a central part of the training because it had proven ineffective in North Africa. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Has Battlefront posted concerning the issue of tank accuracy while firing on the move? If they have could someone please direct me to it. I have searched for it but can't find it. They are aware of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 One thing that seems to be missing from the discussion is how often the hits actually kill. I too miss the cat and mouse games of armour ... and the all out pitched tank battles. To my mind, the issue isn't so much that they are hitting all the time, it's that they are killing all the time. How often do you see a tank round bounce off another tank in CMBN? I have to admit that I haven't got a lot of experience with tanks ... but the little I have has been insta-death from hits... GaJ Depends on the tanks involved and their orientation, I've had a 234 AC bounce a 3,7cm round from a greyhound at less than 100m because the 234 was cresting a ride in the road. I've had a PIV survive one of my Shermans hit him on the drivers front plate with a 7,5cm because it was at a 20 deg side angle (I guess) and angled up after half cresting a bocage rise/ditch. If you want to see consistant bounces just fight with or against Panthers, or Jadg Panzer IV's or StuG's at range. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Here is one thread Georgie http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98346 and another http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98191 and I thought there was a third which I posted to ..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 And, of course, how crew experience plays into all of this. Not all gunners are of equal quality, of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Depends on the tanks involved and their orientation, I've had a 234 AC bounce a 3,7cm round from a greyhound at less than 100m because the 234 was cresting a ride in the road. I've had a PIV survive one of my Shermans hit him on the drivers front plate with a 7,5cm because it was at a 20 deg side angle (I guess) and angled up after half cresting a bocage rise/ditch. If you want to see consistant bounces just fight with or against Panthers, or Jadg Panzer IV's or StuG's at range. Good to know. I'll have to find a game where I get the good tanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Just did a test. A Sherman and PzIVH at 2015m standing still. Both tanks were regular quality, normal motivation and 0 leadership. After 30 seconds they both spotted each other and started firing. First 2 rounds from each missed. Then every round hit from both tanks. After 2 hitting rounds from the Sherman the Panzer's Optics and tracks were damaged and it lost view and stopped firing. 3 or 4 more shots and the Panzer was destroyed. I was under the impression that anything over 1000m the Sherman had barely a chance of killing. I have the test scenario I used if anybody wants it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I just brought up the second PzIVH...4 shots from the Sherman all hitting from the same distance. 4th shot = Destroyed Panzer. I will keep testing this but it seems pretty far off to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major SNAFU Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I would like to give your test scenario a try. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I just remade the scenario and tested it with 17 tanks each side. All regular, normal motivation and 0 leadership and all immobilized. After 25 minutes 5 PzIVHs and 2 shermans remained. All tanks that were left had damaged optics and could not see the enemy tanks (I suppose that is why they can't see them). IMHO the Panzers had a huge advantage with their better gun and better optics. It should have been a turkey shoot for them. Another problem that really hurt the M4s was that they kept popping smoke, so that only half of their tanks would be firing. Half of the Shermans were behind smoke so the Panzers zeroed in on the exposed tanks, effectively putting it at a 2to1 advantage for the panzers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Major SNAFU...sent you a private message for your email. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I was under the impression that anything over 1000m the Sherman had barely a chance of killing. I have the test scenario I used if anybody wants it. What gave you that impression? PzIV turret front is vulnerable to M61 APC fried from the M3 gun at 2000 yards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Everything I have read about the low velocity 75mm would lead me to believe it. Are you telling me you think the 75/L38 is as accurate as the 75/L48? Its a matter of accuracy, not whether it can penetrate it. At 2000m it can penetrate 71mm according to cmx1 stats. The turret is 50mm so of course it can penetrate. You would think tankers would aim for the hull at that distance, seeing how the turret is so much smaller. But from over a mile the M4 Sherman was not an effective tank killer by any stretch of the imagination. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 2000m is still within the Sherman's capabilities. Anything over that is where it goes down dramatically. The German guns, on the other hand, do just fine out to around 3000m. The Sherman is a much maligned tank for a lot of incorrect reasons. Compared to a PzIV it's an even match, if not a little better. Compared to a Panther the Sherman is definitely outclassed. Even the 76mm armed Shermans are outclassed. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I agree with you that they aren't as bad as the rep. Sure it is within their capabilities, but at that distance I think the overwhelming advantage goes to the longer more accurate gun. Physics tell me that a longer barrel and a faster projectile with better optics are going to win an even matchup at long range. Most engagements happen much closer than a mile so sure they ended up doing well against the PzIVs in real life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I agree with you that they aren't as bad as the rep. Sure it is within their capabilities, but at that distance I think the overwhelming advantage goes to the longer more accurate gun. Physics tell me that a longer barrel and a faster projectile with better optics are going to win an even matchup at long range. Most engagements happen much closer than a mile so sure they ended up doing well against the PzIVs in real life. Setting tanks up facing each other and then seeing who "wins" is not a valid way to compare the accuracy of gun systems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Sherman 75 gun actually had a reputation as a pretty solid, accurate gun. Patton fought against bringing both the 76mm and 90mm cannons into the theater in favor of the 75 (admittedly he was crazy). 76mm APCR and 17 pounder APDS both had nagging problems with accuracy - like the rounds were either accurate or they went ZOOM! into outer space! Plus their HE rounds were comparatively lackluster. Sherman 75's problem wasn't really accuracy, it was hole-punching power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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