Teams don't carry smoke

[Rocky Balboa]

I notice this weekend as I was playing FMB's excellent Devils Descent campaign. I split a squad to create an assault team then had my assault team bound forward being over watched by the squad.

When the assault team reached its destination it started receiving a large volume of fire so I hit the pop smoke button to try and withdraw. Much to my surprise the squad in over-watch actually popped smoke and not the team. Is this a bug or working as intended?

It makes sense that all teams don't carry smoke so that's understandable but shouldn't the UI disable those buttons/commands for the team if they don't carry smoke? Perhaps this is something that can be looked into for the UI revamp.

[Blackcat]

Just to clarify, were you using the assault command?

[Boche]

As I recall its te squad leader that carries the smoke, atleast thats my experience. Everytive in CMBN or CMSF its either the leader or assistant that pops the smoke

[Rocky Balboa]

Just to clarify, were you using the assault command?

No, it wasn't an assault command it was a quick move as I recall. If the SL is the only soldier to carry smoke then that's understandable and should be that way but if that's the case then all teams should have the pop smoke command disabled (except for the one that has the SL) ... shouldn't they?

[Blackcat]

So you ordered a team splt from the rest of the squad to pop smoke, the team did nothing but someone in the rest of the squad, some distance away, did pop smoke?

I'd say that was a flaw in the game. If a unit (and a team split off from a squad is a unit for every other purpose) has no smoke then the order shouldn't be possible. The fact that it apparently is and causes another unit to carry out an action seems wrong.

[womble]

I pretty much always operate with my squads split into teams.

It's not always the Squad leader's team that shows up as having the smoke. So far as I can remember, there's usually one team out of a 3-team squad that shows the 'pop smoke' command as active, and 2 that don't. So far, the successful smoke pops seem to have come from the team given the command, but I have had one fail (the team spent 3 minutes with the blue (purple? I can never tell) line at "20m") and never did show any smoke, to the detriment of the pinned team they were trying to cover... It's possible that the smoke may have popped somewhere else that I didn't notice, or that the other team which was, like in Rocky's experience trying to smoke had been broken or entirely eliminated (it was a bit of a torrid time for one of the platoons...)

[Renaud]

Good catch...something to watch out for...

If you split off a US SCOUT team, the scout team gets smoke. The squad leader team will also get smoke, so you can potentially have 2 teams with smoke from a single squad. Presumably there are 2 smoke grenades in the squad loadout, so the scout team is (quite sensibly) given 1 of them. Very handy when scouting.

[womble]

Good catch...something to watch out for...

If you split off a US SCOUT team, the scout team gets smoke. The squad leader team will also get smoke, so you can potentially have 2 teams with smoke from a single squad. Presumably there are 2 smoke grenades in the squad loadout, so the scout team is (quite sensibly) given 1 of them. Very handy when scouting.

That's a good tip, me ol' fox...

[DavidFields]

OK, "pop smoke" is new from CM1, and even the term is somewhat foreign to me--and I had no idea that infantry could do that (thought is was an AFV command).

So, I get to ask the obligitory CM1 to CMBN, WW2 aficionado question: Which is more true, this is more a Modern Warfare term/tactic which is now placed into CMBN because CMSF had it, or that CM1 completely missed out on an important simulation aspect? (I sort of asked that about Blast, too--I realize there are some examples, Ortona (?spelling), but still wonder about the general applicability, which will seem even murkier as CM2 moves toward 1942)

For me, this is not a morality, or good or bad, issue. I am just trying to understand the reality of the situation.

[Notice, every post thus far on this thread is from a Senior Member--the ancients have been summoned and awakened!]

[acrashb]

that CM1 completely missed out on an important simulation aspect?

I think this. Because a) the standard loadout of a squad (all nationalities) contained some smoke grenades (whether for obscuration or marking is an interesting debate) and SL had it, so it must have been realistic

[DavidFields]

I think this. Because a) the standard loadout of a squad (all nationalities) contained some smoke grenades (whether for obscuration or marking is an interesting debate) and SL had it, so it must have been realistic

SL= Squad Leader? Really. The board game? I don't remember that. (I do remember the difference between Squad Leader and Panzer Leader is that SL had "reaction fire"--so one could not run your tanks between one clump of trees to another with impunity.)

I would be interested to find out that a standard retreating tactic in WW2 was to through a few smoke grenades to cover it. I would have thought the standard would have been to through a few real frag grenades--but I am willing to be schooled in this area.

[Michael Emrys]

My sense from reading accounts and looking at hundreds if not thousands of pictures is that using hand-thrown smoke for screening was not at all common. That doesn't mean it was never used. I have a sense that when it was used, it was usually in an urban combat situation. If you needed to get a couple of squads across a street that was swept by fire, some smoke could make life a lot easier. The enemy might fire into it anyway, but he'd be firing blind and for all he knew wasting ammo.

Michael

[MikeyD]

I just checked this out. Yup, it appear the squad leader is the guy carrying the smoke grenades. I just split an inf squad - the team with the 'leader' still has the lit smoke command button. I commanded to throw smoke and it was the squad leader (the guy with the thompson) who threw the grenade. So throwing smoke's apparently not 'abstracted', the squad leader's literally carrying and throwing smoke grenades for his squad.

[Macisle]

ASL depicts smoke grenades. Some units have a smoke exponent on their counter, giving them a chance at using smoke grenades during the movement phase. They can expend movement points to try for smoke by rolling a single six-sided die. Roll less than or equal to the exponent and you've scrounged up some 'nades. Some units can be classified as Assault Engineers and get a +2 to their exponent. Battle events can cause a drop in unit quality, however eliminating the exponent and IIRC, no split-squads or teams have smoke grenades.

As an example, German 1st line infantry squads have a smoke exponent of 1 (1 in 6 chance). American 1st line have a 3 (50-50). WP is also modelled. US can try for WP by using a reduced exponent (2 for 1st line). WP provides less smoke, but causes any units in the target hex to take a morale check. Most nationalities don't have WP, except for US.

[beatmasta]

My own experiences with smoke greenades are that they are pretty "useless" (of course there's situations where they are useful) if several of them is not used at the same time. Single one wont obscure the vision in wide area from the enemys side and one wont' give cover for dispersed squad. This is especially true in the winter when the grenade just disappears in to the snow

[Macisle]

Good catch...something to watch out for...

If you split off a US SCOUT team, the scout team gets smoke. The squad leader team will also get smoke, so you can potentially have 2 teams with smoke from a single squad. Presumably there are 2 smoke grenades in the squad loadout, so the scout team is (quite sensibly) given 1 of them. Very handy when scouting.

Thanks! That's goin' right in my SOP bag o' tricks!

[womble]

As I understand it, BFC's understanding of the frequency of issue of smoke grenades in WW2 changed between CM1 and CMBN. They used to think that it was actually relatively rare for infantry to have smoke grenades issued, but have changed their minds upon further research. In the old case, it wasn't worth doing the modelling for the rare cases just so us gamey bastidges could overuse it

[sonar]

This is a pet peev of mine. I would be hard pushed to come up with an account of smoke being used or issued at squad level, for the purpose it is used, in game, in any of the reading i have done. In game I think it should be restricted to engineers and they should have at least two.

The german tank hunters are allocated two and I have experimented in game and had them crawl undetected up to wire in front of a pillbox, blow the wire, run into the crater the blast makes masked by dust and smoke then throw smoke grenades and they are in. The engineers can do this but you can't rely on the one smoke grenade they have giving the coverage needed.

also german breech teams have no smoke ability, which i find odd, given thier task.

A.Beevor D-Day

" The first bombs were dropped on target, but the wind blew the dust and smoke noth across the Periers-St Lo- road, so subsequent waves began to drop their loads short. the forward companies, realizing the danger, trew orange smoke grenades as a warning, but the quantity of drifting smoke and dirt covered them. there was no radio link betwen the ground and heavy bombers".

Here they are cleary to help with ground to air comms, in regard to target identification, so outwith a large planned assault, even if smoke grenades were supposed to be issued, resupply was a problem many units faced and given the choice would you load out the last space on the truck with a box of smoke grenades or a box of handgrenades or ammo, If you are a german defending a villiage in Normandy, why would you need them?

I don't come across accounts of it's use defensively as presented in the game, ever really, so I myself do not beleive it was anywhere near as common as it is portrayed in the game.